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Revisiting the ITB workflow many years later. Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 3rd September 2018
  #61
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Farmboy presents's Avatar
There's nout as funny as folk.
Old 4th September 2018
  #62
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The Architecture's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
But clearly anyone who clings to that belief hasn’t used Legend, RePro, Oddity 2, Roland Cloud stuff, etc. The game has really been stepped up over the past 5 years. I’m not saying that there aren’t valid reasons to stick OTB, but avoiding “plasticy sheen” really is no longer one of them.
Just using the Roland Cloud and Monark essentially changed my mind on the sound quality of VST's of recent times. The trickier part will be replicating external fx units like tape delay and spring reverb. Been looking for good VST's for those as I have been using the ones in Amplitube and Guitar Rig.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
I always feel like the people who go to the “plastic sheen” comment have made up their mind after playing with early Synthedit stuff and v1 Arturia.
Have they overhauled their first generation VST's? That might have been the one thing keeping me from pulling the trigger on the V Collection. Was thinking those emulations were getting rather dated.

Last edited by The Architecture; 4th September 2018 at 04:35 AM..
Old 4th September 2018
  #63
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sitting down with an ms20 mini and comparing it to a 10 plus year old vst controlled by the ms 20 mini IC legacy controller is a huge eye opener.

Yes the sound is not a perfect match; but a real approximation, with computer editing, polyphony, unlimited presets, and one knob per function is a incredible.


I fully expect the legacy IC price to sit above the ms20 mini on the secondhand retail market within 5 years.


Really wish the Korg would do the same for the monopoly. Roland has essentially done the same thing with the system 1 and 8.
Old 4th September 2018
  #64
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Architecture View Post
Just using the Roland Cloud and Monark essentially changed my mind on the sound quality of VST's of recent times. The trickier part will be replicating external fx units like tape delay and spring reverb. Been looking for good VST's for those as I have been using the ones in Amplitube and Guitar Rig.
Monark is good, but I think Legend is a bit better and more flexible. When I use Monark, it’s as Blocks in Reaktor where I can make my own Frankensynth. FIRE BAD! (Man, my 5 year old loves Hotel Transylvania! )

For tape delay I turn to Echoboy and IK’s Tape Echo. Both are very good. Echoboy is more full function, Tape Echo is heavier on the character. For spring reverb... I use a plate reverb emulation. I hate spring reverb, always have. I can’t really help you there.

Quote:
Have they overhauled their first generation VST's? That might have been the one thing keeping me from pulling the trigger on the V Collection. Was thinking those emulations were getting rather dated.
Yeah, some. There’s a new filter on Mini V, but it’s still a far cry from Monark or Legend. That said, it’s polyphonic and light on the ol’ CPU. I like the formant filter they added to it. CS80 got a bit better in v2, but that could use another pass for sure. Modular V sounds pretty good to me... I think maybe they gave that one some love too. Matrix 12 V sounds OK. SEM V sounds OK too. Not in the same league as the Roland plugins, though. Where I think they’re knocking it out of the park is in their DX7 and Synclavier emulations. Those things sounds f’n great to me, and the added functionality is killer. Easel V is also good, but I have no experience with the original so I can’t say how close it gets. Seems on the same level as Aalto, though I like the interface of Aalto a lot more. For West Coast modular I go Aalto or Reaktor Blocks. Some of the organ and piano stuff sounds good to me, but I don’t use sounds like that all that often. I’ve got low standards there. Overall, I’d say there are some gems, but I’m not sure I’d lay down a lot of cash for the full collection unless your cost is lower than the individual plugins that you want from them. Most of them really need an update to compete. Prophet V is laughable next to RePro. That said, I’ve made some pretty damn nice sounds using V in it’s 5/VS mode. YMMV.
Old 4th September 2018
  #65
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by supersuper View Post
sitting down with an ms20 mini and comparing it to a 10 plus year old vst controlled by the ms 20 mini IC legacy controller is a huge eye opener.

Yes the sound is not a perfect match; but a real approximation, with computer editing, polyphony, unlimited presets, and one knob per function is a incredible.


I fully expect the legacy IC price to sit above the ms20 mini on the secondhand retail market within 5 years.


Really wish the Korg would do the same for the monopoly. Roland has essentially done the same thing with the system 1 and 8.
I do like Korg’s MS20, but it is a bit dated and man, that UI needs an update like nobody’s business. One thing I’ve been meaning to do is to build my own MS-20 clone using Reaktor 6’s SKF Block. It’s been a long time since I touched an MS-20 though, so I’m not sure how close I could get. The Reaktor 6 stuff does sound great, though.
Old 4th September 2018
  #66
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enossified's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by supersuper View Post
sitting down with an ms20 mini and comparing it to a 10 plus year old vst controlled by the ms 20 mini IC legacy controller is a huge eye opener.
The MS20ic might be the best MIDI controller ever made, although it's obviously very limited in application. Even the patch cords work.

The fact that it was dropped as soon as they updated the Legacy Collection (and long before the MS20 mini) suggests the market for it was limited. I'd love to see more dedicated controllers...isn't that what the Maschine and the MPC Touch/Studio/Rennaisance hardware really are? Or for that matter the APCs and Launchpads.
Old 4th September 2018
  #67
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The Architecture's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by enossified View Post
The MS20ic might be the best MIDI controller ever made, although it's obviously very limited in application. Even the patch cords work.

The fact that it was dropped as soon as they updated the Legacy Collection (and long before the MS20 mini) suggests the market for it was limited. I'd love to see more dedicated controllers...isn't that what the Maschine and the MPC Touch/Studio/Rennaisance hardware really are? Or for that matter the APCs and Launchpads.
Still have my MS20 Controller, agreed it’s one of the best controllers ever made.

I also find the MS20 VST in need of updating, but it still produces decent results, even as a filter for samples.
Old 4th September 2018
  #68
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factors that went into me deciding to stay OTB:

a) I have given up the idea of doing this for a living, being marketed to any labels, or making money. I'm making music for myself and to share with friends and people online.
b) I use computers all day I wanted to have a little break from them and have music be more tactile
c) my established style. Which is sort of a hyperactive melodic synth solo lines with jungle and crazy effects is actually just as doable if not more so (in certain ways) with hardware.
d) I am making music with fewer elements and no acoustic elements except for the occasional sample, mixing is not the most important thing, so I can be somewhat relaxed and record the master and be happy with it. (besides needing a little eq/mastering before it goes up on the web)
e) making enough money to have a fairly fun, but fairly simple hardware studio.
f) I have a fairly solid live setup as a result of doing things OTB to begin with.
g) i love the feeling of working with an analog mixer

if any of these were true, I would reconsider:

a) more time and flexibility , if I quit my computer job I probably would start multitracking again
b) discover the newest and greatest ITB effects and synths.
c) if my mix clarity became super important and I was doing it for a living.
d) if I had to sell things and go on a budget.
Old 4th September 2018
  #69
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Jamie munro's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enossified View Post
The MS20ic might be the best MIDI controller ever made, although it's obviously very limited in application. Even the patch cords work.

The fact that it was dropped as soon as they updated the Legacy Collection (and long before the MS20 mini) suggests the market for it was limited. I'd love to see more dedicated controllers...
people were not ready for it

do it now with a proper emu and BANG !

Korg or someone else
Old 5th September 2018
  #70
Yul
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If you are good with PC’s and know how to program synths very well then ITB is the cheapest and most powerful way to get going IMO.

There are some free VSTs that can sound just as good as any hw synth 99% of the world would never know but you need to know some tricks. Hw synths already do the tricks for you.

I only do OTB once in a while to play around for inspiration..
Old 5th September 2018
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yul View Post
Hw synths already do the tricks for you.
What tricks do they do?
Old 5th September 2018
  #72
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Jamie munro's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs View Post
What tricks do they do?
recently i taught my OT how to juggle tracks while i poured a beer

still struggling with teaching the Juno how to open my beer, language barrier i think and i blame roland and their 80's manuals
Old 5th September 2018
  #73
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Muser's Avatar
you can't speak to synthesizers directly. you have to convert it to text by using a web browser first.
Old 5th September 2018
  #74
Yul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs View Post
What tricks do they do?

Good question. For typical subtractive :

Many HW synths have their modulation ranges set to some sweetspot where a softsynth may not.

For example, the filter cutoff setting, or resonance may not go beyond a certain range in HW but a typical softsynth might go further and one would struggle to make it sound good unless it knows to restrain those modulations.

On the opposite side, I recently found out the the Prophet 5 key tracking range extended much beyond 100% which was key to some sounds. In looking in some of my SW, it wasn't clear which free plug one would let me do that but many paid ones would for sure.

The Minimoog cutoff tracking via glide is also a key point for it's sound. If you really go want to sound like it in SW, you will need a softsynth (free perhaps) which will take this into consideration. The Ocs have a lesser importance here.

There is also the VCO sound everyone raves about which can be somewhat emulated via a random LFO with minimal modulation. Another way would to have a softsynth have random as a mod source sent to key note which is another great way. In any case, you would need a different mpod source/LFO for each osc otherwise it will not sound right.

You can play around with free running vs phase locked osc's which have a big impact on a unison sound for example. The new ZDF filter design is also available in freeware as well which can be nice.

Then there are FM synths and romplers (many even free) where the possibilities are quite large too!

There are litteraly hunderds of other tricks which you can look for in HW that you can then go to SW to make anything sound good.
Old 5th September 2018
  #75
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My advice to newbs is to answer a coupla major q's before they buy the first bit of gear.

One, are you planning to make music, or to help others make and distribute music, for pay?

If both, how much of each?

Two, you a Kwicky-Lube, high speed, in and out the door, fastest oil change on earth kinda studio, or one of a kind, artisan quality custom upholsterer for vintage Ferrari kinda studio?

Or both?

I don't argue with my clients when they state an opinion on ITB versus OTB. I smile and accomodate them. We don't record to tape, or claim to, beyond that, we give them what they want.

When the Control Room took over most recording duties, with dual I7s for audio and video, the mighty Tracking Room I7, once King of the entire facility, was left jobless, abandoned, a shadow of its former importance.

We leveraged the vacancy with softsynths and amp sims. Some large enough to make visible marks on Sonar's CPU meter, and, as with all things, finite in capacity, even if the ceiling is very high.

So I've spent the last month back outside the box. Or, better stated, leveraging a couple percent CPU capacity to drive hardware synths to their full potential.

We'd already done the same for guitar tube amps. A coupla I/O, some patchbays, a switch or two, and there's a whole world of Marshall, Vox, Orange, Fender, and Roland tone available without touching the I7.

And now, a sequenced DX-7, sequenced VZ-10m, and a sequenced O5R/w, just waiting for use. I'll probably swap out an Edirol SC-80 for a rack unit with many flavors, and either MidiQuest programming access or a standalone editor.

A full range of HW options, AND a full I7, waiting for instructions. Somewhere along the way, I slave- synced a Core Duo to the I7, so not only is that standing by in addition to the I7, but the synth/CPU farm concept is ready to include any of the other PCs too.

ITB?

Sure, why not?

OTB?

Of course.

Both?

It's a big horse, sonny. If you feel froggy enough to climb on, hold on tight!

:-)
Old 5th September 2018
  #76
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The Architecture's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayTee4303 View Post
E to the Fourth Multimedia, LLC

Home - E to the Fourth Multimedia

IBM PC/XT w 8086 main and 8087 math co-processor
1 MB RAM
5 MB Seagate Hard Drive
SoundBlaster Pro Interface
Cakewalk 2.0 by Twelvetone
Do you have any pictures of this setup. I also have an IBM PC XT with a Co Math Processor.
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