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Roland files trademarks for 303 and 808 designs in Germany Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 9th February 2019
  #121
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post
Numbers normally cannot be trademarked
Yes, people keep nitpicking at individual points like this, while missing the ACTUAL point. Everything originates with Roland - the name, the form factor, the colour scheme, the position of knobs and sliders, the font, the overall design aesthetic.
I'm not saying they can be liable for all of that, or even any of it. I just think it's reasonable for Roland to say - if you want to copy our synths and drum machines, at least pay for your own cosmetic design and think up your own name.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyToot View Post
Please tell me and others were this selfishness and entitlement lurks; I'm all ears.

So I point out that they Roland have a hissy fit and slap a copyright/ trademark on their colours in Germany all the whilst pump out visionary [scoff] mini versions (amazing minds at Roland) of their old kit which they don't make anymore, and all of a sudden, you've added 2 + 2 in your mind to equate 5 = name calling. Awesome work there.

I've no interest in a Roland clone of anything right now. I've not a horse in the race so to speak. I'm just commenting on this recent endeavour of Roland's which I personally think is not only childish, but quite pathetic. The only thing that would change my mind on Roland's silliness is if they reissued their old kit - not that i buy it - which would give them good reason for this recent copyright shenanigans.

.
You're throwing a hissy fit at a company for not making what you want despite the fact - They don't have to do anything. That's hugely entitled behaviour.

What about recent behaviour is "childish"? It doesn't stop clones and won't affect anyone making them. The only childish behaviour is your attitude and lack of knowledge about IP law.

Roland & Behringer went through similar years ago, this is not new from them. So its not "recent" at all. Please learn more before posting nonsense.


A lesson I learnt a long time ago was you can usually tell if you're dealing with a person with a personality disorder simply by how they react to being told "No". How look at the nonsense thrown at Roland for saying no to analogue reissues.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #123
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyToot View Post
So I point out that they Roland have a hissy fit and slap a copyright/ trademark on their colours in Germany all the whilst pump out visionary [scoff] mini versions (amazing minds at Roland) of their old kit which they don't make anymore
.
The person is who is having a 'hissy fit' is you.
Your comments are OTT. When people point out the new, original, innovative products Roland sell you don't want to know....just because it doesn't fit into your rant.
You can't get this hot and bothered about a gear manufacturer. Life goes on. There are more important things to get upset about other than a goddam 808 clone.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #124
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login's Avatar
Boutiques are collectible items, much in the Kawai category.

The TR8S is the actual Roland product for those who want the classic sounds with expanded functionality, it is cheaper than B's clones because you get far more stuff in a single machine, if you go with the clone you have less sounds and less functions.

And what is funny is that not even Roland themselves had to clone the look as close as B to sell their TR8S, they made a product which is nostalgic where it counts (sound) but modern where it needs to: faders, effects, samples, audio streaming via USB (even if only useful on some occasions), automation recording and even total session recalling which is a great feature for touring artists.

Same goes for System 8, which offers more than a mere clone.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #125
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 

Is this about sneakers or drum machines....?
Old 9th February 2019
  #126
most don't really care about the panel cosmetics, fonts or colours, only that it makes the sounds they want to hear. although for some the aesthetics are more important than the sounds! unless you have Chromesthesia.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #127
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genetic92's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Like the System 1M - dsp synthesis completely Eurorack compatible.
The System 8 synth engine
The TR8s
The Aira FX modules for Eurorack like Torcido and Bitrazer.
Most of the drum and percussion division is industry standard and leading the pack.
TD50, TD17, SPDSX, TM6 Pro etc.....

People just want to continue to repeat these myths, even when they are patently not true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Like the System 1M - dsp synthesis completely Eurorack compatible.
The System 8 synth engine
The TR8s
The Aira FX modules for Eurorack like Torcido and Bitrazer.
Most of the drum and percussion division is industry standard and leading the pack.
TD50, TD17, SPDSX, TM6 Pro etc.....

People just want to continue to repeat these myths, even when they are patently not true.
OK, so your list wasnt complete, but still consider this:

have a look at the product list from KORG today:

King Korg
Microkorg
Microkorg XL
Microkorg S
Prologue 8 voices
Prologue 16 voices
Minilogue
Monologue
Arp Odyssey FS
Arp Odyssey FSQ
Arp Odyssey
Arp Odyssey Module
Korg MS-20 Mini
Korg MS-20 FS Kit
Volca Keys
Volca Bass
Volca Beats
Volca Kick
Volca Modular
Monotron Duo
Monotron Delay
KAOSSILATOR Pro
KAOSSILATOR 2S
KAOSSILATOR 2

and then you have their software synthesizers etc.

Korg Gadget
Korg Collection
Korg Legacy Collection, Polysix, Wavestation, Mono/Poly
+their huge List of IOS and iPAD apps and Nintendo DS line.
---


The point is that Korg has adapted *MUCH* better in todays demand for electronic musicians compared to Roland. ROLAND is sleeping IMO.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #128
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cogsy's Avatar
 

All things being equal, I'd rather have the clones look like the thing they are cloning. I think the RD8/9 look sharp, with that classic 80's industrial vibe. I've never needed the 808 sound, but a 909 may be in my future at that price.

Are the clones in poor taste? Maybe. The Crave/Mother similarities are pretty close to my personal line. But Roland's gear is 30+ years old. They could flip the switch and make more, but they have chosen not to. < moderator message: discussing LEGAL issues on Gearslutz is not allowed. Thanks >I'm not on Roland's payroll so I don't feel the need to defend them.

Last edited by Reptil; 10th February 2019 at 05:32 PM.. Reason: -
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Old 9th February 2019
  #129
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soundebler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post
Numbers normally cannot be trademarked (which is why companies prefer fantasy names for they products as those can of course be trademarked), so there is no reason for Behringer to use a different name.
Porsche 901 Porsche 901 - Wikipedia
Old 9th February 2019
  #130
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daviddever's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cogsy View Post
They want to make lawsuits, Behringer wants to make instruments. I'm not on Roland's payroll so I don't feel the need to defend them.
Sorry, I LOLed at this twice. Trademark registration ≠ lawsuit, for one; the second should be obvious: Behringer sued Dave Smith Instruments, forum posters, and lost - CDM Create Digital Music.

A manufacturer with an iconic product, IMHO, should be able to defend their patents, trademarks and trade dress for products which they have developed, within the bounds of the law. This doesn't simply disappear because the masses feel that they've been slighted, having not been granted a recent reissue / cheaper reissue / faithful reissue, etc. by same.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #131
Quote:
Originally Posted by cogsy View Post
They want to make lawsuits, Behringer wants to make instruments. I'm not on Roland's payroll so I don't feel the need to defend them.
Roland are making a lot of instruments, just not the ones you personally want.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #132
Quote:
Originally Posted by genetic92 View Post
The point is that Korg has adapted *MUCH* better in todays demand for electronic musicians compared to Roland. ROLAND is sleeping IMO.
Where are the Korg v-drums? Does every band have a Korg sample pad onstage (no).
They are making stuff and it's selling well, just not 808's with the actual analogue circuitry a relative small number of people demand.
Old 9th February 2019
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Roland are making a lot of instruments, just not the ones you personally want.
Luckily Behringer comes to rescue.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #134
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login's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyToot View Post
Maybe I'm totally off the mark...

Itches beard:

I wonder if it's more a case where people are so pro Roland with respect to trademarks/ copyright that it's more to do with their own vested interests i.e they own Roland 909's etc and that this in some way scuppers Behringer and their clones so as not to devalue the hardware they own.

Hmm, one wonders.

.
From a moral stand I have nothing against B's clones, the law is clear they can copy the design.

From investment in vintage gear: I am not, I kind of despise vintage gear, I prefer modern offerings and "reinterpretations".

Now, where B lost my sympathy was suing GS users, that's was totally bully behavior.
Old 9th February 2019
  #135
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cogsy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Roland are making a lot of instruments, just not the ones you personally want.
This is true. Very very true


You seem adamant that “relatively few” people are going to want these. And yet a company with a lot more market research than you has sunk a bundle of money into mass producing them. I guess we’ll see. I wonder if the RD808 is going to become the electronic music equivalent of the acoustic guitar is everyone’s closet.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #136
Here for the gear
I back Roland on this. People claim they're not making instruments people want. There's the Boutique series on the cheap side. On the higher end is the TR-8S which is IMO in every way a better drum machine than the RD-808/RD-909 other than OMG ANALOG. Price-wise you get 808, 909, 707, and samples so you're still ahead when it's all said and done.

I wouldn't care if Behringer didn't 100% rip the look and name of the 808/909. Roland are still making machines with the 808/909 name and look so there's no case to claim abandoned IP.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calnyc View Post
On the higher end is the TR-8S which is IMO in every way a better drum machine than the RD-808/RD-909 other than OMG ANALOG. Price-wise you get 808, 909, 707, and samples so you're still ahead when it's all said and done.
It’s still a software emulation of the actual thing (not to mention it looks horrible compared to the classics). I want actual analog if I buy hardware.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #138
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomized View Post
It’s still a software emulation of the actual thing (not to mention it looks horrible compared to the classics). I want actual analog if I buy hardware.
That's identical in tone to the analog version to nearly everyone especially once processed, which every x0x box goes through on recordings and live. I use a mix of digital, analog, and sample-based percussion on my tracks and not once did anyone say, "that track was great except the drums sounded digital."

The TR-8 looked horrible but the TR-8S looks sleek and modern.
Old 9th February 2019
  #139
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tux99's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundebler View Post
Wikipedia is lacking a source for that claim so it could well be an urban legend, and in any case even if it was true Peugeots claim almost certainly wouldn't have held up in court.
There are many counter-examples, for example BMW 323 <> Mazda 323 is the first one that springs to my mind.
Old 9th February 2019
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calnyc View Post
That's identical in tone to the analog version to nearly everyone especially once processed, which every x0x box goes through on recordings and live. I use a mix of digital, analog, and sample-based percussion on my tracks and not once did anyone say, "that track was great except the drums sounded digital."
I already have a computer. If I’m buying software, I’ll rather just buy it for my computer rather than in a new box. And to my ears, the tone is not identical in software emulations and actual analog.

Quote:
The TR-8 looked horrible but the TR-8S looks sleek and modern.
I tried TR-8S at a store and while it is an improvement over the hideous TR-8, it still looks and feels like a toy compared to the stylish classics. RD-808 looks way better to me.
Old 9th February 2019
  #141
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomized View Post
I already have a computer. If I’m buying software, I’ll rather just buy it for my computer rather than in a new box. And to my ears, the tone is not identical in software emulations and actual analog.
In that case, I guess I'll sell my DX7, Digitone, Octatrack, Digitakt, and Plaits because I already have a computer.

To my ear, the TR-8S sounds more like a TR-808 than the Behringer.
Old 9th February 2019
  #142
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tux99's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by calnyc View Post
To my ear, the TR-8S sounds more like a TR-808 than the Behringer.
When did you last de-wax your ears?

3 posts, registered an hour ago purely for this thread, says it all really...
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Old 9th February 2019
  #143
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EvilDragon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by calnyc View Post
To my ear, the TR-8S sounds more like a TR-808 than the Behringer.
Thanks for a very good laugh!
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Old 9th February 2019
  #144
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by tux99 View Post
When did you last de-wax your ears?

3 posts, registered an hour ago purely for this thread, says it all really...
What does post history have to do with anything? I'm a long time lurker who decided to join this particular discussion because it interests me.

As someone who's been producing music for two decades and has owned tens of thousands of dollars of analog gear (vintage and otherwise) I like to think I know a thing or two about tone.

But if you want to subscribe to the long-standing canard that analog automatically sounds better than digital, go for it. The DrumBrute, Volca Drum, and Rythm Wolf have proven otherwise.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #145
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Which presumes (again) a large amount of people WANT faithful reproductions.
We don't know....yet. It's a loud and active lobby on Gearslutz, but that's like 50 customers maximum?
Roland are selling thousands of TR8 and TR8s.
In the late 90's I owned an Sci Pro One. It was a cheap 'vintage' mono synth that did it's job well. Nothing that special. I sold it a few years later to no great fanfare or scramble from multiple buyers.
From my perspective the Sci Pro One has remained one of the more affordable but great sounding mono synths. It has never been a cult synth.
How many people are lusting after an exact 1:1 Pro One from Behringer....compared to how many people who want an affordable mono synth that sounds good, has an interesting sequencer and a distinctive sound - that just happens to be a Pro One clone?
you're completely missing my point. i dont have the money for one, i wouldnt buy one, i dont want one. but there are plenty of people who will pay hand over fist for proper re-issues, and frankly I wish they would just so we could end these endless stupid debates.
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Old 9th February 2019
  #146
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goony's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by calnyc View Post
What does post history have to do with anything? I'm a long time lurker who decided to join this particular discussion because it interests me.
Long time lurker that only registered this month LMFAO
Old 9th February 2019
  #147
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MarkR's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
They've used the SAME colours though - and the same font, more or less the same layout, and incorporated the 808® aspect.
It's not just Behringer. It's been going on for years, and from a wide variety of gear makers.
It happened in sampling years ago, where the major drum sample purveyors stopped using the brands 808 and 909 specifically in their products.
They haven't used the exact same colours, they can't trademark fonts unless they were the designers, and the trademark doesn't include most of the layout.
Old 9th February 2019
  #148
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patrickdafunk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yes, people keep nitpicking at individual points like this, while missing the ACTUAL point. Everything originates with Roland - the name, the form factor, the colour scheme, the position of knobs and sliders, the font, the overall design aesthetic.
I'm not saying they can be liable for all of that, or even any of it. I just think it's reasonable for Roland to say - if you want to copy our synths and drum machines, at least pay for your own cosmetic design and think up your own name.
Ok. So I thought about it more, and I think I changed my opinion, also because of this discussion (especially @chrisso made really good points) .

I think Roland does have the right to protect their brand and identity. Even if they decide to do nothing with this design. This is something they did, what they are doing now is not relevant to this discussion. I think Behringer is in the wrong here. I don't think it's good work ethic to blatantly copy designs.

I think if they did something like an 'inspired by the 808' like they did with the Deepmind 12, it would be of better taste. I think you should respect history, and acknowledge the work that wen't into these designs.

So yes, I am with Roland on this one.

Last edited by patrickdafunk; 9th February 2019 at 10:59 PM..
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Old 9th February 2019
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Is a singular opinion and not reflected in sales.

With Behringer apparently doing what you want, I'm amazed people spend so much time cursing Roland for not doing it. They're doing something else. Why does it bother you that they've chosen a different path to your personal choice?
Nobody's cursing Roland for not doing it, they're cursing the prospect of Roland preventing Behringer from doing it.

...Why does it bother the Knights of the Roland Table (you know who you are) so much that Behringer has chosen to clone?
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Old 9th February 2019
  #150
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El-Burrito's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It should be about there sound and the feature set. It doesn't have to be called 808 and have the same colour scheme to make great music.
But, We the peoples want the same colour scheme. Looks matter for people in all products.

ESP makes Gibson ”clone” guitars. Gibson contacted all stores selling ESP guitars that they will sue if they keep selling ESP. Stores called the bluff and Gibson had to back off.

The thing is that ESP make better guitars than Gibson. Their Les Paul ”copies” cost thousands of dollars as new and are very wanted and respected. That pisses Gibson off. ESP could make their guitars look different and still make them sound great, but we, the peoples want them to look like classic guitars. It’s just how we are.

Avalon may sound better than BassBot mk1, but BassBot has better ’feeling’
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