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Behringer RD808 Analog Drum Machine
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7501
Lives for gear
 

Behringer should have added one more phase flip to the master output section. The phase flip was a cost-saving design to enable the wave desigher & filterbus, amirite?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7502
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm2c View Post
Behringer should have added one more phase flip to the master output section. The phase flip was a cost-saving design to enable the wave desigher & filterbus, amirite?
yup, afaik that's how they enabled send to fx

space saving rather than cost saving, i think, or maye related to a change of plan as regards fx implementation

on the rd8 diy thread i gathered more info on summing, phase iversion etc. check the beta modding guide attached to the first post, section 6
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7503
Gear Head
 

Apologies if this has been covered already. Since song mode is pants, I'm trying to use an external sequencer - yet I'm experiencing an infuriating result, with something that should just work. If I take a pattern that I made in the RD-8 sequencer, and reprogram it in my ext seq, the lower freq instruments are phase cancelling - specifically the mid/lo toms with the BD. In other words, if you create a basic pattern with all 16th notes active for the BD and MT, it sounds normal if you use the internal sequencer. But triggered via MIDI, they phase cancel, sounding awful. I've checked my routes 10 times - I don't think I'm causing this. Can anyone else confirm?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7504
Gear Head
 

Maybe it's not phasing, just a ext midi trigger offset between the two drums.

EDIT: nah, it sounds like audio, not latency. so weird, and so shtty. =/

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktslt View Post
Apologies if this has been covered already. Since song mode is pants, I'm trying to use an external sequencer - yet I'm experiencing an infuriating result, with something that should just work. If I take a pattern that I made in the RD-8 sequencer, and reprogram it in my ext seq, the lower freq instruments are phase cancelling - specifically the mid/lo toms with the BD. In other words, if you create a basic pattern with all 16th notes active for the BD and MT, it sounds normal if you use the internal sequencer. But triggered via MIDI, they phase cancel, sounding awful. I've checked my routes 10 times - I don't think I'm causing this. Can anyone else confirm?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7505
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktslt View Post
If I take a pattern that I made in the RD-8 sequencer, and reprogram it in my ext seq, the lower freq instruments are phase cancelling - specifically the mid/lo toms with the BD. In other words, if you create a basic pattern with all 16th notes active for the BD and MT, it sounds normal if you use the internal sequencer. But triggered via MIDI, they phase cancel, sounding awful. I've checked my routes 10 times - I don't think I'm causing this. Can anyone else confirm?
Assuming you've got everything coming out of the master channel so its not related to the individual outs being out of phase, I think your problem is just part of sending MIDI.

I gave up on sending MIDI in to the RD-8 pretty quickly, I'd imagine its always going to cause timing / jitter issues if the sequencer needs to process incoming MIDI data as opposed to data from the internal sequencer.

This is just speculation however - since I didn't code the thing. Perhaps someone with a MIDI'd 808 can speak to this, I'd guess this is an issue with any drum machine and not just the RD-8 (MIDI in to individual notes is always going to cause slight phasing vs the internal sequencer).
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7506
Lives for gear
 

MIDI is serial by its nature, so two MIDI notes will never be triggered simultaneously, they will always play ever so slightly one after the other.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7507
Lives for gear
 
matt pinchin's Avatar
That could also be a midi feedback loop. Midi notes are being sent out and back in again so effectively triggering the same sound twice with only milliseconds between them.
Check your midi settings
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7508
Lives for gear
It's probably Aliens.

Old 2 weeks ago
  #7509
Gear Addict
 

Or perhaps both external sequencer and internal sequencer operating at the same time. Both have the same programming. I imagine if this was the case the external data stream would run late in the midi serial queue. Just speculating.


Quote:
Originally Posted by matt pinchin View Post
That could also be a midi feedback loop. Midi notes are being sent out and back in again so effectively triggering the same sound twice with only milliseconds between them.
Check your midi settings
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7510
Gear Head
 

Nope. I've got quite a good midi setup. It's well-routed, and I've tested all possibilities of mistakes. There are no loopbacks, and no audio routing issues. I can reproduce this on the RD-8 headphone output with a single midi cable from sequencer to drum machine. My sequencer (Squarp Pyramid) has not done anything like this with any other instrument, and I've just finished an LP with it, so I know it's not me. My other drum machines are fine, and they are all using the same midi routings. I can confirm that the external midi triggering of the different drums on the RD-8 has different amounts of latency/jitter, and it causes them to phase, and it sounds really bad. However, it seems to me that it's not just a midi discrepancy between the different drums though - there's something else happening here, I feel. It sounds like there's a difference in how the drums are triggered from an audio perspective between int sequencing and ext sequencing, otherwise if it were just individual drum jitter, it would just be an unwanted flam. Why should they phase? It must have something to do with the phase inversions that others pointed out.

I can plug in the same pattern (try 8th notes on BD and MT) on the int seq and it sounds perfect. If I send via midi, they phase. So with external midi producing bad sound quality, and no program change implmented, this instrument is useless for live performance. What a bummer - hope they can and do fix the midi implementation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAnybody View Post
Or perhaps both external sequencer and internal sequencer operating at the same time. Both have the same programming. I imagine if this was the case the external data stream would run late in the midi serial queue. Just speculating.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7511
Gear Head
 

I know I asked this earlier, but to be sure - you are only recording the main output right?

I tried repeating your test here and found similar results. Internal sequencer the kick and toms are locked in. Sequenced through MIDI I get a subtle extra click sound, what I'm guessing is the two transients from the drum sounds dropping slightly out of alignment. I don't hear the phasing you've pointed out.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7512
Lives for gear
 
breakmixer's Avatar
 

Because of the long wait for the RD-9 I've been weekly checking Ebay for NAVA 909 clones(I'm a Yocto owner), seeing if any come up cheap - no! However a Yocto named TR-8080(?) built by Kump sold for a paltry £336 this week, Newly built NAVA's are still up for £900+ currently, so obviously these RD-8's are affecting sales of these other clones at 3x the price new/secondhand. People are holding off.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7513
Gear Head
 

Only monitoring the main out, not using any individual outs. It's also clear as day in headphones. Thanks for checking it out. I do hear the slight flam on the attack, but more troubling is what I hear on the decay, phasing. It's really apparent for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman_s Gold View Post
I know I asked this earlier, but to be sure - you are only recording the main output right?

I tried repeating your test here and found similar results. Internal sequencer the kick and toms are locked in. Sequenced through MIDI I get a subtle extra click sound, what I'm guessing is the two transients from the drum sounds dropping slightly out of alignment. I don't hear the phasing you've pointed out.

Last edited by ktslt; 2 weeks ago at 10:22 PM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7514
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman_s Gold View Post
...
I tried repeating your test here and found similar results. Internal sequencer the kick and toms are locked in. Sequenced through MIDI I get a subtle extra click sound, what I'm guessing is the two transients from the drum sounds dropping slightly out of alignment. I don't hear the phasing you've pointed out.
It is insane if true.

I cannot test it, but @ Jamie munro , could you try it too, please?

(Hopefully it is something that could be fixed in firmware - but then again - this is basic thing that should have worked right when going to stores - what are the Behringer testing department doing? Are they playing games or what? (No manuals made**, firmwares are buggy as hell - I mean basic functions, lot of "famous" betatesters did not find those basic/primary bugs? and list goes on).


**(yes rd-8 already has manual, but other ones don't)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7515
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by akademie View Post
It is insane if true.
Maybe not that crazy. As mentioned above, I think its a MIDI issue more than an issue with the RD8. I doubt you could send multiple notes down a MIDI bus and not get *some jitter and flams.

Someone with more drum machines than I have is welcome to run 1000s of tests and get back to us on this. I'd be really surprised if you didn't get the exact same behaviour on an ancient MIDI'd up 808. I'm not too worried about it and just use the internal seq on the RD8.

The pattern chaining / bank select / output phase issues I mentioned a few posts back are all a way bigger deal for me than slight flamming on notes sent via MIDI....
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7516
Gear Maniac
my alpha base does definitely not do that. I'll wait for this to get fixed before buying.
Anybody tested this on other new B stuff? I just got a MS1 yesterday, but haven't properly messed around with it yet
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7517
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by breakmixer View Post
Because of the long wait for the RD-9 I've been weekly checking Ebay for NAVA 909 clones(I'm a Yocto owner), seeing if any come up cheap - no! However a Yocto named TR-8080(?) built by Kump sold for a paltry £336 this week, Newly built NAVA's are still up for £900+ currently, so obviously these RD-8's are affecting sales of these other clones at 3x the price new/secondhand. People are holding off.
I did same and grabbed OG 909 still it was possible
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7518
Gear Head
 

Actually, it is quite insane to think that a drum machine or synthesizer can't handle 2 simultaneous incoming midi notes without audible timing issues, much less phasing as is the case here. Then all instruments would sound bad, and we know that is not the case. This is the only instrument I've ever seen do this.

I could settle for using the internal sequencer if it responded to program change. Hopefully that update is coming, but I have my doubts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman_s Gold View Post
Maybe not that crazy. As mentioned above, I think its a MIDI issue more than an issue with the RD8. I doubt you could send multiple notes down a MIDI bus and not get *some jitter and flams.

Someone with more drum machines than I have is welcome to run 1000s of tests and get back to us on this. I'd be really surprised if you didn't get the exact same behaviour on an ancient MIDI'd up 808. I'm not too worried about it and just use the internal seq on the RD8.

The pattern chaining / bank select / output phase issues I mentioned a few posts back are all a way bigger deal for me than slight flamming on notes sent via MIDI....
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7519
Here for the gear
 

Hi,

I have a problem with my RD8, i have it since 2 months now, but just recently unboxed it and tried it out.
Problem i encounter is, no sound via headphones / main output. I do get sound from individual outputs.
I read more people has this problem (found it via search in this thread) but unfortunately i cannot jump straight to the posts so i cannot find out about any solutions.

Is there a general solution to this problem? ( I already made a ticket at Behringer for support ) But if anyone has a solution, i would be glad to read it here.

Oh, i updated to latest firmware already and did a hardware reset multiple times no, still, no sound via headphones and main output.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7520
Gear Nut
 

I'm sorry if this has been answered before, but can someone tell me how the RD-8 responds to external clock via USB (in my case it would come from my DAW, Reason).

If I press play in Reason (with Ext clock enabled), would it start the pattern or song running on the RD-8, and remain in sync with Reason? Or is this one of the buggy issues?

Many thanks.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7521
Gear Guru
 
Jamie munro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by akademie View Post
It is insane if true.

I cannot test it, but @ Jamie munro , could you try it too, please?

(Hopefully it is something that could be fixed in firmware - but then again - this is basic thing that should have worked right when going to stores - what are the Behringer testing department doing? Are they playing games or what? (No manuals made**, firmwares are buggy as hell - I mean basic functions, lot of "famous" betatesters did not find those basic/primary bugs? and list goes on).


**(yes rd-8 already has manual, but other ones don't)
I'll happily give this a go and against other machines to see the results

Just away from home so it'll be a day or two more likely
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7522
Gear Guru
 
Jamie munro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by martinez21 View Post
I'm sorry if this has been answered before, but can someone tell me how the RD-8 responds to external clock via USB (in my case it would come from my DAW, Reason).

If I press play in Reason (with Ext clock enabled), would it start the pattern or song running on the RD-8, and remain in sync with Reason? Or is this one of the buggy issues?

Many thanks.
Yes the seq: starts on command from external

I don't use USB midi but the rd8 has zero issues here with holding midi clock over din so I don't imagine USB is an issue , sync in my case has been tested against numerous machines as master and cubase etc and rd8 was fine in this respect of holding tempo
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7523
Gear Nut
 

Thanks for the swift answer Jamie!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7524
Gear Nut
 

Actually, further to that, and more out of idle curiosity than anything else, do we know how external clock of that kind works? Is the RD-8 receiving a tempo signal 'all the time' (in relative terms), and adjusting every step accordingly, or receiving a tempo-based 'trigger' at the beginning of each pattern cycle, and it then runs through the pattern steps using its own sequencer? Or is it receiving a signal 'all the time', but ignoring it except for at the beginning of the pattern? Or something else entirely.

If you see what I mean.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7525
Lives for gear
Nevermind.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7526
Lives for gear
 
jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktslt View Post
Nope. I've got quite a good midi setup. It's well-routed, and I've tested all possibilities of mistakes. There are no loopbacks, and no audio routing issues. I can reproduce this on the RD-8 headphone output with a single midi cable from sequencer to drum machine. My sequencer (Squarp Pyramid) has not done anything like this with any other instrument, and I've just finished an LP with it, so I know it's not me. My other drum machines are fine, and they are all using the same midi routings. I can confirm that the external midi triggering of the different drums on the RD-8 has different amounts of latency/jitter, and it causes them to phase, and it sounds really bad. However, it seems to me that it's not just a midi discrepancy between the different drums though - there's something else happening here, I feel. It sounds like there's a difference in how the drums are triggered from an audio perspective between int sequencing and ext sequencing, otherwise if it were just individual drum jitter, it would just be an unwanted flam. Why should they phase? It must have something to do with the phase inversions that others pointed out.

I can plug in the same pattern (try 8th notes on BD and MT) on the int seq and it sounds perfect. If I send via midi, they phase. So with external midi producing bad sound quality, and no program change implmented, this instrument is useless for live performance. What a bummer - hope they can and do fix the midi implementation.
the only way these sounds will "phase" is if you're triggering them twice at the same time. this really sounds like you've got the internal RD-8 pattern playing in sync with the DAW, which is also sending those same notes to the RD-8 at the same time.

you're sure this isn't what's happening?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bignatius View Post
I imagine it just advances its own Sequencer forward one Step each time it receives an external Trigger/Clock pulse.

Regardless, Clock signals in their many forms are constant signals, with varying voltages, high / low, tick / tock, etc. Much like a Square Wave...

Some devices look for the Rising Edge, others the Falling, some are picky about Pulse Width, and some will move to a Gate, a Trigger, a Square Wave, an Audio Pulse like a Clap or whatever.
?? he's talking about MIDI/USB sync.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7527
Gear Head
 

100% sure, but olé - I am still a fool! Whomever said above that triggering via ext midi will always have that effect was absolutely correct. I just tried the same test on my elektron AR, both with it's internal synth engines and 808 samples, and it did exactly the same thing. So I guess I'll shut my trap and wait anxiously for program change to get to the RD-8. Sorry for this silly thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
the only way these sounds will "phase" is if you're triggering them twice at the same time. this really sounds like you've got the internal RD-8 pattern playing in sync with the DAW, which is also sending those same notes to the RD-8 at the same time.

you're sure this isn't what's happening?




?? he's talking about MIDI/USB sync.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7528
Lives for gear
 
Acid Mitch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktslt View Post
100% sure, but olé - I am still a fool! Whomever said above that triggering via ext midi will always have that effect was absolutely correct. I just tried the same test on my elektron AR, both with it's internal synth engines and 808 samples, and it did exactly the same thing. So I guess I'll shut my trap and wait anxiously for program change to get to the RD-8. Sorry for this silly thread.
If you are using midi over din sockets you can't have 2 or more events happen at the same time. There will always be roughly 1ms between events.
However, sending midi over usb you can have 16 events happen at the same time as data is sent in packets.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7529
Gear Head
 

Ah right, thanks for that reminder. I just tried from Ableton and it only phased once every 24-32 notes, rather than practically every note over DIN.

I'll try USB MIDI from my Pyramid to the RD-8 and see if that makes a difference. At least I could continue production this way. Thank you!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Mitch View Post
If you are using midi over din sockets you can't have 2 or more events happen at the same time. There will always be roughly 1ms between events.
However, sending midi over usb you can have 16 events happen at the same time as data is sent in packets.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7530
Gear Head
 

It worked, it was more or less the same as Ableton, which is way better than DIN. This is a good workaround for now, thanks @ Acid Mitch


Quote:
Originally Posted by ktslt View Post
Ah right, thanks for that reminder. I just tried from Ableton and it only phased once every 24-32 notes, rather than practically every note over DIN.

I'll try USB MIDI from my Pyramid to the RD-8 and see if that makes a difference. At least I could continue production this way. Thank you!
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