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Moog One Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 23rd October 2018
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomized View Post
This is also one if its problems. Why did they try to fix something that wasn't broken? Seems that with this "modern" approach to oscillator design they have created something that doesn't sound very analog anymore.

Could it be a cost issue? There are 48 of these "modern" oscillators, maybe they are cheaper/easier to manufacture than true voltage controlled oscillators?
I'm sure keeping costs down was a consideration, but I don't think that was the primary motivation for designing a new oscillator.

I think it is rather a reflection of the state-of-the-art in analog synthesis. The Moog One contains things that are in common use in modular systems--things such as ultra-precise VCOs, waveshapers, etc. Some very interesting things can be done with these--all in the analog domain.

For the most part "taking analog to the next level" has been the domain of modular systems. It seems to me that the Moog One has been designed to change that--to bring some of the technology--and spirit--of contemporary modular into a more traditional package--a synth that looks like a Memorymoog, but isn't.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Why would anyone on earth digitize the VCO signal with a DAC then return it back from digital to analog domain to control the frequency of the other VCO or a VCF, when he can do that with a single copper trace and an op amp / attenuation circuit. That's like 1:100 price ratio?? And A/D+D/A latency, anyone?
I do think they have hard wired modulations, but as for the CV inputs, they are doing exactly what you describe.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post

For the most part "taking analog to the next level" has been the domain of modular systems. It seems to me that the Moog One has been designed to change that--to bring some of the technology--and spirit--of contemporary modular into a more traditional package--a synth that looks like a Memorymoog, but isn't.
This almost follows the same pattern as the origins of the Model D, sqeezing the essence of modular synthesis into a musicians instrument, in this case the Moog One
Old 23rd October 2018
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
But from day one, I could already sense it was not going to satisfy my desire for a very particular kind of instrument--namely a "vintage vibe monster" with modern amenities.
I got that feeling too and so far it hasn't changed. I still hope that with all the smart people at Moog and the synths technical possibilities that they can introduce some kind of vintage mode. I don't want to have to use up the synths LFOs to get to my square one.

It's early days. I'm still on the fence.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markorbit View Post
I got that feeling too and so far it hasn't changed. I still hope that with all the smart people at Moog and the synths technical possibilities that they can introduce some kind of vintage mode. I don't want to have to use up the synths LFOs to get to my square one.

It's early days. I'm still on the fence.
They say you can copy-paste the modulation from a preset to another.
So the best thing is to build your own “vintage init” patch and then reuse it as a basis to start your own sounds.

That said, this machine is really rich and deep, quite the opposite of a preset machine.
If you are too lazy to setup a few simple modulations, I’m afraid this synth is not for you.
You’d probably save a lot by taking a DSI or even a River.

For me this machine is the ultimate substractive synthesis sound design hardware synth, but surely not meant to do a “best of” 70s and 80s synths... Even if I’m pretty sure it can do as much “warm brass” as you want...
Old 23rd October 2018
  #336
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Here’s the bottom line. Sweetwater let the cat out of the bag. Moog, knowing there would be great interest in this, is trying to quell our very interest in this flagship, by posting livestreams, answering questions, so forth. Meanwhile, the synth probably isn’t 100 percent ready to be demoed. It should be obvious to you guys, that these aren’t polished videos they are making. They are off the cuff, so to speak. But, in our excited anticipation, we fail to acknowledge this, rather instead are focusing on a 6-8k synth, and the expectation associated with it. I’m sure they read these forums, and are as excited to bring this product out as we are interested in it. Can you imagine, if all we had was speculation after sweetwater announced it? 400? 600? 800 pages, maybe deleted a few times? Pandemonium would ensue. While you can’t make everyone completely happy, I think this new flagship should make most people happy, and I expect, all in good course, the sounds you are all clambering for, will be realized. Until then, keep watching the videos they release, and discuss on!
Old 23rd October 2018
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Why would anyone on earth digitize the VCO signal with a DAC then return it back from digital to analog domain to control the frequency of the other VCO or a VCF, when he can do that with a single copper trace and an op amp / attenuation circuit. That's like 1:100 price ratio?? And A/D+D/A latency, anyone?
Because presets and polyphony? Most the mod destinations have a D/A anyway (because that's how presets and polyphony are implemented), so handling all your modulations in the digital domain fits with that architecture. At least, that's how DSI do it in the Prophet 12 and Prophet X. But those have digital oscs so it's only when using the oscs as a source for filter FM (or for FM'ing a more unusual destination like resonance or envelope params) that you really notice, and you kind of get away with it if you use an oscilator source without many overtones (so sine or triangle based waves really).

FM'ing a VCO is a different case though, and I'd be surprised if they were going through a low-ish audio sample rate mod bus for this. But maybe they are.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #338
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I don't think they are doing that, really. There are dedicated controls for osc and filter FM on the panel, and I don't recall seeing any of osc outputs as a source in the mod matrix...
Old 23rd October 2018
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinw View Post
They say you can copy-paste the modulation from a preset to another.
So the best thing is to build your own “vintage init” patch and then reuse it as a basis to start your own sounds.

That said, this machine is really rich and deep, quite the opposite of a preset machine.
If you are too lazy to setup a few simple modulations, I’m afraid this synth is not for you.
You’d probably save a lot by taking a DSI or even a River.

For me this machine is the ultimate substractive synthesis sound design hardware synth, but surely not meant to do a “best of” 70s and 80s synths... Even if I’m pretty sure it can do as much “warm brass” as you want...
You must have missed the bit where I said I'd rather not use the LFOs for this despite you going to the trouble of quoting it.

The River sounds good, the Prophet 6 I like even if it's not quite got the richness of a Prophet 5.

The appeal of the One for me is the extensive modulation but I would expect the bread and butter to be there. Not very 'ultimate' if it's not.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #340
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dsetto's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Why would anyone on earth digitize the VCO signal with a DAC then return it back from digital to analog domain to control the frequency of the other VCO or a VCF, when he can do that with a single copper trace and an op amp / attenuation circuit. That's like 1:100 price ratio?? And A/D+D/A latency, anyone?
Needless latency, lame.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markorbit View Post
You must have missed the bit where I said I'd rather not use the LFOs for this despite you going to the trouble of quoting it.

The River sounds good, the Prophet 6 I like even if it's not quite got the richness of a Prophet 5.

The appeal of the One for me is the extensive modulation but I would expect the bread and butter to be there. Not very 'ultimate' if it's not.
There is something I don’t get:
If you are into “vintage” sounds or “bread and butter”, the tons of modulations are useless.
And if you are into real sound design, then using an LFO or anything else to bring more motion is part of the sound design.
The good thing is: you will not be limited.
The A6 had 3 LFOs: the One has 4.
Plus a 3rd envelope that can act like a super LFO if needed. Plus the noise envelope that can be used also.
And then the fact that everything can pretty much be modulated.
Plus the multi-timbrality....
It’s not like you are going to “waste” modulation sources...
Old 23rd October 2018
  #342
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drockfresh's Avatar
I can’t wait for today’s demos
Old 23rd October 2018
  #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsetto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Solaris View Post
Why would anyone on earth digitize the VCO signal with a DAC then return it back from digital to analog domain to control the frequency of the other VCO or a VCF, when he can do that with a single copper trace and an op amp / attenuation circuit. That's like 1:100 price ratio?? And A/D+D/A latency, anyone?
Needless latency, lame.
To my knowledge the VCO's are never sampled, the FM is in-voice and analogue, as has been mentioned previously.

The external modulators, brought in by the CV jacks, are sampled though (initially at audio rate according to Moog), then brought into the digitally implemented modulation matrix so that they can participate in that together with the internal LFO's, envelopes and other mod sources.

Then the modulation matrix/slots outputs are DA converted before it hits the modulation destination points in the voices.

Those conversions are fast (a couple of milliseconds or so). The path from CV jack to analogue voice mod destination should take less time than, say, the path through the fastest of DAW plugins. I don't think it'll be an issue at all.

An all analogue mod matrix would be far too expensive, cumbersome and inflexible, with hundreds of analogue switches, polarity inverters and VCAs, not to mention the modulator transforms. It's simply not feasible, nor desirable.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #344
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daviddever's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
Opened the transcript:
Still if you take what they said literally, it looks like it is digital even if "hard wired".
You don't call analog audio signal "audio rate", because audio for human audience means anything from 20hz to 22khz and in a context of synths means something above usual LFO range - which would still be very low at its lowest rate.
Will need a clarification.
That's not what I gathered - hard-wired in an architectural context definitely describes point-to-point modulations controlled by a VCA, rather than software-generated LFOs and ENVs, some of which operate at audio rate (LFOs).
Old 23rd October 2018
  #345
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Somebodyperson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tok View Post
You are a very respected poster
However

Somehow I find this attitude somewhat repulsive from a small business owner perspective but I guess it’s the way it is

All I know is in this day and age one ought to find enough demonstrations of the sound of a synth to make a decision whether something is worth a purchase - I know it’s early adopter time and the demos currently hint at a great synth from description

This whole idea of synth auditions in some ways encourages people to demo synths for a few tracks and ship em back - bouncing from retailer to retailer for synth auditions

You should return a synth once in a blue moon really and for damn good reason

Agree to disagree I guess
Or maybe I’ll just rent the Moog ONE for a month of fun.
Or go to a local music store and demo it....I wonder if GC will have them on the showroom floors at some point?

But yea, the whole trying and returning isn't really much hurt to big corporations....but it does hurt boutique/small volume builders. The polite thing to do is just resale it slightly used cheaper.



Im not going to make many more, if any posts here.....the removal of the last thread really grinded my gears and we seem to be stuck in the "high features vs no tone argument"


This is how I see it:

The synth was made to be as baseline, tamed as possible. It's set up in a way where YOU create the tone, you develope it into what you want....like a blank block of sculpting clay.

I know if I ever get it I can make many usable sounds with it because this is a synth that makes you have to think beyond X + Y = Z.


I will say there are some things wrong with the demoing.

There is too much just jumping around the sounds than actual showing development and extreme tweakability to a smaller amount of sounds. Ide rather see how far you can take and warp one patch into a host of different things, and display it each time with and without the onboard effects and be transparent about when they are being used.

Ok, I go now. Time for work. Have fun people, I'll be watching but not jumping in anymore.....until Nick Batt does his review/demo then I'll give my feedback.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #346
Deleted 83f48a0
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There was a discussion in the old thread about whether the One hangs when changing patches, which I don't think was ever concluded.

@Don Solaris can you move those posts to this thread? Or just restore the old one? This was a nice idea to moderate in a less awkward way than haphazard deletions, but I think we probably just need to have the full thread, use the ignore and report buttons, and don't be too heavy handed about off topic stuff. Sometimes/all the time, topic flexibility and tangents are what make it interesting.

Re: the synth, regardless of what the usual critics say i.e. you can't hear what it sounds like because of too much reverb, but it also sounds bad, sterile and DCO/VA-like, it's clearly a great synth, and the first to combine flexibility of a P08/Matrix-6/Virus with a truly great core sound.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
From what I understood the tech deep dive, you're wrong. Osc and filter FM is directly analog, not sampled. CVs are sampled at audio rate, though - but that's different.
Yes, it was mentioned in a previous video (don't remember which one) that the Ring Mod, Osc FM and Filter FM are direct analog. Other modulation is digital.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #348
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Phil Cibley's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tok View Post
You are a very respected poster
However

Somehow I find this attitude somewhat repulsive from a small business owner perspective but I guess it’s the way it is

All I know is in this day and age one ought to find enough demonstrations of the sound of a synth to make a decision whether something is worth a purchase - I know it’s early adopter time and the demos currently hint at a great synth from description

This whole idea of synth auditions in some ways encourages people to demo synths for a few tracks and ship em back - bouncing from retailer to retailer for synth auditions

You should return a synth once in a blue moon really and for damn good reason

Agree to disagree I guess
Or maybe I’ll just rent the Moog ONE for a month of fun.
This is why re-stocking fees exist. I'd think twice if I knew I'd have to pay
$800 - $1200 for the privilege of "trying out" a Moog One.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicncars View Post
Here’s the bottom line. Sweetwater let the cat out of the bag. Moog, knowing there would be great interest in this, is trying to quell our very interest in this flagship, by posting livestreams, answering questions, so forth. Meanwhile, the synth probably isn’t 100 percent ready to be demoed. It should be obvious to you guys, that these aren’t polished videos they are making.
Nope.
They've made a proper, polished launch video.
It would have taken many weeks to plan and quite some time to shoot and edit:
Old 23rd October 2018
  #350
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BTW Later in the tech video they use a cryptic term "half audio rate" (because full audio rate would be too fast), can anyone decipher it for me ?
If a mathematical operation can be applied to it, then it has to mean some number ?
So is it 22050hz ? Does that then mean that their "audio rate" would be 44100hz ?
Old 23rd October 2018
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Nope.
They've made a proper, polished launch video.
It would have taken many weeks to plan and quite some time to shoot and edit:
That’s their official promo teaser video, and it is polished, I’ll give you. However, it isn’t a polished video going over all the details, and sonic possibilities that a synth of this nature requires, which these live stream videos attempt to cover. Obviously, and understandably, you couldn’t possibly explain everything in one or even two videos, as evidenced, by the numerous live leak videos. I would love for them to at some point offer a polished video set that outlines everything in great detail, to either include at a future time, not yet determined, or as a compendium which could be purchased in either digital or hard copy. I’d pay 100 dollars for such a thing.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by string6theory View Post
My take is that this process of creating patches for the One has really just begun. There will end up being thousands and thousands very quickly. And, how cool that they can be easily shared. Think of the sound sets this beast I’d going to inspire.

And, yes, that’s the rub with the One. It’s a new and innovative analog poly design that has modular capabilities and the ability to fine tune the many timbres, wave shapes, filters, amps, envelopes, effects, etc that will enable an old school sound just as easily as a nu skool sound. But, they do need to be developed... by you or someone else... mystically, magically or otherwise.

Personally, just as with all my synths, I prefer to shape my own sounds, while also refining other’s created presets more to my taste. It’s so rare that I would leave any preset completely as is.

So, if you’re hearing a sound in your head that you want in a track, and even if that sound is the Memorymoog you used to play 30 years ago, I am convinced that you will be able to develop that sound - very, very closely - on the One.

Then, from there, with a set of your own developed “vintage” style voice modulation parameters, you can copy and paste them into more presets to develop alternative Memorymoog sounds you’ve stored in your head, and build an extensive MM preset library of your own from there.

Of, course, others will be doing this around the world. Some side by side with MM’s, OB’s, P5’s, etc. In 2 years time let’s check back here and see how this mega poly has actually made its mark. I predict it will walk the walk, way beyond just talking the talk.
Funny, this is exactly what the sound designers for the factory presets on the A6 did; in many cases, developed patches side by side with their long-cherished vintage synths - a wide range of them, too! - and the usual naysayers all piled on with a " not feeling' it" response anyways.

I can tell you now, as I decided then and have always known: trust your ears. Opinion is always fun to bandy about online, but ultimately, I find it useless (though entertaining). Be confident if you already see and hear what you like that you'll get it beyond imagining; and that if "you're not feeling it" you can move on and do something else with your time and money. It's as simple as that.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #353
roc
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I asked this question before and now I'm starting to understand why the Moog reissue modulars coast so much ?.

Thee reissues Moog Modulars are expensive but when you hear and play them
you get the sense and feel that they are absolutely worth every penny .

This is not the case with The One , I can see someone buying it and start to have doubts about it as beautiful as it is . I believe most people who buy The One will think they would be better with a Moog model 15 , yes it's only 1 voice but it's the best 1 voice on the planet next to a 901 but thats another story .

I realise now that all analog oscillators are not made equal theres levels to it .

Give me The One with just the CV I/O , modulation sources , arp , sequencer and control surface with no sounds no oscillators for $2500 to use with modular .

The sounds of The One is not doing it for me so far even tho I wanted to love it .
Who knows maybe we still don't know it's possibilities and it may still surprise us and give that warm analog wobble we crave but for the love of all things good can someone please play a minor 9 chord pad and sweep the filter with no FX , that would be my test of yea or nay .

So far The One sounds and looks like a Sub 37 CV on crack , love the interface but not the sound but we need to hear more to be sure , I believe in Moog , you can do it , I'm still hanging in there with The One .

Last edited by roc; 23rd October 2018 at 03:54 PM..
Old 23rd October 2018
  #354
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EvilDragon's Avatar
It's not Sub 37 on crack without a multidrive.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maisonvague View Post
I'm sure keeping costs down was a consideration, but I don't think that was the primary motivation for designing a new oscillator.

I think it is rather a reflection of the state-of-the-art in analog synthesis. The Moog One contains things that are in common use in modular systems--things such as ultra-precise VCOs, waveshapers, etc. Some very interesting things can be done with these--all in the analog domain.

For the most part "taking analog to the next level" has been the domain of modular systems. It seems to me that the Moog One has been designed to change that--to bring some of the technology--and spirit--of contemporary modular into a more traditional package--a synth that looks like a Memorymoog, but isn't.
Ironically, though, analogue hasn't mattered for a long time in Eurorack. It's the nature of control over voltages that is brought one layer closer to the player that generates appeal. So, even if something like the Telharmonic is purely digital, the CV I/O is the fun part, for example.

With the Moog One you truly have that same immediacy, but you're using knobs and in some cases screens instead of wires to do the same thing.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #356
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Holy **** this reminds me of the Buchla 200 vs 200e arguments. I think the modulation going digital to apply transformations will be brilliant. Like on the 256e, no?

I don't think this is supposed to be a memorymoog. This is a Moog for 2018. Ultra stable oscillators we need to have good FM...ever try FM with a unstable poly synth? sure it's great for monosynths...but poly synths...you're gunna be hard pressed for a stable FM sound.

I've never heard a demo I like, but I have to say I'm glad they didn't do all wub wub dubstep presets. I would like some old Juno Reactor style basslines, which I'm sure this can get.

Those inserts are going to be sexy AF once I throw them through an analog heat, distort that multimode filter and make some psychedelic sounds.

They're going a little too modest and old farty sounds that prog rockers and hip hop guys want. I want to hear this synth gets weird. And with those effects built in I'm sure the synth can get VERY weird. I'm curious about how much depth the modulations have.

I'm wondering if I can trigger the envleopes via LFO? they're loopable and can be freerunning, no? to the VCA without key trigs? How slow do the envelopes go? Oscillators as well. I'd like to see how far it can go into the modulareseque spectrum.

For me thus far, the core sounds alright. Not fantastic, but definitely better than what i've heard on DSI, A6, Sunsyn, other modern poly analogs. It's hard to compete with the vintages that are for the most part boring AF after 15 minutes.

Where are the Crickety sounds? the Throbbing Gristle style rhythms? The Ozric tentacle distorted acid lines?! The Hawkwind Bubbles?! The Brian Eno style ambient shimmering pads!...the 1/16th fast repeating minor leads ala goa, Industrial Basslines...Squiggly multimode filter sounds! this is what I want to hear, and I know wit ha feature set like it's got, it definitely can make these!

I say Moog quit with the prog rock ******y and give us some mayhem!!!! I am excited to get this synth early and hopefully get a nice video/recording set up(can someone give me a clue on how to set it up proper?), and create the sounds I want to hear and show those off. I loved my Minimoog Model D for making sounds that weren't core sounds to the Model D, but marsh sounds/crickets/etc. I'm hoping this synth can provide. And with that much modulation, how the hell can't it.

Those LFOs do they go to audio rate? Sometimes getting through these talks is kind of...painful and I know they mentioned it some where.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #357
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Lady Gaia's Avatar
I finished watching yesterday's preset video shortly before turning in, and I've heard more than enough character and variety to match my expectations. I have zero doubt that people will make amazing music with the Moog One. It's should do well commercially and it sounds like there are no shortage of ideas that could show up in future firmware.

Does that mean everyone should love it? Of course not. Individual tastes are going to be all over the map. I fully expect that the vast majority of musicians aren't going to buy one, and it won't just be a question of affordability. There are other products that appeal more just because we're all seeking something different and that's a good, healthy sign that individuality is alive and well.

Does that mean I'm rushing out to buy one? No, as I've posted before I don't really have a compelling need for any more gear to find a space for and learn at the moment. Just as importantly, pure subtractive synthesis hasn't felt like a sound palette that I want to dedicate a physical keyboard to so I didn't expect a new poly to change that. Except that I keep hearing sounds I didn't expect that test my resolve! The FM side of things has me twitching and wondering if maybe I should change my mind. I'm just not going to give in this year, but I'll keep listening and learning.

When something new is announced there's a natural tendency to fill in the information void with hopes about achieving a particular sound that speaks to us. Demos are unavoidably specific and will almost never deliver that sound, so hopefully most are looking to see if the tools are available to make it happen. That's doubly true with offhand, live demos that clearly haven't been crafted by anyone with a background in live sound production. Just a quickly thrown together peek behind the scenes of a medium sized business scrambling to finish a product and show off some of their hard work with more enthusiasm than polish.

(Incidentally, has anyone charted out the plot twists in the typical synthesizer announcement / demo / release cycle? Just curious.)
Old 23rd October 2018
  #358
Well that clinches it. I'm going to have to cancel my order since the IEC cable isn't audiophile grade. I also have a sneaking suspicion the third wrap of the power transformer is a placebo masking the digital artifacts of a hidden switching supply. And OMG! They didn't use carbon comp resistors e'erywharz! TOTAL FAIL. I'd post more but I've got to go spend 5 hours obsessively tweaking my 8 step sequence for my bar band's cover of On the Run, it just doesn't get the ladies dancing unless I can dial in those 5th harmonics correctly to vintage tone specs. Heh, just some good natured ribbing folks. I love all you cork sniffing synth nerds.
Old 23rd October 2018
  #359
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
(Incidentally, has anyone charted out the plot twists in the typical synthesizer announcement / demo / release cycle? Just curious.)
Hmm, an interesting question and task, perhaps where NOT to start with a model would be Waldorf and the Quantum......
Old 23rd October 2018
  #360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukvoyager View Post
Hmm, an interesting question and task, perhaps where NOT to start with a model would be Waldorf and the Quantum......
I remember we discussed this on the OB6 and Prologue threads. The usual cycle seems to be : Announcement of new synth...massive enthusiasm...slowing and vacuum of new information...criticism and doubts...release of said synth...gradual coming together of multi-faceted consensus.
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