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the current state of advanced samplers (not good?) Drum Machines & Samplers
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
Gear Nut
 

the current state of advanced samplers (not good?)

Hello everyone,

In response to the (apparent) new Behringer clone of the 1200 (MATRIXSYNTH: New Behringer SP-2400 Sampler - E-Mu SP-1200 x 2 Clone In the Works?)

I wanted to bring up a couple of topics, and get users' opinions because maybe I'm missing something crucial here.

I've been making electronic music since I was 13, with my first (netlabel) release when I was 15, so I have experience in the field, but this is from about 2003 to the present. I started off with Fruity Loops, and started using Ableton as my main DAW about 4 years ago. Prior to that I had a "hardware phase" where I was trying to find something that would replace computers, but ended up stopping making music completely due various factors, but partly blame the hardware I was using.

I have found myself in another situation recently, where I have been sneaking hardware back, little by little, into my workflow. It has had a few "a ha" moments, but generally speaking, has been a real impediment to my workflow. I am slowly but surely realizing that maybe I should just use Ableton and other software to get what I need to feel like I have as much control (especially over samples) that I need, but I still feel like there is a hardware out there that could eradicate this need for computers, and Im wondering if it already exists, even.

I purchased an MPC Live right when my father passed away, around xmas, and was hoping for so much more than what it ended up being: the lack of modulation options, and the ones that are available are clunky implemented with seemingly little logic behind them (4 serial / discreet LFO lanes devoted to Filter, Pitch, Attack, Panning, with ... sliders that go up to 64? So, 4 simultaneous LFO dests, instead of a matrix where you could cut down on the processing by 1/4, and actually have the option of sending it where you want? This seems so backward and clumsy to me it is insane), and I really feel like it is a SAMPLE PLAYER, and not sampler, and is designed for people who like to take and arrange sounds from sample packs, and who aren't really interested in sound design via sampling. THIS IS NOT ME. I do not feel comfortable taking a sample from a sample pack without altering it in some way. Something about the way that feels is total wrong to me, although I am fine with sampling from sources that aren't intended to be sampled, if that makes any sense. Anyways The octatrack is another option (i had one for a bit), but the workflow is so strangely redundant and not fun to break into, and even so the options are a bit limited.

My question is whether I have missed a historical sampler (im seeing, like z4, and a couple other rackmounts that are possiblities) that takes care of business in terms of creative sample-editing, or if there is one that is in the pipeline that i missed? Because the MPC Live is basically killing my workflow... I hit one flow state with it and have never been able to get back there again for some reason. This is once in literally 6 months.

And I feel like the SP1200 is more of a thing that is charming in its limitations, which is something that I might appreciate from that standpoint, but will never replace Simpler or FLstudios sample window options.

I feel like this is a total sitting duck for the industry, and with the variety of cheap processors available now, it should be INCREDIBLY EASY to create something that wipes software clean as an integrated solution, due to not having to handle a clunky OS with however many operations happening at once. I guess the only thing I'm really excited about was that one post ableton made looking for people familiar with whatever programming language that could be imbedded into a standalone unit. Yes: I have been watching everything very obsessively. haha.

I even bought a RHIZOME second hand (someone please buy this thing from me lol .... its listed on reverb but off topic) ....

Maybe this is just one of those "wishful thinking" threads that might get Uli to look at the needs of those who are / were too young to remember the heyday of 12 second sample memories, and that grew up with simpler / fruity loops sampler being the standard by which other things are judged.

I wish I could just do it myself... bah...

Well, hopefully someone out there is listening... I think this kind of thing would make a killing and would be a boon to all of us who don't feel quite at home ripping sounds from ready-made packs (so much generic, boring tripe out there too... maybe it would lead to more interesting sample packs as well)


Anyways, thats all for now.

Thanks everyone
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
Kja
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by xled View Post
Hello everyone,

In response to the (apparent) new Behringer clone of the 1200 (MATRIXSYNTH: New Behringer SP-2400 Sampler - E-Mu SP-1200 x 2 Clone In the Works?)

I wanted to bring up a couple of topics, and get users' opinions because maybe I'm missing something crucial here.

I've been making electronic music since I was 13, with my first (netlabel) release when I was 15, so I have experience in the field, but this is from about 2003 to the present. I started off with Fruity Loops, and started using Ableton as my main DAW about 4 years ago. Prior to that I had a "hardware phase" where I was trying to find something that would replace computers, but ended up stopping making music completely due various factors, but partly blame the hardware I was using.

I have found myself in another situation recently, where I have been sneaking hardware back, little by little, into my workflow. It has had a few "a ha" moments, but generally speaking, has been a real impediment to my workflow. I am slowly but surely realizing that maybe I should just use Ableton and other software to get what I need to feel like I have as much control (especially over samples) that I need, but I still feel like there is a hardware out there that could eradicate this need for computers, and Im wondering if it already exists, even.

I purchased an MPC Live right when my father passed away, around xmas, and was hoping for so much more than what it ended up being: the lack of modulation options, and the ones that are available are clunky implemented with seemingly little logic behind them (4 serial / discreet LFO lanes devoted to Filter, Pitch, Attack, Panning, with ... sliders that go up to 64? So, 4 simultaneous LFO dests, instead of a matrix where you could cut down on the processing by 1/4, and actually have the option of sending it where you want? This seems so backward and clumsy to me it is insane), and I really feel like it is a SAMPLE PLAYER, and not sampler, and is designed for people who like to take and arrange sounds from sample packs, and who aren't really interested in sound design via sampling. THIS IS NOT ME. I do not feel comfortable taking a sample from a sample pack without altering it in some way. Something about the way that feels is total wrong to me, although I am fine with sampling from sources that aren't intended to be sampled, if that makes any sense. Anyways The octatrack is another option (i had one for a bit), but the workflow is so strangely redundant and not fun to break into, and even so the options are a bit limited.

My question is whether I have missed a historical sampler (im seeing, like z4, and a couple other rackmounts that are possiblities) that takes care of business in terms of creative sample-editing, or if there is one that is in the pipeline that i missed? Because the MPC Live is basically killing my workflow... I hit one flow state with it and have never been able to get back there again for some reason. This is once in literally 6 months.

And I feel like the SP1200 is more of a thing that is charming in its limitations, which is something that I might appreciate from that standpoint, but will never replace Simpler or FLstudios sample window options.

I feel like this is a total sitting duck for the industry, and with the variety of cheap processors available now, it should be INCREDIBLY EASY to create something that wipes software clean as an integrated solution, due to not having to handle a clunky OS with however many operations happening at once. I guess the only thing I'm really excited about was that one post ableton made looking for people familiar with whatever programming language that could be imbedded into a standalone unit. Yes: I have been watching everything very obsessively. haha.

I even bought a RHIZOME second hand (someone please buy this thing from me lol .... its listed on reverb but off topic) ....

Maybe this is just one of those "wishful thinking" threads that might get Uli to look at the needs of those who are / were too young to remember the heyday of 12 second sample memories, and that grew up with simpler / fruity loops sampler being the standard by which other things are judged.

I wish I could just do it myself... bah...

Well, hopefully someone out there is listening... I think this kind of thing would make a killing and would be a boon to all of us who don't feel quite at home ripping sounds from ready-made packs (so much generic, boring tripe out there too... maybe it would lead to more interesting sample packs as well)


Anyways, thats all for now.

Thanks everyone
Yes, is called the digitakt, it is the spiritual successor to the sp1200 and you can really mangle samples.. it's great, don't listen to the haters! Oh no it's mono.. it doesn't remember to chain patterns.. oh no..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
Yes, is called the digitakt, it is the spiritual successor to the sp1200 and you can really mangle samples.. it's great, don't listen to the haters! Oh no it's mono.. it doesn't remember to chain patterns.. oh no..
I had a digitakt, but it also fell short for me. What I missed : advanced slicing, advanced waveform editing, granular modes, comprehensive note modes, etc, not to mention that having to listen to a whole pattern through each time I made a change was annoying to say the least. The sample / sound config was bothersome, and I didn’t like the buttons and their lack of velocity sensitivity. The lack of filters , and effects was also bothersome. I feel like the digitakt is also more of a sample-player than a full fledged , advanced sampler.

Now that I think about it , I really did not click with the digitakt at all. Thanks for the recommendation though... I have heard many people love it and recommend it ! It just isn’t advanced or creative enough for what I’m trying to do.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
mp3
Lives for gear
 

Tasty Chips GR-1?

Edit: the ‘A’ in ASR-10 stands for advanced. And it certainly was for its time. Might not be your cup of tea since it’s old school, but thought I should mention it though.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #5
I just bought an MPC Live also. I just got started with it today, and I've come to similar conclusions. It's basically designed as a beat-box; i.e., a controller for sample packs, as you say. But this is the closest thing I could find to a "sampler" in today's market (I'd prefer not to deal with SCSI interfaces, antiquated storage devices, limited RAM, slow load-times, cryptic GUIs, etc.).

There's another thread here along the same lines. I think a modern rack-mount sampler would be a cool addition to any home studio, but no one seems to think it's worth building. Probably makes sense, since beat-making is incredibly popular, whereas "esoteric" synth-head sample-manipulation/synthesis is I suppose a fairly niche application in comparison.

I think those of us seeking these tools will just have to compromise with a kludge of mis-matched drum machine hardware with tiny UIs, combined with their DAW/plug-in of choice. The 7" touchscreen is what brought me to choosing the MPC Live, but yeah, I think I'm quickly realizing that it's fairly limited as a sampler/instrument. That said, the MPC Live is really fun, and does do a few things that are much more laborious if attempted in a DAW.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
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Praxisaxis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studio460 View Post
I just bought an MPC Live also. I just got started with it today, and I've come to similar conclusions. It's basically designed as a beat-box; i.e., a controller for sample packs. This is the closest thing I could find to a "sampler" in toady market. There's another thread here along the same line. I think a modern rack-mount sampler would be a cool addition to any home studio, but no one seems to think it's worth building. Probably makes sense, since beat-making is incredibly popular, whereas "esoteric" synth-head sample-manipulation/synthesis is I suppose a fairly niche application in comparison.

I think those of us seeking those tools will just have to compromise with a kludge of mis-matched drum machine hardware with tiny UIs, and their DAW/plug-in of choice. The 7" touchscreen is brought me to the MPC Live, but yeah, I think I'm quickly realizing that it's fairly limited as a sampler/instrument. That said, the MPC Live is really fun, and does do a few things that are much more laborious if attempted in a DAW.
The MPC is not so strong as a sample mangler (though there are options if you push it). However, it is very strong as a sample editor. I'd say the best hardware option currently available for this.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7
Gear Nut
 
Schmidi's Avatar
 

Layer, fx, flatten sample, repeat
Old 3 weeks ago
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxisaxis View Post
The MPC is not so strong as a sample mangler (though there are options if you push it) . . .
Thanks, yah, I'm happy for what it is, and the sample-editing is great. I'm definitely going to keep it, and I've only discovered like 0.0001% of its capabilities in the very short time I've played with it today. It's still a very strong product, coupled with Live's 2.0 software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxisaxis View Post
. . . I'd say the best hardware option currently available for this.
Glad to hear you say that, since that's a big reason I chose it over competing options.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #9
Lives for gear
 

When it comes to sampling functionality a PC will never be matched by any hardware sampler (ie a computer with severe software limitations).

You buy a hardware sampler for different reasons.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #10
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Praxisaxis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmidi View Post
Layer, fx, flatten sample, repeat
The other option is to use the XY effects with automation, then export, then chop :-)
Old 3 weeks ago
  #11
Lives for gear
 
midiquestions's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studio460 View Post
I just bought an MPC Live also. I just got started with it today, and I've come to similar conclusions. It's basically designed as a beat-box; i.e., a controller for sample packs, as you say. But this is the closest thing I could find to a "sampler" in today's market (I'd prefer not to deal with SCSI interfaces, antiquated storage devices, limited RAM, slow load-times, cryptic GUIs, etc.).

There's another thread here along the same lines. I think a modern rack-mount sampler would be a cool addition to any home studio, but no one seems to think it's worth building. Probably makes sense, since beat-making is incredibly popular, whereas "esoteric" synth-head sample-manipulation/synthesis is I suppose a fairly niche application in comparison.

I think those of us seeking these tools will just have to compromise with a kludge of mis-matched drum machine hardware with tiny UIs, and their DAW/plug-in of choice. The 7" touchscreen is what brought me to choosing the MPC Live, but yeah, I think I'm quickly realizing that it's fairly limited as a sampler/instrument. That said, the MPC Live is really fun, and does do a few things that are much more laborious if attempted in a DAW.
I love drum boxes, but the MPC Live did not speak to me at all...too limited. I would go for one of the 2000s boxes for better features or a Ren if I really wanted something still in production.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #12
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xled View Post
the (apparent) new Behringer clone of the 1200
Was this actually confirmed?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #13
Gear Nut
 

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Old 3 weeks ago
  #14
Gear Nut
 

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Old 3 weeks ago
  #15
Gear Nut
 

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Old 3 weeks ago
  #16
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosium View Post
Was this actually confirmed?
Honestly , no, but even if it were I would probably be the last person excited unless it came with an updated feature set.

But it seems like Behringer are on a roll with this walking down memory lane thing, reissuing synths of yore that have gone beyond the grasps of the people who remember them due to inflated retro synth folks, ... sadly I’ve not had such memories !!

Also I am on the list for the GR1 but it’s more like a synth module than a full-featured sampling workstation .... although this is what I’m talking about !!!


I’ve also got to say that the lack of any gestural application for the MPC live is pretty sad. Akai are hiding behind the idea that apple will sue them, but look at how many other amazing implementations of touch screens there are now (Samplr, Aparillo , BeatMaker 3, spacecraft , borderlands,,, some of these are revelations!!!!)

I have submitTed an annoying amount of feature requests to Akai but I don’t know if we’re going to see any of them implemented. Some of my favorite are multiple breakpoints drawn by touch to control filter , Fx, and pitch, and also the idea to have bipolar penvelooes that are freely assignable to various mod slots, including sample time for granular manipulation (with multiple granular modes!,,,)

It would also be cool if Akai would do something like aparillo or the rob papen plugs with modulation paths on an XY grid that can be played back in a variety of ways.


I think my favorite higher level MPC live manipulation trick is setting loop points on a wav, turning on the time stretch, setting that to extreme highs or lows, and then using the pitch LFO at extreme , or otherwise settings to get weird glitches,... haven’t really seen many people doing that....

ALSO, you can automate sample offset in the sample window in drum programs, which is kind of like automating sample start point.... this could be cool with note repeat, haven’t tried that yet.

ALSO I like sample start > vel option... this can be quite interesting with the step sequencer and longer samples...

One thing I will say is that I like the fact that you can assign 4 insert effects per PAD!!!! Wtf so clunky and unheard of but opens a lot of possibilities for things... I just wish there was a bit more options for granular or weirdo sound processing in the Fx.... this includes the new fx mind you.


Let’s all bounce on our yogic flying mats and say some mantras about a new all-in-one sampling solution with granular capabilities haha.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #17
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Jones Sr View Post
I disagree with this. I think the actual situation is, a PC will never be matched by any *previous* hardware sampler because PC software samplers are current, in 2019, and no-one has actually made a hardware sampler since about 2004. If they were to make one now they'd have access to SSD storage, cheap as peanuts ram, high resolution OLED screens, fast internal CPUs (e.g. Arm or similar), easy computer integration e.g. SD card or USB mounting.

The actual bit where a software developer creates the internal working structure of what the sampler can do, is something that could equally be built as the firmware of a hardware box. Just as a Cirklon is a high end sequencer found in standalone box with an Arm Cortex inside. Someone has done the work to build the software that runs on that CPU in a box. Same could be done for a hardware sampler. The Akai Z8 back in 2004 was 24/96, and had up to 512mb ram, and a modulation matrix, and can be retrofitted with an SSD. There's nothing that says someone could not make a 2019 equivalent, even incorporating disk streaming to hugely increase the voice count.

The reason nobody makes one is precisely because people keep erroneously saying that software samplers like Kontakt are the ultimate sampler and we don't need any further evolution.

We really do think alike. I think advanced sampling is the next frontier for sound design, and I think a lot of future moinded people willl agree,,,

If only we were software / hardware programmers :]
Old 3 weeks ago
  #18
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxisaxis View Post
The MPC is not so strong as a sample mangler (though there are options if you push it). However, it is very strong as a sample editor. I'd say the best hardware option currently available for this.
The reason I don’t like the mpc as much as I could for sample editing is because in the drum program window there is no play head...

But I really fly on the main sample edit page (this is me )

YouTube
Old 3 weeks ago
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by xled View Post
I think my favorite higher level MPC live manipulation trick is setting loop points on a wav, turning on the time stretch, setting that to extreme highs or lows . . .
Speaking of time-stretch in the MPC Live, is there a way to enter a numeric value or use a higher "step" rather than spinning the wheel three-trillion times to get to, say, 800%?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #20
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studio460 View Post
Speaking of time-stretch in the MPC Live, is there a way to enter a numeric value or use a higher "step" rather than spinning the wheel three-trillion times to get to, say, 800%?
The only way I have found is to manually change the tempo , and it works as a weak kind of multiplier (I.e.; set the supposed sample tempo to 20 bpm, overriding “BPM SYNC” option ) .
Old 3 weeks ago
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Jones Sr View Post
I disagree with this. I think the actual situation is, a PC will never be matched by any *previous* hardware sampler because PC software samplers are current, in 2019, and no-one has actually made a hardware sampler since about 2004. If they were to make one now they'd have access to SSD storage, cheap as peanuts ram, high resolution OLED screens, fast internal CPUs (e.g. Arm or similar), easy computer integration e.g. SD card or USB mounting.
And it still wouldn't be as easy and powerful as in the box... not even close.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #22
Gear Nut
 

...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #23
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Jones Sr View Post
That was the realization I came to, if you try to use hardware you are in two places;
either using something really old that might break and be irreplaceable and has speed/ram/editing frustrations, or use something current and realize that the hardware of today is very simplistic and tends to be made for hobbyists/live performers or has simple 'sample player' features at best.

I would prefer to be using a hardware box for all samples, and I don't mean 1 sound at a time being captured into the Daw, I mean the full ensemble multitimbrally playing from a hardware box, including the deep sound design I expect. Unless you get into big specific workstations like Kronos I don't think there is much any more.

I kind of wish that there was a dedicated hardware controller for one of the software sampler 'brains'. And no I don't mean Push2 for Ableton, which is gathering dust in my cupboard, I mean one specifically integrated with the sampler so that editing and controlling stuff is elegant with muscle memory. Think the front panel of the Akai S6000 as a USB connected controller, with its own sampler screen so you're not fiddling around hiding and reopening plugin windows on the Daw. This would at least get close to feeling like working with a hardware sampler again, instead of abominable sh*t like Kontakt.

I did once suggest on Gearslutz the idea of a hardware sampler that is like a halfway house, there is memory and DSP on the 'control surface' box, connected via USB3 to computer, so that sounds are loaded onto the hardware and have very low latency unlike the computer. You can edit on the device but a press of a button bounces any sample out through USB to your wave editor of choice on the computer for fine detailed editing. Similarly a simple piece of software could be used on the computer for mapping samples etc, communicated via USB. But the device itself capable of playing back loaded instruments, manipulating stuff like filters/pitch/pan/sample position etc with proper knobs, and if you were to use it live the sound is coming out of that box alone without the need for the 'offline' editor stuff on computer.

GAH !!! I had a push 2 as well, thinking I’d love it. WRONG! What an abysmal workflow... maybe it’s because I grew up on fruity loops , but I absolutely do not work by chaining a bunch of clips together, vertically. It makes no sense to me working like this, especially when you start to get into different resolution and clip lengths. I feel like Ableton push 2 is a half baked product, and I only got into a flow state with it twice, and I was on a bunch of adderall. Too Much work for too little payoff.

I have purchased something called falcon, which is a bit closer to what I am talking about, but it is really clunky interface wise, and also it is really difficult to audition sounds while working on them. Getting locked into the keyboard section and trying to trigger midi notes is enough to do my head in. It is also gathering dust for this reason.

I feel like the new music tools are seeking out at an alarmingly slow pace... with Behringer and everything it’s reminding me of what Hollywood is doing with all the remakes and stuff, without any funding going toward radical new ****... even if KUSO isn’t a perfect film at least it has more ideas than most other stuff these days... I wish lynch would put something new and good out.

Don’t even get me started on the modal samples lol,,, and game of thrones... well I don’t like fantasy let alone watch TV at all.

Maybe everything will get interesting someday
Old 3 weeks ago
  #24
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xled View Post
Let’s all bounce on our yogic flying mats and say some mantras about a new all-in-one sampling solution with granular capabilities haha.
I just use the Sampler in Bitwig... It has 3 modes, regular playback, granular and wavetable. It has voice stacking so I can make up to 5 unison voices and any parameter can be set independently for any of the 5 voices. The modulation is unlimited and it is MPE capable. I can add samples of any length, make complex multi-samples if I wish, saving and organizing presets is great and I have essentially unlimited sample storage.

I have the full power of the DAW to record anything, layers sounds, use any of my synths and FX. It's all so powerful and easy. And of course if Bitwig Sampler was somehow not doing it, I've got other options as well.

Someone would have to come with something really amazing to get me to buy it. Be great if that happened... but I find it so unlikely.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #25
Gear Nut
 

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Old 3 weeks ago
  #26
Gear Nut
 

I just want to add that the iPad Air 2 has the same amount of RAM as the MPC live (I looked this fact up and was stunned) , so I feel like it still could possibly get a lot of mileage because it doesn’t have to run like 4999 different processes at once, but seeing how the LFO is routed in the Mpcs and the new force does not give me much hope , and makes me feel like the programmers aren’t really looking to make things as clever and efficient as they possibly can. Maybe disk streaming will change all of that, but as it sits, we have some really perplexingly complicated ideas (again, 4 INSERT EFFECTS PER PAD?!) that seem to be executed in the least efficient way possible. Lol.

But yea, with clever programming you can get a lot of mileage, and I DO NOT like the argument that there will never be a hardware sampler as powerful as a computer because it’s not true and I assure you that one of these days something will come along and show us all why that is not true. The main reason for this is ARM processors, SSDs and the fact that you do not have to run a bloated OS, and that an elegant DEDICATED music OS would blow everything out of the water.

There will ABSOLUTELY be this paradigm shift sometime in the (I hope near) future.

Maybe the new ELK stuff will break this rule, or maybe it willl be the new standalone Ableton box that is in the works... but it will happen,
Old 3 weeks ago
  #27
Gear Nut
 

...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #28
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Praxisaxis's Avatar
 

If you wanna work with hardware, you can do worse than just having two or three devices fed into a mixer. They don't all have to do everything, and having the separate interfaces is useful for muscle memory.

I'm not a genius with samplers but tell me if I'm wrong:
MPC Live + mangler (octa or Digitakt etc) + one or two hardware granular/beat repeat units (KP3 is a simple example) to run the signal to, all going into a mixer. . . there is precious little you can't achieve with that setup that you can achieve in a DAW. And I reckon absolutely nothing you can't do, if while producing you're happy to do a few tricks in the DAW and feed out data to your hardware.

I wouldn't claim units like the MPC Live are perfect or that they can do everything, but honestly, I pretty much have no more excuse to not make some music as things stand currently
Old 3 weeks ago
  #29
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NEXUS-6's Avatar
 

MPC 4000 FOREVER.

Old 3 weeks ago
  #30
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