The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
QY-70 and QY-100 with computer? Here goes nothing...
Old 16th December 2018
  #1
QY-70 and QY-100 with computer? Here goes nothing...

I remember formulating this thought in the early 2000's when i was relying on the Yamaha XG units alot. Now, 15 years later im revisiting that thought.

Wondering if anyone knows of a workflow to do the following:

1. compose on QY-70 or QY-100 (check, thats easy enough)
2. Export midi files to DAWS with some mapping of sounds and effects
3. With the ultimate goal of being able change voices and edit more liberally in a linear fashion.

I love the units but im feeling limited by the ability to edit linearly and / or to replace voices freely.

Thanks for any thoughts!

J
Old 16th December 2018
  #2
Lives for gear
 
enossified's Avatar
Are you planning on using the QY sounds or not?

Exporting MIDI files from Songs is only possible to a Smart Media card according to the QY100 manual. Patterns cannot be exported as MIDI files, period. Bulk dumps over MIDI only support the QY data format, not SMF.

Do you still have the manual? I looked this up in about 2 minutes online...I don't even own a QY100 (had a QY10 years ago).

Good luck.
Old 16th December 2018
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Interesting, I have a QY70 that I use from time to time. Iโ€™ve syncโ€™d it from pro tools for playback and use as a sound module but never tried playing midi into the computer from it.

Iโ€™ll try later to see if it outputs midi on playback. Should be able to output sequences in real time right?
Old 16th December 2018
  #4
Lives for gear
 

it is actually a recurrent question, and i can't
remember offhand what the workaround was.

on page 259
https://jp.yamaha.com/files/download...68/QY100E1.pdf

you have the various save/load file types.
a song is *.Q1P and that's basically a SMF, i think.
patterns are *.Q1P and that is a 'style' format.

you can do away with the card reader and use the QY Datafiler
software, there's a different version for each unit. forget what
you get when you do a transfer with them.

for 'styles', there are some style editors, i looked at them at long
time ago, and basically, a style is a file that contains midi files with
section headers to separate them. as there are various different
types of file, each with varying numbers of sections, you'll have to
investigate to see if either of these can do anything for you:

CASMEdit:
CasmEdit_eng
(think this one was the more promising looking one,
never got round to using it)

and there's CASMEditor by Jososoft
- who has a few MIDI programs (i think they are Java) :
YAMAHA Keyboard - CASM Editor

i thought about this, found it quite frustrating that you can't just
chuck midi files in there, or extract midi files from it. picking apart
a *.Q1P could be quite frustrating as well. why have a card slot
if you can just fill it with midi files and exchange with computer?

you could always 'play' the MIDI across and record it.

the other option seems to be the more friendly RM1X, which
appears to handle and produce SMF files. only just started
looking at it. seems much more geared toward passing files
back and forth with a computer.
Old 19th December 2018 | Show parent
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry123 View Post
Interesting, I have a QY70 that I use from time to time. Iโ€™ve syncโ€™d it from pro tools for playback and use as a sound module but never tried playing midi into the computer from it.

Iโ€™ll try later to see if it outputs midi on playback. Should be able to output sequences in real time right?
Yeah, I would love to know if that works. Im not totally set up yet on the DAWS side with my new computer. Was going to see if anyone had used the QY's in this way.

I can try with some trial software. I guess the question in part is how to handle midi mapping for patterns used in sequences. But yes, realtime recording seems promising.

Do you have QY vst's? Seems like it would be useful to start with a 1 to 1 mapping and then back out of the voices on the DAWS.

Thanks for your reply!
Old 19th December 2018
  #6
I also found this:
http://veg.by/en/projects/syxg50/

which is a vst originally was bundled with Yamaha Sequence Object Linking which I found here:

Yamaha SOL (Sequence Object Linking) 2 : Yamaha : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Its still downloadable though quite old. Have not yet been able to install them on a newer windows machine, and of course, would love to use my Mac instead!
Old 26th December 2018
  #7
Quick update:

Using the Old QY Data Filer i was able to convert QY Songs into SMF data, open the output .MIDI files into reaper and install the S-YXG50 VSTi in reaper.

Not sure if it matters, but by setting each midi channel to a track and assigning the VSTi to it, i got a playback on a windows machine that is pretty good / close to the original.

Im still experimenting with what the QY refers to as "backing" (patterns and chrd templates) to see how to get that to work. Likely that I'll have to expand backing (dump patterns and chord templates) onto tracks in order to get it to work. But seems very possible.

I did experiment with Yamaha's Sequence Object Link (installed it in Japanese) but have not been able to get the output to work. We'll see.

In any case, babysteps closer to this.
Old 27th December 2018
  #8
Lives for gear
 
01rsa's Avatar
There should be an option in your DAW to record the midi stream on input to separate midi tracks according to the midi channels of every midi informations incoming.
Just play what you've recorded on QY and record that way in your DAW (clock from DAW to midi in the QY.. or not).
I'm sure there's other ways with QY's but this works with the most humble Yamaha PSR being it has midi ports, including preset rhythm parts and ABC chord changes.
Old 27th December 2018 | Show parent
  #9
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by judemclane View Post
expand backing
after discussing QY700 with Hollowman9, i've concluded that
Expand Backing is a very good way to go with this. i've known
little QY's for 20+yrs, and i've never used them to their full
extent.

the Backing 'track' is a very good and productive and flexible way
to assemble patterns and have transpositions. very quick.

the Pattern tracks can either be assigned to MIDI Channels
1-8 or 9-16 - so when you 'Expand' (export to Song tracks)
-i'm assuming...?- the data will be copied over to corresponding
Song MIDI Channels - and, presumably, Tracks. i have to try this
to check.

Hollowman9 said that all chord transpositions and Play Effects
are 'rendered' when sent to the Song Mode.

And then you get a SMF to export, and i think its file extension is *.Q1S.
the extension for a Pattern is *.Q1P, but in that case, you have a
'Style' file, which is a concatenation of all the data from all the Sections
(Intro/MainA/MainB/ etc.) of the Pattern (called a Style) - and you can
only edit these files in a style editor, like CasmEdit (freeware), where
you see that it's basically a midi file, with headers inserted for each
section to identify them. (it seems like a bit of a headache to work
with, and the softwares for this are aimed at many more machines
than just the QY's - all the arranger keyboards, and styles with more
parts. interesting to look at though).

so basically, i think it is easiest to export into the Song mode, and
get a SMF file, yes.

i was interested in doing this in reverse order, making sequences on
a computer, quickly and precisely, and then loading them into the QY.

this could be more difficult with the Datafiler.
But i guess there is a workaround, if you stick all your patterns together
as a single midi file, then load as an SMF: you can then Get Phrase (or
is it Put Phrase ? ) and extract your patterns from Song Tracks
onto Pattern track - as 'Phrases': each Track in a pattern is a 'Phrase'.

It's confusing to think of 8 pattern channels, plus 16 song channels,
because there obviously aren't 24 midi channels. the Pattern, or
'backing' runs parallel to the Song, but shares the midi channels.

i originally conceived of the remaining Song Tracks as linear tracks
you'd use combined with looping, chained, Patterns. which never
seemed to make much sense or be a good design and the
way data is handled for save/load via Datafiler didn't make much
sense at all.

So ultimately, i think Expand Backing is the key to all of this, and
allows user to apply Volume curves, midi CC changes and so on
over longer linear tracks rather than repeated within loops, apply
edits and variations. seriously deep little machine
Old 27th December 2018 | Show parent
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by babylonpanic View Post

the Pattern tracks can either be assigned to MIDI Channels
1-8 or 9-16 - so when you 'Expand' (export to Song tracks)
-i'm assuming...?- the data will be copied over to corresponding
Song MIDI Channels - and, presumably, Tracks. i have to try this
to check.

Hollowman9 said that all chord transpositions and Play Effects
are 'rendered' when sent to the Song Mode.
Yes, this is working for me now. You do have the option to choose where to expand the backing parts (patterns, chord templates, tempo changes). Most logically im doing that to tracks 9-16 (since im more likely to use tracks 1-8 for other things). It's suprisingly logical therefore that style sections share voices within their tracks and that styles have only 8 tracks. In other words you can't go wrong with expand unless you've already recorded additional parts onto tracks 9-16, for example.

Anyway, in listening to an expanded version and a non-expanded version on the QY, i want to say there are slight differences. Some nearly imperceptible jumps when linear that i dont hear when looped from styles. But that's fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by babylonpanic View Post

So ultimately, i think Expand Backing is the key to all of this, and
allows user to apply Volume curves, midi CC changes and so on
over longer linear tracks rather than repeated within loops, apply
edits and variations. seriously deep little machine
I agree, seems simplest for either exporting through the data filer or playing/recording midi directly into a DAWS. That the changes implied in 'backing' get applied linearly, being the key.

Somebody did some serious thinking to design this little machine. Having worked on software projects, my mind immediately went to how much work went into thinking about this and designing it. I think it has some really powerful approaches that im not availed of in newer tech. But maybe that's just me and my limited exposure.

The preset patterns for example are a wealth of back-of-the-napkin ideas that when paired with chord templates and modified voices and so forth, are a nice little deconstructive / reconstructive way of making something.

I'll take a look at CasmEdit today, but i suspect you're right in regards to how you would construct a MIDI file to then load into the QY linearly and then extract to user patterns to make your styles.
Old 27th December 2018
  #11
I've given up on using DAWs for MIDI sequencing, I do it all on the QY100 (I think it has way better MIDI tools). I don't use the patterns myself though, so I'm not as familiar with how they work. I rarely use all 16 MIDI channels in a composition as it is. It's extremely easy to just play stuff in the way I hear it in my head, maybe do some quantization trickery (on an MPC thread there's a video of someone doing multiple quantize operations on a MV8080 to get the MPC "swing", that trick also works on the QY70/100 [and probably on other QYs]), it takes me an hour or so to get a track out of it. If I want a different sound other than what's available internally, I just wire it up via MIDI and control whatever with it.

Now that I think about it, IIRC I've read someplace in the past that the MIDI out can also output pattern data in real-time, and you can use the MIDI in to play in chords arranger-style, i.e. the QY can transpose pattern chord progressions using bass notes, thus it can "translate" for other devices and act as a nifty auto-arranger, but I haven't tested this myself yet.
Old 27th December 2018 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by poserp View Post
I've read someplace in the past that the MIDI out can also output pattern data in real-time, and you can use the MIDI in to play in chords arranger-style, i.e. the QY can transpose pattern chord progressions using bass notes, thus it can "translate" for other devices and act as a nifty auto-arranger, but I haven't tested this myself yet.
yeah.. of course it can that's what it's all about as far as
i'm concerned. good fun if you drive a bunch of analog synths with it.
QY controlling MS-10 via bassstation rack v/hz ..? was doing that a
couple of decades ago. (and in fact i wanted a QY much more as a
pattern sequencer than as a linear sequencer)

trouble is, there is no 'Local on/off' per track/channel, which is a
shame. so in the situation above, say you wanted to use the QY
drums, you would still hear the Voices playing on the parts for the
outboard - i s'pose you could just turn the mix volume down
on the parts/tracks you don't want to hear, as long as it isn't
sending a Volume midiCC #7 message to something that receives
it (not MS-10 obviously).

the only way to set Local off on a track is to insert a sysex message
in a Song, at the top of the relevant track. you can select this
sysex message in the Jobs, Insert Event.

another Yamaha sequencer i enjoyed from that period was the one
on the SY85 - all linear tracks, so you're always 'copying forwards'
and extending your track. and then you can back up the whole
thing to floppy. poserp, i think you'd really like the SY85. it isn't a
huge keyboard, and it's quite nice to sit and work at. which offsets
the size issue. and then you'd have.. 32 midi channels..
Old 27th December 2018 | Show parent
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by 01rsa View Post
There should be an option in your DAW to record the midi stream on input to separate midi tracks according to the midi channels of every midi informations incoming.
Just play what you've recorded on QY and record that way in your DAW (clock from DAW to midi in the QY.. or not).
I'm sure there's other ways with QY's but this works with the most humble Yamaha PSR being it has midi ports, including preset rhythm parts and ABC chord changes.
Out of curiosity what would you use to detect all midi tracks according to midi channels? Im looking into this on reaper at the moment. But perhaps cubase?
Old 27th December 2018 | Show parent
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by babylonpanic View Post
trouble is, there is no 'Local on/off' per track/channel, which is a
shame. so in the situation above, say you wanted to use the QY
drums, you would still hear the Voices playing on the parts for the
outboard - i s'pose you could just turn the mix volume down
on the parts/tracks you don't want to hear, as long as it isn't
sending a Volume midiCC #7 message to something that receives
it (not MS-10 obviously).
Oh, I've been doing this forever by just going to the "mixer" screen and turning down the volume fader on any track that I'm sequencing externally. It doesn't send the corresponding MIDI message when you do it, the track is "muted" on the QY, and everything works great. I've sequenced all sorts of things this way, and on the QY100 I use the instrument input to mix stuff back in so I don't have to carry a mixer.

I've been looking for a keyboard version to use at home with my "permanent" rig, I'll check out the SY85.

And, in case anyone hasn't read this: The Yamaha QY70 FAQ
Old 27th December 2018
  #15
Lives for gear
 

thinking about SY85, it could be that the SY77 has the same
sequencer - which would mean a more sophisticated sound palette
- ah but possibly much more expensive and sought after too.
i passed up a SY85 at a ludicrous sub-100eu price about a year
ago, for space reasons, and i sort of regret not going for it.
it's got that Yamaha environment feelgood vibe about it, all easy,
all catered for - the sound isn't that strong if you hope to
emulate analog, it can't do that, but it does some other interesting
stuff, and has the usual dual effects, and a couple of stereo outs
- which are configured in a weird way; you can get one dry pair,
and all the effects are sent to the other, i think.
but if you can get it cheap, it's a great 'toy', and not a bad keyboard
to have around.
Old 27th December 2018
  #16
Im assuming there is no resource for "expansion" sounds / patterns (either manufactured or open source) for the QY's?

In looking at the SY77 and SY85's, im intrigued by all of the expansion disks that seem to be floating out there.

Always thought that the QY would spawn community generated useful patterns given what Yamaha was able to build in and that there are 64 user pattern's available to be filled.

Thanks for both those references. Very intrigued to compare the synths.
Old 27th December 2018
  #17
Lives for gear
 

well.. you'd be talking about 'patterns'; the sounds can't be added to.

or, more precisely, 'styles'. and yeah, you probably can find 3rd party
styles that can be loaded. they should be *.Q1P files, and would
contain also the XG voice settings (i think? not sure about that bit).

and, alternatively, you could - arduously - adapt styles for other
arranger machines, using the CasmEdit freeware mentioned
before, - or the JoSosoft CASM program. (it seems CASM is the
acronym associated with arranger keyboard styles)

wherein: you select your chosen style format (eg: number of
sections), and paste in the midi data for each.

probably a total nightmare and inspiration killer

but if you join the QY70/100 yahoo group, i'm sure there are
a few specimen styles in the files section. not much though so
don't get your hopes up. a web search will probably yield more
results. (better/more fun to make your own though...)
Old 27th December 2018 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
01rsa's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by judemclane View Post
Out of curiosity what would you use to detect all midi tracks according to midi channels? Im looking into this on reaper at the moment. But perhaps cubase?
I don't know you have to search information on midi recording options.
It may as well be a little different than the way I described but same principle.
For example you could record the output stream from QY on a single midi track in reaper that accepts messages from any channel then have an option to separate that track in multiple channel specific tracks. A separate by channel function.
If you can arm more than one midi track for recording, a simple solution would be to create 16 midi tracks and each one respectively records channel 1, channel2...channel 16.
I can't see any reason it wouldn't work. Midi channel number is embeded in any midi message.
Old 27th December 2018
  #19
Lives for gear
 

the QYs are XG soundsets, which is 'extended general midi'.
general midi was grim, but meant you could play any midi file
with it. XG still plays back GM midi files, but you can edit the
sounds a bit, and 3 effects units are included. it's quite clever,
and you can do a lot with it.

the SY85 is 'AWM2', a 'sample and synthesis' (S+S, eg: 'rompler')
synth. not automatically GM compatible. doesn't matter, you just
make your presets, and songs, same as with any workstation.

SY77 came before it, but is the same sort of 'workstation' idea.
the synthesis method is a mix of FM and AWM2 samples. it seems
pretty interesting. i've never had one, but have some FM stuff.
FM has more 'body' to the sound, oomph, so could be interesting
layered and mixed with the sample material.

both can probably do sounds ranging from standard synthy stuff
to super schlocky unrealistic blends of waveforms through effects
Old 27th December 2018 | Show parent
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by babylonpanic View Post
but if you join the QY70/100 yahoo group, i'm sure there are a few specimen styles in the files section. not much though so
don't get your hopes up. a web search will probably yield more
results. (better/more fun to make your own though...)
Oh cool group. I've joined now. Thanks for pointing that out. I do like creating my own patterns. But I've found that listening to the canned patterns has basically elucidated the functionality. So more of learning tool.

That being said, the ultimate goal it to mostly make my own and then perhaps to control other sound sources from the qy.

Thanks!
Old 29th December 2018
  #21
Might be getting a little off the original topic and into broader QY stuff, but in the FAQ mentioned above, two things stand out:

1. the use of the peavey pc1600x:
- anyone tried it?

2. The groove templates:
- I do recall having those in the QY70 but i don't necessarily see them under the play FX in the QY100. Perhaps that was descoped for the 100. There are some Swing settings for tracks in song mode but i recall there being more on the qy70.

Anyway, just thought id add those to this conversation. Particularly interested in the Peavey usage.
Old 29th December 2018
  #22
Lives for gear
 
psionic11's Avatar
That Peavey MIDI mixer looks interesting, but I'm going to try first incorporating my arriving QY70 using my new SL Mk3. I'm hoping its faders can be put to good use for controlling volume levels of the various MIDI instruments hooked up to it, including the QY70's internal instruments and patterns. Perhaps with HUI mode I can even make a template for using the faders to control my XR18.

I can't seem to get into DAWs or even the sequencer on my Kronos, but all of a sudden the SL Mk3 has got me sequencing, after years of procrastinating in this area.

Funny how this thread came up right when my interest in the QY series jump-started. I've got a QY70 arriving mid-Jan from Japan. I want hardware linear recording most of all, and the portability and soundsets of the QY70 sound like a good fit for getting into that instantly accessible creative flow. Almost got an Electribe Sampler 2, but cancelled the order a few hours later after reading about the QY.

I've got an unused MPC1000 here, and have been researching modern sequencers like the Digitakt, Pyramid, MPC Live, etc. Also dabbled with Genome. But my main approach is old-school linear, music theory type stuff, not step sequencing.

I hope the Yamaha boosts me into new composing territory like the SL Mk3 is doing. Together I think they will get me to that creative flow. Thanks for the thread all, definitely keeping an eye on these tips.
Old 29th December 2018 | Show parent
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by judemclane View Post
1. the use of the peavey pc1600x:
- anyone tried it?

2. The groove templates:
- I do recall having those in the QY70 but i don't necessarily see them under the play FX in the QY100. Perhaps that was descoped for the 100. There are some Swing settings for tracks in song mode but i recall there being more on the qy70.
there's a set of templates for the Novation RemoteSL mk1+2.
you'll have to ask on the Yahoo group because i think they've gone from
the files section.

you've got 2 modes for remote editing of the QY70/100:
one is with MIDI CC
the other is with sysex

it depends what parameters. and i think the CCs reset when a Song is
reloaded, whereas the sysex actually 'sets' the Song parameters.

you can change Sections by remote, and if i recall, do mute/solo, but
you can't call Pattern changes.

mix, pan, fx sends and stuff can all be remoted. the NovationSL is good
because you can have linked pages and a display. did however end up
thinking a software solution would be easier. so there's XGEdit that
should work, have not tested it. not a fantastic UI but it's Yamaha and
ready-made.
Old 29th December 2018
  #24
Lives for gear
 

interesting.

https://jp.yamaha.com/files/download...68/QY100E1.pdf

http://www.deepsonic.ch/deep/docs_ma...y70_manual.pdf

you're right there - did not know this: the QY100 has Swing, and the
QY70 has 'Groove Quantization'. it isn't very clear from the manual if
you can save multiple templates or if it's just one per pattern or per song
- can be applied in both modes.

so the Groove can be shifting certain notes, or affecting their velocity,
as opposed to plain ole' Swing, and both are enabled per Track.
Old 29th December 2018
  #25
Lives for gear
 

think you should check out these patterns i found on the RM1X i got
recently - all done with XG soundset, just playing through a bit here.
i'm trying to identify what these remind me of.

hope the attachments work, think i've figured it out...
Attached Files
Old 29th December 2018 | Show parent
  #26
Quote:
Originally Posted by babylonpanic View Post

it depends what parameters. and i think the CCs reset when a Song is
reloaded, whereas the sysex actually 'sets' the Song parameters.
I believe you can overdub record and actually capture these CC changes.
Old 29th December 2018
  #27
Lives for gear
 

yes, of course.

Traylornik at the usergroup did this set of templates for novation
that i mentioned, and it meant looking into the sysex pages and
midi implementation closely, as well as a really complex navigating
structure to translate all the available controls onto the 'pages'
of controls on the novation.

in doing so, it meant having some controls as 'performance' control,
and the others were for setting parameters as initial values in a
pattern or song.

you're fine recording loads of MIDI CC, even in a looping pattern,
but if you try to do that with sysex, the timing gets messed up
quite quickly. - you won't have to deal with that unless you're
editing it via remote but it's worth knowing what type of data
you're chucking into the sequencer if you're using an external
editor.
Old 29th December 2018 | Show parent
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by babylonpanic View Post
interesting.

https://jp.yamaha.com/files/download...68/QY100E1.pdf

http://www.deepsonic.ch/deep/docs_ma...y70_manual.pdf

you're right there - did not know this: the QY100 has Swing, and the
QY70 has 'Groove Quantization'. it isn't very clear from the manual if
you can save multiple templates or if it's just one per pattern or per song
- can be applied in both modes.

so the Groove can be shifting certain notes, or affecting their velocity,
as opposed to plain ole' Swing, and both are enabled per Track.
I picked up one of each 70/100. So will be comparing this today. Hoping that my 100 dumps can be loaded on the 70 for a 1:1 comparison of the groove features. I remember being suprised at how interesting these were back in the day.
Old 29th December 2018 | Show parent
  #29
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by judemclane View Post
I picked up one of each 70/100. So will be comparing this today. Hoping that my 100 dumps can be loaded on the 70 for a 1:1 comparison of the groove features. I remember being suprised at how interesting these were back in the day.
the MIDI resolution - ppqn - will be fine to transfer stuff either way.
i think it's ? 480 ppqn/pulses per quarter note.

i remember being more impressed with the sound of the QY70 when
i first had one - mind you, i had had a QY20 before, and the sounds
on that are pretty grim: no XG editing or effects. but it's still an
amazing little box.

oh, when my speaker dived off the shelf, straight into the
screen of the QY20, and i took it to the Synth Service Centre...
*THEY LAUGHED*
Old 29th December 2018 | Show parent
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by babylonpanic View Post
oh, when my speaker dived off the shelf, straight into the
screen of the QY20, and i took it to the Synth Service Centre...
*THEY LAUGHED*
Wow, precision dive. That's about a 2" x 2" target.
๐Ÿ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 29 views: 11714
Avatar for slaughtrhaus
slaughtrhaus 4th October 2013
replies: 9 views: 6118
Avatar for Tunnan
Tunnan 1st August 2013
replies: 272 views: 12905
Avatar for Risc_Terilia
Risc_Terilia 30th December 2013
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
๐Ÿ–จ๏ธ Show Printable Version
โœ‰๏ธ Email this Page
๐Ÿ” Search thread
๐ŸŽ™๏ธ View mentioned gear
Forum Jump
Forum Jump