The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Synths for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Why isn't there an EMS VCS3 or EMS Synthi AKS reissue/clone?
Old 23rd November 2018
  #61
Gear Maniac
 
Bubbleraptor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mctoad View Post
Thank you!

So this leads me into more questions.
I thought the Putney doesn't have a sequencer right?
And is the Putney valued higher?
I'm sure this is a dumb question but is there a version that sounds better or is valued higher?
Thanks again
No, the Putney (VCS3) didn't have a sequencer, but once the Synth AKS came along they produced a version that you could hook up to the KS sequencer, as it is powered via the connecting cable and the PSU needed upgrading to supply the extra voltage. The matrix on the Mk2's was also changed to allow the sequencer functions to appear there. I think the Putney's can be more expensive because of the wooden case and late 60's look. I always preferred the aesthetic of the Synthi - it looked (and still looks) more futuristic (in a 70's way).
Generally, the earlier versions are more valuable as the sound is considered 'bigger' (but this has more to do with the way that the circuits can saturate when you push levels up). Also, as I said above, the early models have each of the VCO's waveforms appear on the matrix, so you can route them to separate destinations as well as control their levels. Of course there are modifications that people have done - most are 'legacy' ones which EMS could do for customers back in the day, so they are tried and tested. Whether these mods affect the price is difficult to say. I'll also add that it's very easy to put an EMS under MIDI control via a standard MIDI to CV interface. I use a Kenton, but an Arturia Keystep worked fine too.
Old 23rd November 2018
  #62
Lives for gear
 
midmost's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pppch View Post
the price is a joke...
aww man.. comments like this really grind my gears. The matrix alone are 256 solder points + all the potis and jacks. And then we still haven't populated the PCBs.. go and use your Microbrute **** really !


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbleraptor View Post
.. quite a lot of people who have a problem with the ethics of PIN selling a clone while EMS are still in operation.
I definitely see your point here BUT if Robin Wood needs 6 months to reply to e-mails (at least he did with me) and another 12 years to deliver, it doesn't really surprise me if someone else takes the chance to deliver!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbleraptor View Post
If I was in the market for a matrix patching synth I'd probably get an Arturia MatrixBrute. I saw a real one for the 1st time last week and it's much more elegant looking than in videos. 21st Century Synthi? Almost.
Never really understood this MatrixBrute argument.. other than having a matrix those two synths have absolutely nothing in common.
Old 23rd November 2018
  #63
Lives for gear
 
pppch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by midmost View Post
aww man.. comments like this really grind my gears. The matrix alone are 256 solder points + all the potis and jacks. And then we still haven't populated the PCBs.. go and use your Microbrute **** really !
.
why so friendly ... i just have a minibrute se .. sry ..fits nicely in between the two jupiter
In general, what do you have against arturia, finest Chinese production
and soldering points badly bad an impossible task, you need a soldering iron?
Old 23rd November 2018
  #64
Gear Maniac
 
Bubbleraptor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by midmost View Post
!

Never really understood this MatrixBrute argument.. other than having a matrix those two synths have absolutely nothing in common.
Really? I see two analogue mono synths with a similar approach to a workflow that doesn't use patch cables or sub-menus with modulation slots. That's a pretty big similarity for instruments that use subtractive synthesis to create sound.
Interface is what dictates approach, in my experience.
Old 24th November 2018
  #65
Lives for gear
 
pppch's Avatar
 

matrixbrute is really similar but still has additional amount. matrix is storable ..
Old 24th November 2018
  #66
Lives for gear
 
midmost's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pppch View Post
matrixbrute is really similar but still has additional amount. matrix is storable ..
dude, you obviously never had an genuine EMS under your fingers.. what are you doing in this thread?
Old 24th November 2018
  #67
Lives for gear
 
pppch's Avatar
 

Are you fortune-teller..here do you know nothing can I offer you white russian ..
stay with the topic .. why there are no affordable vcs3 ..
it is compared to the matrix .. and yes that is very similar .. has not much to do with the rest around ... there is also something storable in eurorack area ..
in the leak at that time was a vcs3 listed .. and if he really comes .. cool .. I take 3 ... really evil
Otherwise, I recommend the m1 thread .. may fit better ..vcs3 is actually not as fanatical as certain other products, rather chilling
Old 24th November 2018
  #68
Old 24th November 2018
  #69
Lives for gear
 
pppch's Avatar
 

looks still interesting, could be solderless ..


Old 24th November 2018
  #70
Lives for gear
 

Because most people don't care about it.
Old 25th November 2018
  #71
Gear Maniac
 
Bubbleraptor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treebase DMX View Post
Because most people don't care about it.
True - most people don't give a sh*t about synths at all. If you mean people that are into synthesisers then you're obviously wrong, otherwise there would be no EMS, no PIN clones, no licensed circuit designs, no software versions, no discussions and just no....
Old 25th November 2018
  #72
Lives for gear
 

Well I answered the question. It's simply a case of a low demand in that price bracket. And.. I'm never wrong! [ please go ahead and take that literally]
Old 25th November 2018
  #73
Gear Maniac
 
Bubbleraptor's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treebase DMX View Post
Well I answered the question. It's simply a case of a low demand in that price bracket. And.. I'm never wrong! [ please go ahead and take that literally]
Right, mate, right......so......actually, what you meant to answer was "because the manufacture of a VCS3 is so labour intensive that the cost to most customers would be prohibitively expensive and therefore few companies are interested in the challenges of mass production".
There, I fixed it for ya. No need to thank me.
Old 25th November 2018
  #74
Lives for gear
 

Pretty much yeah, there are not that many people who use synths that are willing to pay thousands for a monosynth that doesn't even have MIDI or eurorack connectivity.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #75
Ksp
Lives for gear
 
Ksp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pppch View Post
matrixbrute is really similar but still has additional amount. matrix is storable ..
Only difference aside from the fact they have totally different sounding Oscillators and filter and sound totally different is the Arturia Matrixbrute synth cannot do audio feedback multiple times into multiple gain stages , which is where the Ems synthi is totally unique and crazy as all the stages and elements of the synthi modules respond and interact to each other in very odd unpredictable ways .The audio feedback in the ems is where its special and how you can send that back again and again into other circuits and find these totally Mental sounds that can sit on the edge of control and chaos .

I wish the Matrixbrute had this aspect but the digital control and matrix i think stops it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #76
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksp View Post
The audio feedback in the ems is where its special and how you can send that back again and again into other circuits and find these totally Mental sounds that can sit on the edge of control and chaos.
Special, but not unique (modulars).

To answer the OPs question:
Only very very very few people like "these totally Mental sounds that can sit on the edge of control and chaos" that the VCS can do, therefore it is not a good idea commercially.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #77
Gear Head
 
Modular_8's Avatar
 

they're still being built. i know someone who recently (last year) got a new Synthi after being on the waiting list for quite a long time. he even got all the mods he wanted. i heard it last weekend and it's spectacular. it's probably not the right instrument for everyone but certainly is a good fit for some people.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #78
Ksp
Lives for gear
 
Ksp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
Special, but not unique (modulars).
To answer the OPs question:
Only very very very few people like "these totally Mental sounds that can sit on the edge of control and chaos" that the VCS can do, therefore it is not a good idea commercially.
small market for experimental sounds ? i guess thats why Pin has a waiting waiting list for its synthi style machine and people are still cueing up for a new synthi and companies like Soma labs are struggling to sell anything now and euro market is such a small market and struggling to sell as only Bagpipe romplers are commercial
Old 4 weeks ago
  #79
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksp View Post
small market for experimental sounds ?
I don't think there can be any >>new<< experimental sounds from this machine so many decades after its introduction (i am using an improved virtual recreation of it so i know 1 or 2 things about its capabilities).
But yes - Compare it to the market for non-experimental sounds and you will have to agree it is tiny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksp View Post
i guess thats why Pin has a waiting waiting list
How many units per month does he/she/they manufacture ?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #80
Lives for gear
 

The vcs3 was prob the best sounding synth I've ever had other than the fenix 2. Would love to get one in some form again, but not for what they cost. The problem with the pin portabella is again it's extremely high price...defeats the purpose of a clone
Old 4 weeks ago
  #81
Lives for gear
 
the donal's Avatar
Here's a thought. Could a pin matrix be built in a way that it could be easier to install- for example if it had pin connectors that slid into sockets onto the edge of the connecting circuitboard ( in the same way some computer components are fitted together). This might take away from some of the complexity of the build if the a degree of pcb was installed to carry the signal to and from different parts of the synth and might have only a minimal affect on the sound if the components and designs for the rest of the circuit board are retained...

This would still be quite an investment in a pinboard that would have a potentially limited application (and keep costs high), but it would facilitate more efficient production...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #82
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by the donal View Post
pin matrix
I would prefer to work with pots than with pins.
Just checked bulk prices.
The price seems to be about 20 cents a piece.
So 256*0.20=51.2$ for the pots.
Of course the matrix would have to be much bigger than on the original.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #83
Lives for gear
 
the donal's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
I would prefer to work with pots than with pins.
Just checked bulk prices.
The price seems to be about 20 cents a piece.
So 256*0.20=51.2$ for the pots.
Of course the matrix would have to be much bigger than on the original.
Fair enough. I was just thinking of keeping with the original design..
Old 4 weeks ago
  #84
Lives for gear
 

As someone up-thread said, it's the unique ability to overload connections with multiple sources without breaking down, either electronically or sonically, that is truly unique to the Synthi/VCS3.

Modeling is not quite up to that. You can get the kind of circular routings you can do on these instruments elsewhere now, and for less, but they don't precisely model the resulting distortion (in all its horror, some might say) you get here.

That's still a bridge not crossed by anything else. Our engineering knowledge is too good to recreate it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #85
Lives for gear
 

My stepfather had 2 synthis. And the two were sounding rather different. He lended one of them to me for a couple of years, and tbh though I explored a lot at that time, I would master it a lot more accurately nowadays. Strange, mysterious and quite unpredictable machines. A dark beauty. I've played several different minimoogs and, whatever people say on the differences between two units, all sounded rather 'similar' to me, same for Sh-101 etc. But the synthi hmmm, it's a different story.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #86
Lives for gear
 
Moonwhistle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
Special, but not unique (modulars).

To answer the OPs question:
Only very very very few people like "these totally Mental sounds that can sit on the edge of control and chaos" that the VCS can do, therefore it is not a good idea commercially.
What do you think of Discreet Music?

It's all Synthi & the opposite of mental sounds. You could do it with any synth but I don't think it would be so pretty and alive sounding.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #87
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonwhistle View Post
What do you think of Discreet Music?
I would have to youtube that name.
But one of my favorite artists uses it for blips and blops on many songs and it sounds good.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #88
Here for the gear
 

I know there have been rumors of B cloning these... I think this would be one of the most difficult copies to pull off, even though it's only a mono.

A Synthi clone from a big manufacturer might look similar, but I think creating an SMD, mass produced version would greatly affect the unpredictable and surprising nature of a Synthi. The construction and character are very much intertwined.

Cloning the big polys comes down to replicating the voice architecture and then modernizing the cpu/control circuits. Modern SMD manufacturing should do a decent job of pulling it off at a greatly reduced cost.

But who knows? Maybe I'm missing something.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #89
Lives for gear
 
Moonwhistle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
I would have to youtube that name.
But one of my favorite artists uses it for blips and blops on many songs and it sounds good.


Old 4 weeks ago
  #90
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkinsnikwah View Post
I know there have been rumors of B cloning these... I think this would be one of the most difficult copies to pull off, even though it's only a mono.

A Synthi clone from a big manufacturer might look similar, but I think creating an SMD, mass produced version would greatly affect the unpredictable and surprising nature of a Synthi. The construction and character are very much intertwined.

Cloning the big polys comes down to replicating the voice architecture and then modernizing the cpu/control circuits. Modern SMD manufacturing should do a decent job of pulling it off at a greatly reduced cost.

But who knows? Maybe I'm missing something.
Why though.. people said the same thing about the Minimoog. That it had some inherent magic in the circuit, the thickness of the traces, the way the specific components would interact with each other that would be impossible to replicate with modern components.

Surely the unpredictable nature in the Synthi is more on how its circuit is designed? And variation between units is more component tolerances/aging/maybe EMS just grabbed "near enough" bits when they'd run out of the one they normally use etc..

It's a rumour because Behringer put a Synthi "VCX3" on their website by mistake at the end of 2017.. so even if it's just a wishlist item they were toying with.. we know for sure it's at some point in their pipeline of consideration. I'd be amazed if they don't go through with it, really
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump