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Moog One Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8041
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by unfiltered420 View Post
Nah, it's more about the definition between a computer and a musical instrument. Even an analog modular synth to me is more like a computer than a musical instrument, even if both can contain musical instruments within them. This has nothing to do with technology, other than the fact that it has made computers and made them ubiquitous.

The One as so many modern synths are, both analog and digital, so vast that there is nothing really to pin them down as a musical instrument with a sound of their own. And to me, I can't connect with something like that in the same way Willie nelson connects with trigger or yo yo ma connect with his cello, or edgar meyer with his bass. Or me with my minimoog or my hofner beatle bass.
Fair enough. And I don't doubt that that's the case for you. But if you think of the generation that's coming up, the ones that are maybe just beginning to learn to play the piano, or guitar, or MPC or whatever, instruments with "computers" in them will be second nature. And the idea of something not qualifying as an instrument because it has a computer component to it will be to them (or even to me) as foreign as it is to us that an electric guitar doesn't count as a real instrument because it's electrified and uses magnets.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8042
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by unfiltered420 View Post
Nah, it's more about the definition between a computer and a musical instrument. Even an analog modular synth to me is more like a computer than a musical instrument, even if both can contain musical instruments within them. This has nothing to do with technology, other than the fact that it has made computers and made them ubiquitous.

The One as so many modern synths are, both analog and digital, so vast that there is nothing really to pin them down as a musical instrument with a sound of their own. And to me, I can't connect with something like that in the same way Willie nelson connects with trigger or yo yo ma connect with his cello, or edgar meyer with his bass. Or me with my minimoog or my hofner beatle bass.
Well I suppose computer would not be my first choice of word to describe what you mean because that probably comes with a few unintended connotations. And I wouldnt say that there is nothing at all that pins them down as a musical instrument, especially because of factors such as the character of the oscillators and the filters, and often the envelopes and some performance aspects as well. But I do still know what you mean, and its a big part of the reason why I got a Deckards Dream recently, I wanted something that felt more like a simpler cohesive instrument with more limitations on a bunch of fronts, and one that I could play expressively with MPE controllers right now. I'm still interested in broader beasts like the Moog One though, just for a slightly different but still partially overlapping purpose in my setup.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8043
Lives for gear
 
Phil Aiken's Avatar
 

Horses for courses, as they say.
I am a piano player first and foremost, plus Hammond/Rhodes/Wurly. The Mini and other mono synths are just a different means of expression, and more complicated synths like the One are another. I'd give up every synth tomorrow over giving up piano/organ, but fortunately I don't have to. I can have my "Trigger", and still do other things.
I also both read books and watch movies, like Blondes and Brunettes, dumb comedies and great films, jazz and rock and roll. Life's rich pageant.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8044
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Aiken View Post
I also both read books and watch movies, like Blondes and Brunettes, dumb comedies and great films, jazz and rock and roll. Life's rich pageant.
My only problem with variety is that it encourages me to spend too much money :D But yes, despite being happy to nit-pick and fret over specific technical matters and potential design flaws, I do tend to write off a fair amount of online criticism of synths etc with thoughts of 'what have you got against variety, why should every synth have to meet your particular needs, especially if those needs are narrow/very specific?'
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8045
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveElbows View Post
I wanted something that felt more like a simpler cohesive instrument with more limitations
That's the key to what i am saying, limitations, as all musical instruments have. I absolutely love arbitrary limitations, not just on instruments, but in music, and life. Life is so obscenely complex, so many things to think about, it's endless. I have to play 4 instruments (more if you count different keyboards and percussion), plus am always learning south indian carnatic rhythm in addition to playing tabla, plus engineering, producing, etc etc.

I used to have a large keyboard setup, but pared it down to just minimoog and clavinet, but even those two are crazy complex with the semi modular effects setup. And i have to tune them, along with my piano harp reverb, and drum kit. When i see these guys with 20 synths along with their full modular and softsynths, etc. I am like, have these guys figured out the 100 hour day? How in the hell are they managing all that? My neighbor bought a OB whatever it is, the new oberheim, and I sat with it for an hour and was totally overwhelmed by the depth of it's features and never really found anything i could work with.

Contrast that to when I first got my minimoog, and i literally sat with it for 20 hours straight, no food, maybe some water (and definitely weed) and bathroom breaks, not even tweaking it really, just playing it. That was the longest space out I have ever had. And that in 20 hours I probably developed a huge amount of my keyboard chops. That's what i have found about practicing music, if you practice 5 hours in a row, it will get you so much further than 1 hour for 5 days. When learning tabla, they have something called a "chilla" in which you spend 40 days straight practicing all day, and it's like many years of normal practice. That's why you have guys who seem like they have been playing 1000 years.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8046
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveElbows View Post
Well I suppose computer would not be my first choice of word to describe what you mean because that probably comes with a few unintended connotations. And I wouldnt say that there is nothing at all that pins them down as a musical instrument, especially because of factors such as the character of the oscillators and the filters, and often the envelopes and some performance aspects as well. But I do still know what you mean, and its a big part of the reason why I got a Deckards Dream recently, I wanted something that felt more like a simpler cohesive instrument with more limitations on a bunch of fronts, and one that I could play expressively with MPE controllers right now. I'm still interested in broader beasts like the Moog One though, just for a slightly different but still partially overlapping purpose in my setup.
Well given the M1 firmware's infancy it's got all the limitations one could ask for in an 8k synth. In fact the Deckard Dream is far LESS limited IMO, and esp with the mpe support, thats why I bought 2, will def keep me satisfied while moog voyages towards the goal line. The moog hasn't gotten much love since the waldorf, and black corp synth's landed, that will prob change big time in the future though, so not stressing too much. grateful I have other gear to keep me more than occupied. Sure I prob should of waited to get the m1 but as a huge voyager fan I couldn't resist. my bad
Attached Thumbnails
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Old 4 weeks ago
  #8047
Lives for gear
 
maisonvague's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by unfiltered420 View Post
I disagree, and I highly dislike the piano, except the type I have, which has no keyboard.
Interesting. Off the top of my head, I can't really think of any instrument that I "dislike".

As for the piano, I started playing at age four, going on to graduate from a music conservatory with a piano performance degree.

I earn a living as a pianist.

It's my absolute dearest, most favorite instrument in the world.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8048
Lives for gear
 
maisonvague's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by unfiltered420 View Post
That's what i have found about practicing music, if you practice 5 hours in a row, it will get you so much further than 1 hour for 5 days.
As a piano teacher I would argue the exact opposite. Shorter practice times done consistently yield much better results than five hour "binges".

Of course, regular five hour practice sessions are another matter. At the conservatory I would sometimes practice seven hours a day. But even that is too much. Three to four hours a day of consistent practice is more than enough for a concert pianist.

For the average piano student, however, one hour a day is sufficient, so long as it's quality practice. Quality over quantity.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8049
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
As a piano teacher I would argue the exact opposite. Shorter practice times done consistently yield much better results than five hour "binges".

Of course, regular five hour practice sessions are another matter. At the conservatory I would sometimes practice seven hours a day. But even that is too much. Three to four hours a day of consistent practice is more than enough for a concert pianist.

For the average piano student, however, one hour a day is sufficient, so long as it's quality practice. Quality over quantity.
Well I got a substantial amount of my keyboard chops playing for 20 hours straight. I am sure it was partly because of the initial boost, as I basically started playing keyboards on it. And I wasn't practicing arpeggios or rotation or anything, i was just playing, feeling the keyboard out and seeing what are the most comfortable key(s)/positions. And I settled in that time that my keys that are still c# f# and g#. Probably from years of playing a c# tabla.

But I know from practicing hours of tabla a day, it takes a long time to get warmed up, then you keep going deeper and deeper the longer you go, way deeper than when i would only practice an hour a day. You have to kind of start over each time. It's a very meditative experience, and meditation is the same way. I guess that deeply influenced me in playing other instruments, and it's how I feel now on keys, drums, and bass. After a long session of practicing/playing the bass, I am playing stuff I would never play otherwise.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8050
Gear Nut
 

Hi synthslutz !

I pre-ordered a Moog One before ...
but I've rarely doubted so much in advance of a synth as it does here.

Unfortunately, most YouTube videos of the One turn out to Sound sadly bad to mediocre (as it bests)

Here's one example with "great latest Presets":



View: YouTube


It all sounds so boring and unexpectedly thin ... I am directly shocked.
Even the layer-sound of three synth-engines "Metropolitan" (6:18) sounds pitifully thin ...

Honestly, my quantum sounds fatter than this with just one Oscillator.

These are new presets made by Moog ?


Do not understand me wrong ..I do not want to bash the One !
I just need a justification for myself to buy this Synth.
8700 Euros are no chicken-feed.

Unfortunately, in my place there is nowhere to test a Moog One and check
it by myself.

Therefore my request to the (hopefully) happy owners:

Could you please tell me that the one can sound better than this!

It would be nice to have some positive (sound) examples
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8051
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep6 View Post
Hi synthslutz !

I pre-ordered a Moog One before ...
but I've rarely doubted so much in advance of a synth as it does here.

Unfortunately, most YouTube videos of the One turn out to Sound sadly bad to mediocre (as it bests)

Here's one example with "great latest Presets":



View: YouTube


It all sounds so boring and unexpectedly thin ... I am directly shocked.
Even the layer-sound of three synth-engines "Metropolitan" (6:18) sounds pitifully thin ...

Honestly, my quantum sounds fatter than this with just one Oscillator.

These are new presets made by Moog ?


Do not understand me wrong ..I do not want to bash the One !
I just need a justification for myself to buy this Synth.
8700 Euros are no chicken-feed.

Unfortunately, in my place there is nowhere to test a Moog One and check
it by myself.

Therefore my request to the (hopefully) happy owners:

Could you please tell me that the one can sound better than this!

It would be nice to have some positive (sound) examples
any chance to get your hands on one before you make a decission like that?
I too was concerned , mainly because of fan noise issues that were broadly discussed here in this forum.
Mine emits no disturbing fan noise, and had not a single shot down / reboot.

Sound. Well as I said before: go and grab the knobs and find out for yourself. I would not use it for bass, but for everything else with delight.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8052
Lives for gear
 
Moonwhistle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep6 View Post
Hi synthslutz !

I pre-ordered a Moog One before ...
but I've rarely doubted so much in advance of a synth as it does here.

Unfortunately, most YouTube videos of the One turn out to Sound sadly bad to mediocre (as it bests)

Here's one example with "great latest Presets":



View: YouTube


It all sounds so boring and unexpectedly thin ... I am directly shocked.
Even the layer-sound of three synth-engines "Metropolitan" (6:18) sounds pitifully thin ...

Honestly, my quantum sounds fatter than this with just one Oscillator.

These are new presets made by Moog ?


Do not understand me wrong ..I do not want to bash the One !
I just need a justification for myself to buy this Synth.
8700 Euros are no chicken-feed.

Unfortunately, in my place there is nowhere to test a Moog One and check
it by myself.

Therefore my request to the (hopefully) happy owners:

Could you please tell me that the one can sound better than this!

It would be nice to have some positive (sound) examples
Yikes, that video.

There are some very good sounding clips, they just don't make it to the front page of search results on youtube. I posted a few of them here.



I think that's one of the best.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8053
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep6 View Post
Unfortunately, most YouTube videos of the One turn out to Sound sadly bad to mediocre (as it bests)

Here's one example with "great latest Presets":



View: YouTube


It all sounds so boring and unexpectedly thin ... I am directly shocked.
Even the layer-sound of three synth-engines "Metropolitan" (6:18) sounds pitifully thin ...

Honestly, my quantum sounds fatter than this with just one Oscillator.
Watch out !
Some time ago i almost got crucified when i said that i heard better sounds from a digital synth... Was Zebra 2 HZ in my case though, not Quantum.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8054
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
As a piano teacher I would argue the exact opposite. Shorter practice times done consistently yield much better results than five hour "binges".
I think you’re both right, as I don’t think he was talking about a binge that is then followed by inactivity, but rather the value of really intensive practice periods of days, weeks, or months — hence the 40 day tabla “retreat.”

The equivalent for your piano students would be closer to them going to a piano camp for a summer where they’re doing nothing but piano, no distractions, 6+ hours a day of practice or whatever.

There’s actually some research on this that suggests such retreats are very valuable. Language learning, for example. Much better doing a 2-3 month intensive 8+ hours a day than attending French class a few times a week for 4+ years and you can barely speak a few sentences after all that time.

But to bring it back to the Moog One, a question seems to be whether a super complex instrument with so many possibilities makes it harder because you have too many options and can’t focus on mastery of a few basic things. For me it means having to self-impose restrictions, i.e. not trying to do/learn everything at once. But that actually holds true for acoustic and classical instruments also — you have to break things down to simpler components so the brain can learn and master them faster.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8055
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep6 View Post
Could you please tell me that the one can sound better than this!
As I posted a few days ago I finally had a chance to sit down with a Moog One, after watching many videos and listening to clips.

Well, it sounds like it is. It is not “out-of-the-box” appealing to me in terms of sounds (it is definitely appealing in terms of functionality, aesthetics, design, etc.)

There may be some bad YouTube videos/SoundCloud clips and some good ones, but that’s true of any synth. After you’ve watched and listened to a few you will have a good idea of the character of its sound. I didn’t have to watch 100 videos of the Erebus, or Minimoog reissue, or Lyra 8 to get a valid grasp of what they sound like. Then when I used them in person they pretty much sounded like they did when I heard sound samples.

With work it seems you can get the Moog One to sound closer to what “I” think (subjectively) sounds better. But I’m on the fence as I think I’d rather spend time with instrument whose tone inspires me from the start. It doesn’t have to do everything the One does if it sounds amazing (to me).

Still need more time with it to decide for sure, but mainly that’s because I *want* to like it much more than I do. It would be such an awesome tool. YMMV.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8056
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snail View Post
. But that actually holds true for acoustic and classical instruments also — you have to break things down to simpler components so the brain can learn and master them faster.
True, but that's kind of my point, not even to master, but to grasp concepts and expressive musical movements takes a huge amount of practice. but even if you master them, you have a whole 'nother infinity to worry about. I can only deal with one infinity at a time. And mastery is not just a belt you get and you are done, it takes a lot to not lose your chops. i have found limitation is almost impossible to self impose, because do you really know the boundaries of those limits? With something like the minimoog, at least i know it's somewhat defined boundaries, although if you add effects it gets exponentially complex. Even just having two non midi moogerfoogers and and Cv controllers is endless. The voyager was even way too much for me, I can't imagine the One. That's almost like some video games they have, which I avoid, knowing you can get lost for years in those things.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8057
Lives for gear
 
drockfresh's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by unfiltered420 View Post
True, but that's kind of my point, not even to master, but to grasp concepts and expressive musical movements takes a huge amount of practice. but even if you master them, you have a whole 'nother infinity to worry about. I can only deal with one infinity at a time. And mastery is not just a belt you get and you are done, it takes a lot to not lose your chops. i have found limitation is almost impossible to self impose, because do you really know the boundaries of those limits? With something like the minimoog, at least i know it's somewhat defined boundaries, although if you add effects it gets exponentially complex. Even just having two non midi moogerfoogers and and Cv controllers is endless. The voyager was even way too much for me, I can't imagine the One. That's almost like some video games they have, which I avoid, knowing you can get lost for years in those things.
Managing rabbit holes is a challenge. You could spend a year with just an eventide h3000. I wish we had that time but we don’t. The Moog One or Quantum is a bottomless pit. That’s why we need to serve the song, or impose structure or deadlines. Unless you enjoy just noodling forever.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8058
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonwhistle View Post
Yikes, that video.

There are some very good sounding clips, they just don't make it to the front page of search results on youtube. I posted a few of them here.



I think that's one of the best.
Yes , this is truly the best demo I heard so far
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8059
Lives for gear
 
maisonvague's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snail View Post
I think you’re both right, as I don’t think he was talking about a binge that is then followed by inactivity, but rather the value of really intensive practice periods of days, weeks, or months — hence the 40 day tabla “retreat.”
Yes, it would seem he wasn't thinking of binge practicing but rather intensive practicing which can be very rewarding, it's true.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8060
Lives for gear
 
maisonvague's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep6 View Post
I pre-ordered a Moog One before ...
but I've rarely doubted so much in advance of a synth as it does here.
I can imagine your feeling after watching that video. I stopped watching about four minutes in. Couldn't take it any more.

There are much better demos out there. You just need to hunt for them.

It would seem the Moog One is such a capable synth, it's capable of sounding both good and bad.

I would wait until it's in my own hands before passing final judgement.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8061
Gear Addict
 

The One definitely requires a long deep dive to grasp the extent of its sonic possibilities.
If you don’t see yourself spending days learning it, then it is definitely not for you.
BUT, don’t imagine that it cannot do classic Moog style vintage poly brass, bass, etc...
It can, even if it might take you some time to find the right settings on the oscillators, filters and envelopes...

Some classic solo/poly moog sounds (not on YouTube but... not everything is on YT ):

Eric Levy on Instagram: “#Jamming with an Abe Laboriel drum loop pt2 #116bpm #MoogOne #JamalongWithEricLevy #Moog”
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8062
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceEchoes View Post
This is what it sounds like indeed.
Most YouTube clips out there are exactly what it sounds like btw.
Rubbish.

The YouTube clips may sound thin but in real life completely the opposite.

Try it for real, spend some time with it, pick the best prests, build you own. The sound can be immense, it has the Moog pedigree all over it!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8063
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukvoyager View Post
The YouTube clips may sound thin but in real life completely the opposite.
You are trying to say that if you recorded your great real life sound and uploaded it to Youtube, then it would sound completely opposite because of Opus 160K compression ?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8064
Gear Maniac
Yeah honestly I have not heard anything great from the One yet. I still have a long time to decide but it seems like I‘m sticking to the Baloran, which has a lot less features, but to me sounds much better, I hoped the improved tuning would‘ve helped.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8065
Lives for gear
 

TBH There are some sounds on their SC page that i like.
Ampexagon and Analog Dreamscape for example.
But these two don't sound like there is a million of different modulations and effects on them.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8066
Lives for gear
 
markodarko's Avatar
 

Whoa. Got to see The One in the flesh today when visiting GAK in Brighton. Holy crapes - that thing is BIIIIIG! Didn’t get to play with it though as someone else was hogging it the entire time I was there.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8067
Gear Maniac
 

Back after some more touring.. updated to new firmware.

Must be like good wine, or my ears rediscovering it every single time, but oh boy this synth has the fattest oscillators & filters I ever heard...it's not bassy, or boomy, is not overwhelming..it's just beautifully pure bold and fat.

I absolutely love it, what a machine..keep making new patches every time...

When I finish, I'll catch up with the thread
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8068
Lives for gear
 
Phil Aiken's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep6 View Post
Hi synthslutz !



It all sounds so boring and unexpectedly thin ... I am directly shocked.
Even the layer-sound of three synth-engines "Metropolitan" (6:18) sounds pitifully thin ...

Honestly, my quantum sounds fatter than this with just one Oscillator.

These are new presets made by Moog ?
That video does not sound good - and i have yet to listen to those presets in person, but maybe just there as proof of concept of new features? Dunno.

You can love or hate the synth, that is the most subjective thing in the world, but one thing it is not is "thin". There is massive girth to be had in there. Unless you set it to be thin, and then it is.
I've heard people say it wasn't "buzzy" enough, people say it was too buzzy, people say it was too dark, too bright, and people say it was thin. All of those are true - if you have patches that are too buzzy, not buzzy enough, etc.
I tend to think SOME people who think it is thin overall are either having phase issues, are leaning too hard on the FX, or have not taken the time to figure out the filter section and oscillators, both of which differ from other Moogs. But maybe people just hear different things as "thin".Other people think the One sounds massive. Go figure.
You should definitely not purchase an instrument if you have doubts about the sound without being able to try one in person, or have a good return option in place.
I would also repeat myself that if you hear ONE video that sounds good to you, that means it can do things you like when programmed by someone whose tastes align with your own. Do those things. Don't do the other things. It is definitely not a giant sweet spot of a synth and you can make it sound bad. Or at least I can make it sound bad to my tastes, which is all I can really speak to.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8069
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
Interesting. Off the top of my head, I can't really think of any instrument that I "dislike".

As for the piano, I started playing at age four, going on to graduate from a music conservatory with a piano performance degree.

I earn a living as a pianist.

It's my absolute dearest, most favorite instrument in the world.
I tried to find this video of a piano that you could bend the pitch on, with some sort of sliders on the strings, but can't find it. That's probably the main gripe i have, other than the technique/theory of it. it's the tradeoff of expression for more notes, and as I am someone who has studied and loves indian music more than any other kind, you can see how that is diametrically opposed to my musical philosophy. as you know, pitch bend is absolutely crucial to musical expressiveness in that and many other forms.

That's why the minimoog was so perfect for me. Monophonic with rich resonant textures that would probably be muddied by polyphony. Now, the clavinet is a full on polyphonic instrument, but it is (at least a little) more expressive with a note, and you can even do aftertouch/vibrato on it. But it is electric, so I can use my effects to make it much more expressive, as it has so much high frequency material that a filter has so much power.

However, I often catch myself being self indulgent, while playing with both hands. I used to do it a lot more, but now I am using the cutoff knob more and more rather than the pedal to control partly because I can do much more precise moves on the filter, playing it almost like a separate instrument. But more than anything, what it does is forces me to only play with one hand, often monophonically, and my recordings just turn out better that way.

As an audio engineer, I have thought a lot about loudness, and how much it affects things like musical instrument design and their playing and techniques. Modern string instruments, like acoustic guitars, violins, etc have an ungodly amount of tension on them (basically as much as they can possibly handle without breaking), so much so that the vast majority of the structural problems are due to the tension. This design technique, of steep neck angles and large braces like the bass bar was completely to increase loudness (and brightness in a related way).

I theorize, from playing polyphonic instruments, that loudness is a large factor in the way such instruments are played. I know when playing, I want more and more loudness as time goes on, and if I don't think about it, i will start playing more notes at the same time with both hands, and I believe this is due to the urge for more loudness, as louder is scientifically proven to be "better". It's kind of like squashing mixes though, yeah it's better, but for how long, and does it really make the song better?

When i make this argument, people will often say that you can play a piano monophonically (as they do in some mono vs polysynth discussions), but how often is this done? Do you know of any monophonic pieces for piano? That's not to say the piano is not an expressive instrument, and I have seen many performances that were very enjoyable, just never as deep as like something like this:

Old 4 weeks ago
  #8070
Lives for gear
 
markodarko's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by unfiltered420 View Post
is diametrically opposed to my musical philosophy.
Musical philosophy?

Hmm.

Strange.

My philosophy is to keep an open mind to anything to do with music. If it helps to better express my intent as an artist and human, I don’t care if it’s got strings, cables, hammers or sticks.

To say that you dislike the piano (an instrument of over 300 years old) because it has got keys(!?) is the most bizarre thing I have ever heard.

Surely you are merely trolling here...
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