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Moog One - old HUGE thread Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 4th July 2018
  #31
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CathodeRay's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
Maybe is a screen like on voyager, to control things, also I think it might let you draw the osc like is a new trend now like the erica synths new osc.
Using a screen to draw waveforms for the OSC has been around since at least 1986 with the release of the Korg DSS1 .
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Old 4th July 2018
  #32
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I heard the screen will be for online shopping, where you can connect the One to your iDong and browse the entire seasonal collection from Moog, denim jackets, skinny jeans, coozies, lunchboxes, and trucker hats, each emblazoned with street art variations of the Moog logo. You'll get targeted ads straight to the synth, where you can buy add-ons like new Waveformz with a single press of the new Buy It Now button that's on the top left corner of the synth..

I'm a little skeptical, of course.

It was the trucker hats that made me doubt the story. The rest, though, sounds legit.
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Old 4th July 2018
  #33
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Rob Ocelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coorec View Post
I can talk and speculate about anything as much as i want to. Moog is not allowed to hinder that.

There is also no GS rule against it.
There is nothing preventing Moog from asking the site owner behind the scenes to take the material down either. We also have no idea why the original thread was outright deleted and not pruned in the usual manner. Something to think about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtFluids View Post
If you or I knew something then there'd be nothing legally keeping us from talking about it anywhere for any reason.
Speculating about a fantasy dream synth is one thing.

This is quite obviously an internal leak and something not intended for public consumption. You or I may have not signed an NDA, but someone most likely did. Material of questionable provenance that could have originated from a compromised computer or server. You all claim to love Moog as a company and want to help the 'little guy' but did any of you stop to think about how something like this leak could potentially affect them or what kind of advantages it gives their competition?
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Old 4th July 2018
  #34
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robinkle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
Maybe is a screen like on voyager, to control things, also I think it might let you draw the osc like is a new trend now like the erica synths new osc.
Could be. It might look a bit too thick to be just a touch surface. And having the Moog UI Developer Conference thing in mind, it might suggest it's an LCD with a touch surface that also can be used as an XY pad, as stated in the rumored specs.

Maybe some features from the Animoog are included.

It looks like it's going to be Moogs take on the Quantum, but purely based on an analog audio path with advanced digital control, hence all the modulations mentioned on the specs.

I can't wait to know more. A state Variable Filter (OB style maybe?), and a moog ladder filter and three powerfull moog oscillators. This thing can be the ultimate Funk machine, perfect for me. I wonder how much is being descrete components.
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Old 4th July 2018
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Ocelot View Post
There is nothing preventing Moog from asking the site owner behind the scenes to take the material down either. We also have no idea why the original thread was outright deleted and not pruned in the usual manner. Something to think about.
[...]
It wasn't deleted, just closed with a mod saying "(possibly temporarily pending discussion)."
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Old 4th July 2018
  #36
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Old 4th July 2018
  #37
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 

I'd love to see an example of a 3d render of hardware that was so convincing that it fooled normally astute people.
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Old 4th July 2018
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SovietSpaceChild View Post
Funny how that works. The original images of the PCB's themselves are proof positive that they exist. You are the one who claims that they are 3d renders, without offering any evidence to support your claim, putting the burden of proof on yourself, and then demanding that others prove that they're not fake for you, effectively asking us to prove a negative.

Incidentally, it is possible to prove a negative:



Evidence of absence - Wikipedia

In this particular case, as I stated above, there are no obvious clues which would indicate that the photos in question are 3d renders. Trust me, if they were there I would be the first one to call them out.

Those boards exist (it was Mutantt, btw, who claimed they were 3d renders, and I thought in fleeting response, sure, that's possible, too); whether their existence implies the imminent arrival of the Moog One is another question entirely, though.

And yes, falsification is fundamental in science (per white elefant, above), agreed with that.

I just prefer a relatively conservative (in the conceptual, not political sense) extrapolation from visual evidence particularly, in our present environment.

There's plenty of "visual reality" for things that don't exist in Marvel superhero movies, for example.

But anyways, was mainly having a little fun, instead of trying to continue to speculate on the Moog One.

What do I suspect? That it is indeed real, that it may well release by mid-August, that the prototype boards pictured (Rev B, June 19, 2017) are probably a number of iterations behind what will finally be released (my guess is at least to Rev D, <G>), and that the various comments online I've heard about it being real from people I (mostly) trust are trustworthy.

But, do I/we have any verifiable evidence of the actual thing yet? I continue to say, no.

Until we do, it's fine to speculate on everything and anything, including dreaming about the implications of all the specs presented so far, the image, etc.

We'll probably have at least 100 pages here of doing so.

And it's also entirely possible that by the time the Moog One releases, $8k will be the equivalent of $250 in 2018 dollars. I'm open to all possibilities!
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Old 4th July 2018
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post
Could be. It might look a bit too thick to be just a touch surface. And having the Moog UI Developer Conference thing in mind, it might suggest it's an LCD with a touch surface that also can be used as an XY pad, as stated in the rumored specs.

Maybe some features from the Animoog are included.

It looks like it's going to be Moogs take on the Quantum, but purely based on an analog audio path with advanced digital control, hence all the modulations mentioned on the specs.

I can't wait to know more. A state Variable Filter (OB style maybe?), and a moog ladder filter and three powerfull moog oscillators. This thing can be the ultimate Funk machine, perfect for me. I wonder how much is being descrete components.
I would guess that at this point they'd blow the doors off all the usual expectations for Moog, except for the ones of quality, and style.

Which means, SMT where needed, why not? But perhaps not for the VCO oscillators, or filters, or, probably (although every current analogue VCO is SMT these days, isn't it?), LFOs. Touch screen and digital mod matrix control, why not? Worked fine for the Voyager, and didn't interfere with its sound. Also allows for far more flexibility in patch and memory management, including communications with a computer for load and save. Perhaps a SoundTower editor released simultaneously upon ship.

The thing I find most interesting, actually, about the prototype boards is the amount of control relegated specifically to noise sculpting -- at least as far as I can tell from the layout on the middle board. There's an ARS envelope as well as PWM that looks to be allocated to same. Also, the third oscillator seems to be split onto the middle board, separate from the main board for Oscs 1 and 2, at least in terms of control placement. And it seems to be mainly triangle? Hard to say.

There are a number of design choices apparent on the prototype boards that are interesting; what looks to be the envelopes board is too blurred to tell much of anything, but they're probably pretty standard.

I'm curious as to how the numerous orange switches on the prototypes will work; they seem to be slide selectors with foam detents on the prototype board (the latter will not last 20 years, though!), but I don't know the details of how those switches are made, perhaps someone else intimate with that switch design can comment.

I worry that the knob shafts seem to be held onto the PCB board just with the little tiny feet of the chip underneath them, I wonder how reliable that will be, long haul; the pots will probably be attached to the panel surface for stability and reliability.

Is this the kind of commentary we should enjoy indulging in until release???
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Old 4th July 2018
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
(it was Mutantt, btw, who claimed they were 3d renders)
No, it wasn't me.
Just those few people who took my joke seriously.
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Old 4th July 2018
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
No, it wasn't me.
Just those few people who took my joke seriously.
Joke or not, it's completely possible.
Old 4th July 2018
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
I would guess that at this point they'd blow the doors off all the usual expectations for Moog, except for the ones of quality, and style.

Which means, SMT where needed, why not? But perhaps not for the VCO oscillators, or filters, or, probably (although every current analogue VCO is SMT these days, isn't it?), LFOs. Touch screen and digital mod matrix control, why not? Worked fine for the Voyager, and didn't interfere with its sound. Also allows for far more flexibility in patch and memory management, including communications with a computer for load and save. Perhaps a SoundTower editor released simultaneously upon ship.

The thing I find most interesting, actually, about the prototype boards is the amount of control relegated specifically to noise sculpting -- at least as far as I can tell from the layout on the middle board. There's an ARS envelope as well as PWM that looks to be allocated to same. Also, the third oscillator seems to be split onto the middle board, separate from the main board for Oscs 1 and 2, at least in terms of control placement. And it seems to be mainly triangle? Hard to say.

There are a number of design choices apparent on the prototype boards that are interesting; what looks to be the envelopes board is too blurred to tell much of anything, but they're probably pretty standard.

I'm curious as to how the numerous orange switches on the prototypes will work; they seem to be slide selectors with foam detents on the prototype board (the latter will not last 20 years, though!), but I don't know the details of how those switches are made, perhaps someone else intimate with that switch design can comment.

I worry that the knob shafts seem to be held onto the PCB board just with the little tiny feet of the chip underneath them, I wonder how reliable that will be, long haul; the pots will probably be attached to the panel surface for stability and reliability.

Is this the kind of commentary we should enjoy indulging in until release???
Why would SMT components be an issue?
Through Hole on a poly would make huge 40kg machines... you don’t see that nowadays (and I wouldn’t want that)
The Subsequent 37 has SMTs and is perfectly fine . And if voice cards are properly designed, any failure can be easily addressed by a card replacement.
And sound wise, ... no difference afaik.
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Old 4th July 2018
  #43
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Yeah I'd say the thru-hole vs. SMT debate is over; just leaving that open.

There are some who would claim the spacing differences caused by the difference in tech affect the sound; this was a big argument a thousand years ago laid against the A6 due to its using ASICs.

I never thought it really mattered, unless you are aiming for exact 1:1 emulation, which the Moog One isn't.
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Old 4th July 2018
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by CathodeRay View Post
Using a screen to draw waveforms for the OSC has been around since at least 1986 with the release of the Korg DSS1 .
Don’t forget about the Fairlight CMI.
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Old 4th July 2018
  #45
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drockfresh's Avatar
They just need to build a Studio Electronics code in a keyboard chassis with modern control chips.
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Old 4th July 2018
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM0 View Post
Don’t forget about the Fairlight CMI.
I wonder whether there might be the ability -- if drawing waves is a capability -- to enable use of an iPad to do same?
Old 4th July 2018
  #47
Deleted User
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As long as the iDong also appeases their sense of instant gratification, but does so in a non-threatening way, as to not cause a "trigger outburst".
It will be a real dopamine thrill!



Quote:
Originally Posted by RunnyKine View Post
I heard the screen will be for online shopping, where you can connect the One to your iDong and browse the entire seasonal collection from Moog, denim jackets, skinny jeans, coozies, lunchboxes, and trucker hats, each emblazoned with street art variations of the Moog logo. You'll get targeted ads straight to the synth, where you can buy add-ons like new Waveformz with a single press of the new Buy It Now button that's on the top left corner of the synth..

I'm a little skeptical, of course.

It was the trucker hats that made me doubt the story. The rest, though, sounds legit.
Old 4th July 2018
  #48
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lovekrafty's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh View Post
They just need to build a Studio Electronics code in a keyboard chassis with modern control chips.
Maybe Studio Electronic would be better at that
Old 4th July 2018
  #49
Gear Maniac
Were the threads canned because Moog irresponsibly caused massive levels of hysteria simply because they wanted to see if people will bite and agree to overpay for their synths out of pure symphathy generated by their greed-induced and completely irrational claims?
Old 4th July 2018
  #50
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robinkle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlippedZip View Post
Were the threads canned because Moog irresponsibly caused massive levels of hysteria simply because they wanted to see if people will bite and agree to overpay for their synths out of pure symphathy generated by their greed-induced and completely irrational claims?
I would ask that in the other thread. We've had a Moog One thread closed allready.
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Old 4th July 2018
  #51
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DrJustice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
...
There are a number of design choices apparent on the prototype boards that are interesting; what looks to be the envelopes board is too blurred to tell much of anything, but they're probably pretty standard.
From what little I can read and see of the pot and button arrangement, it looks like the Sub 37 envelopes. That means DAHDSR envelopes with velocity and keytracking as well as single/multi trigger, reset, sync, loop and latch switches. The S37 envelopes are the nicest ones I've ever used, so no complaints from me there.

Quote:
I'm curious as to how the numerous orange switches on the prototypes will work; they seem to be slide selectors with foam detents on the prototype board (the latter will not last 20 years, though!), but I don't know the details of how those switches are made, perhaps someone else intimate with that switch design can comment.
...
They're normal push buttons, and the little rubber strips are light guides for LEDs so that they don't leak light into neighbouring LEDs. It looks like the choice of red switch caps is meant to indicate parameters that you step through with multiple button pushes. Perhaps the designers are in a colourful mood since the Grandmother

Last edited by DrJustice; 5th July 2018 at 12:54 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 4th July 2018
  #52
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DrJustice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RunnyKine View Post
I heard the screen will be for online shopping, where you can connect the One to your iDong and browse the entire seasonal collection from Moog, denim jackets, skinny jeans, coozies, lunchboxes, and trucker hats, each emblazoned with street art variations of the Moog logo. You'll get targeted ads straight to the synth, where you can buy add-ons like new Waveformz with a single press of the new Buy It Now button that's on the top left corner of the synth..

I'm a little skeptical, of course.

It was the trucker hats that made me doubt the story. The rest, though, sounds legit.
I thought the lunchboxes were the giveaway

But hey, don't give them any silly ideas now. I'm not sure if I'd want my synth [1] connected to the net, open and ready for a new breed of viruses

[1] Not that there's much chance of me ever being able to afford it...
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Old 4th July 2018
  #53
Kja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
Yeah I'd say the thru-hole vs. SMT debate is over; just leaving that open.

There are some who would claim the spacing differences caused by the difference in tech affect the sound; this was a big argument a thousand years ago laid against the A6 due to its using ASICs.

I never thought it really mattered, unless you are aiming for exact 1:1 emulation, which the Moog One isn't.
Its not that through hole is easier to work on(it is) or that it is easy to farm out to China(it is) but the biggest downfall of smt is that how delicate it can be. Through hole is tuff stuff that if you have bad vibrations or drop it, can hurt any boards bad. Smt can fail from just screwing the board down ruff, compared to through hole that you can just throw the circuit board around it will be fine..
But yea.. Moog should use smt, it better for mass production and nobody should throw a moog anyway..
Old 4th July 2018
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
...open and ready for a new breed of viruses
leaving it incapable of anything but psytrance?
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Old 4th July 2018
  #55
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Sad Darwin's Avatar
 

Don't forget the complex waveform patent by Cyril Lance: Voltage Controlled Oscillator with Variable Core for Electronic Musical Instrument and Related Methods

If the specs on the leak are accurate, and I gel with the end product, I'd definitely find a way to pay the $8000 for a 16 voice.

I'd like to know how the dual filters are routed. If it's series that's fine I guess, but a series/parallel mix would make this the most sonically flexible VCO analog poly since the Andromeda. I always coveted the Andromeda, but when they stopped producing them reliability became a much larger concern for me, so the used market was ruled out.

Also, filter drive ala the Sub37 would be amazing. Gritty analog for the win!
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Old 4th July 2018
  #56
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Sad Darwin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
From what little I can read and see of the pot and button arrangement, it looks like the Sb 37 envelopes. That means DAHDSR envelopes with velocity and keytracking as well as single/multi trigger, reset, sync, loop and latch switches. The S37 envelopes are the nicest ones I've ever used, so no complaints from me there.
That would be a godsend. My Sub37's looping envelopes are so inspiring. Having that on a massive VCO poly would add so much to the overall functionality and fun.
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Old 5th July 2018
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sad Darwin View Post

Also, filter drive ala the Sub37 would be amazing. Gritty analog for the win!
Filter overdrive ala the Slim/Little phatty would be my pref, having had the sub 37 and slim and preferring the richer OD on the earlier Bob designed synth to the latter's, colder, harder, multidrive (the 37).

Same goes for the VCOs. Pretty tasty on the lp/slimP (a bit more 'free' and rich sounding) but a bit nasal/cold/hollow, constrained and 'meh' on the sub 37. If the LP only had the facilities of the Sub 37 it would be great, and if only the Sub 37 had the core tone of the LP/Slim it would be great.

As I said before, if they make an analog poly I hope it's more towards the sound of a 6 polychained little/slim setup than just the sub37 sound made polyphonic (and I multitracked my own S37 but it was never as nice as the multitracked or well known polychained LP/Slim sound...)

both are very cool synths though, and I'm nit-picking tone as usual, I hope any future moog poly shows a bit more character in the VCOs/OD (main filter on both was very nice though)
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Old 5th July 2018
  #58
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Sad Darwin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro5 View Post
Filter overdrive ala the Slim/Little phatty would be my pref, having had the sub 37 and slim and preferring the richer OD on the earlier Bob designed synth to the latter's, colder, harder, multidrive (the 37).
Multidrive and Filter Feedback on the Sub37 are two different things. One is just a straight up distortion circuit, the other is warm feedback.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro5 View Post
Same goes for the VCOs. Pretty tasty on the lp/slimP (a bit more 'free' and rich sounding) but a bit nasal/cold/hollow, constrained and 'meh' on the sub 37. If the LP only had the facilities of the Sub 37 it would be great, and if only the Sub 37 had the core tone of the LP/Slim it would be great.
The VCO's on the Sub37 are more universally accepted to be more muted and woodier than the Little Phatty and Voyager, but containing much less higher frequency content. The Little Phatty and Voyager both have a more full range, thick, buzzy sound, due to the higher order frequency content. A good video displaying this:



My experience playing the Voyager and Little Fatty extensively, vs owning a Sub37, has confirmed this. The Sub37 sounds more like a Taurus.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro5 View Post
As I said before, if they make an analog poly I hope it's more towards the sound of a 6 polychained little/slim setup than just the sub37 sound made polyphonic (and I multitracked my own S37 but it was never as nice as the multitracked or well known polychained LP/Slim sound...)
Fair enough. To each their own. I'd honestly accept either, but I would tend to agree that Oscillator-wise, on a poly I'd prefer a more full range oscillator. The Sub37 is a fantastic bass synth though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro5 View Post
both are very cool synths though, and I'm nit-picking tone as usual, I hope any future moog poly shows a bit more character in the VCOs/OD (main filter on both was very nice though)
Agreed.
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Old 5th July 2018
  #59
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guyaguy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sad Darwin View Post
Multidrive and Filter Feedback on the Sub37 are two different things. One is just a straight up distortion circuit, the other is warm feedback.
The Multidrive is also post-filter unlike the Phatty's, which is going to make a big difference.
Old 5th July 2018
  #60
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
Its not that through hole is easier to work on(it is) or that it is easy to farm out to China(it is) but the biggest downfall of smt is that how delicate it can be. Through hole is tuff stuff that if you have bad vibrations or drop it, can hurt any boards bad. Smt can fail from just screwing the board down ruff, compared to through hole that you can just throw the circuit board around it will be fine..
But yea.. Moog should use smt, it better for mass production and nobody should throw a moog anyway..
Through hole may be easier for a amateur to work on, but SMT is entirely repairable if not to dense and if one has proper equipment. Obviously things like large ball grid arrays are a lot harder to rework.

SMT is, in general, notably more resistant to damage from vibration, because the components are much, much lighter and have a center of gravity closer to the board, so the stresses vibration places on the solder joints are much lower. Exceptions are comparatively big and heavy components or ones that have external stresses applied to them such as switches and connectors. But a SMT resistor, say, weighing a milligram or two, will be nearly impossible to remove by vibration.

Board flex may be a bit more of a problem for SMT since the legs of through hole components do allow for a little bit of movement. Board flex in general is very rough on solder joints.

I would be astounded if most of the Chinese (or other) contract circuit board houses are not mainly set up to run SMT these days, rather than primarily through hole. SMT is quite a bit more popular.
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