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Behringer RD808 Analog Drum Machine
Old 4 days ago
  #4441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpd View Post
So this thing it appears is yet another toy that completely missed the boat.

75% of the 808 is the sequencer and the minor timing fluctuations that give the 808 that feel. The sounds are available in over 10000000 places and do not need to be recreated here. Why do manufacturers keep completely missing the point?
This machine has a variable swing so you can get minor timing fluctuations. Any fluctuations the 808 sequencer may have had were not random, because that never sounds right.
Old 4 days ago
  #4442
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treebase DMX View Post
This machine has a variable swing so you can get minor timing fluctuations. Any fluctuations the 808 sequencer may have had were not random, because that never sounds right.
That's precisely where you are wrong.
Old 4 days ago
  #4443
M4d
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpd View Post
So this thing it appears is yet another toy that completely missed the boat.

75% of the 808 is the sequencer and the minor timing fluctuations that give the 808 that feel. The sounds are available in over 10000000 places and do not need to be recreated here. Why do manufacturers keep completely missing the point?
He’s right guys the sequencer is SVENTY FIVE PERCENT of the importance.
Just ignore that the sequencer can’t even properly do 64 steps without a hack that breaks other functions like autofill making it trigger on the completely wrong bar.
Ignore that in some situations it can’t switch between modes without having to stop and restart the sequencer.
Ignore all of it’s clunky limitations
Forget about the circuits that make the actual sounds and the quality of the beats you play with them.
Because it’s actually the magical, mythical voodoo timing fluctuations that give it its “feel” and it’s “groove” that are most important.
Forget everything else, you’re all missing the point.
Complete waste of time.

Last edited by M4d; 4 days ago at 08:49 AM.. Reason: Grammar
Old 4 days ago
  #4444
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ArtFluids's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpd View Post
I'm sure you are right. People are producing great music with free 808 sample packs too which doesn't change the fact this thing is a toy, and not the serious 808 clone they claim it is. A total waste of time.
I think cloning an 808 using magical 808 goalposts (i.e. timing, the color of the paint, faulty capacitors) would be an exercise in futility. There would always be another thing they didn’t get right, there would always be another magic detail preventing it from being a real 808.

This goes for any 808 clone, but doubly so for Behringer because they’re corporate.
Old 4 days ago
  #4445
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by M4d View Post
He’s right guys the sequencer is SVENTY FIVE PERCENT of the importance.
Just ignore that the sequencer can’t even properly do 64 steps without a hack that breaks other functions like autofill making it trigger on the completely wrong bar.
Ignore that in some situations it can’t switch between modes without having to stop and restart the sequencer.
Ignore all of it’s clunky limitations
Forget about the circuits that make the actual sounds it makes and the quality of the beats you play with them.
Because it’s actually the magical, mythical voodoo timing fluctuations that give it its “feel” and it’s “groove” that are most important.
Forget everything else, you’re all missing the point.
You don't get it. Here's something you can try.

Program your favourite 808 beat exactly as it is on the original song you love so much, but on your Behringer.
Or any other sequencer. In fact try it sample accurate in your DAW.

Mix it so it is exactly the same sonically or as close as you can get.

Why does yours still sound rubbish, and the original amazing?

Because what I said is categorically true. The sequencer in the 808 isn't about flexibility it's about the feel.

This Behringer thing is a toy designed purely to sell to people who have little idea about what an 808 actually is.
Old 4 days ago
  #4446
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtFluids View Post
I think cloning an 808 using magical 808 goalposts (i.e. timing, the color of the paint, faulty capacitors) would be an exercise in futility. There would always be another thing they didn’t get right, there would always be another magic detail preventing it from being a real 808.

This goes for any 808 clone, but doubly so for Behringer because they’re corporate.
I agree and disagree. Just clone the sequencer EXACTLY and you are there. The sounds are the easy bit. Anyone who thinks we don't have phenomenal 808 sounds everywhere for FREE needs to check their brains are functioning properly.
Old 4 days ago
  #4447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpd View Post
That's precisely where you are wrong.
You have to prove that. Are you a drummer? Or do you have some analysis of 808 timing that shows random fluctuation, a.k.a. jitter?

Randomness only applies to experimental avant garde whatever, not to the tight beats that the 808 pumps out.

IMO, the feel of the 808 is a result of a combination of regular fluctuations in timing, as well as the inconsistent behaviour of the voice envelopes from one trigger to the next.
Old 4 days ago
  #4448
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treebase DMX View Post
You have to prove that. Are you a drummer? Or do you have some analysis of 808 timing that shows random fluctuation, a.k.a. jitter?

Randomness only applies to experimental avant garde whatever, not to the tight beats that the 808 pumps out.
Yes I'm a drummer but that is neither here nor there.
Analysis on an 808 has shown up to 2ms or more drift on the hits. This is also why sample accurate sequenced drums sound nasty and you have groove quantise in any good sequencer. This is why the Atari ST sounds so good with its jitter.

In that 2ms drift is where the soul and magic of the 808 lives. To miss that is to completely miss the point of the machine just as Behringer have done.
Old 4 days ago
  #4449
Gear Maniac
 

Mods start popping up already... Reversing button color order back to OG:

Old 4 days ago
  #4450
Lives for gear
 

Im looking forward to hearing just how rubbish my RD-8 beats sound

Anyone who needs to rely on low specced processor timing quirks for their beats to sound ”right” need to learn how to program drums. Freehand nudging couldnt be easier in this day and age

Lastly, if you really are that fussy about it, connect an e drum kit via MIDI and play through the songs manually. This is what drummers do right? Bumpkin
Old 4 days ago
  #4451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpd View Post
Yes I'm a drummer but that is neither here nor there.
Analysis on an 808 has shown up to 2ms or more drift on the hits. This is also why sample accurate sequenced drums sound nasty and you have groove quantise in any good sequencer. This is why the Atari ST sounds so good with its jitter.

In that 2ms drift is where the soul and magic of the 808 lives. To miss that is to completely miss the point of the machine just as Behringer have done.
It is you who is missing the point, IMO. The drift you are quoting, is it random or does it repeat on the same beats regularly ? I believe the latter is the case.
Old 4 days ago
  #4452
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treebase DMX View Post
It is you who is missing the point, IMO. The drift you are quoting, is it random or does it repeat on the same beats regularly ? I believe the latter is the case.
If it repeated exactly on the beats it wouldn't be drift.
Old 4 days ago
  #4453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpd View Post
If it repeated exactly on the beats it wouldn't be drift.
Well, you are wrong. Random timing variations are not rhythm and do not add groove or "feel"
Old 4 days ago
  #4454
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treebase DMX View Post
Well, you are wrong. Random timing variations are not rhythm and do not add groove or "feel"
Like Behringer, I'm afraid you are completely missing the point.

Buy one if you want to waste your money.. it will 'sound' similar (like millions of plugins and sample packs already do at no cost).

But it won't 'feel' the same, which makes no sense for something that is meant to be a clone 'down to the component level'.

Look into jitter, timing and feel. Read some interviews with Roger Linn. Look at the stuff Expert Sleepers and Innerclock are doing. Spend your money on their stuff and save yourself putting this thing on eBay in 6 months time like everyone else.
Old 4 days ago
  #4455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpd View Post

Look into jitter, timing and feel. Read some interviews with Roger Linn. Look at the stuff Expert Sleepers and Innerclock are doing. Spend your money on their stuff and save yourself putting this thing on eBay in 6 months time like everyone else.
I have looked into it. You're still wrong and I'm no fan of Behringer (who never stated that this is a clone down to component level).

Roger Linn stated that there is no magic mojo in his drum machine timing.

Re-read what I posted and maybe you'll get it. I'm talking about 808 beats as heard on countless records. The 808 does not sound like a bad human drummer. Electronic dance music (house, tehcno, electro, etc) with random timing variations woud be crap that no DJ will ever play and nobody will feel like dancing to.

If you want random variations for whatever experimental thing, get an Elektron or a modular.
Old 4 days ago
  #4456
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jm2c View Post
Im looking forward to hearing just how rubbish my RD-8 beats sound

Anyone who needs to rely on low specced processor timing quirks for their beats to sound ”right” need to learn how to program drums. Freehand nudging couldnt be easier in this day and age

Lastly, if you really are that fussy about it, connect an e drum kit via MIDI and play through the songs manually. This is what drummers do right? Bumpkin
Your hand nudged beats will sound nothing like an 808. Or your ones pumped out over some USB MIDI interface. Look up USB MIDI and jitter. That protocol was designed for printers and peripherals, not for jitter free timing.

'timing quirks' as you put it are everything in music going back to the first music ever created. It's ridiculous you would dismiss that so readily.
Old 4 days ago
  #4457
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Ignored.
Old 4 days ago
  #4458
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treebase DMX View Post
I have looked into it. You're still wrong and I'm no fan of Behringer.

Roger Linn stated that there is no magic mojo in his drum machine timing.

Re-read what I posted and maybe you'll get it. I'm talking about 808 beats as heard on countless records. The 808 does not sound like a bad human drummer. Electronic dance music (house, tehcno, electro, etc) with random timing variations woud be crap that no DJ will ever play and nobody will feel like dancing to.

If you want random variations for whatever experimental thing, get an Elektron or a modular.
I have no idea what you are talking and it has no relevance to what I've been explaining. Who said an 808 should sound like a bad human drummer? That is ridiculous.

Also, do you have a reference for the Roger Linn quote or is that made up?

Do you understand why people still use the MPC-60s that is on countless records that you and your DJ friends no doubt dance to, which doesn't have this perfect timing you talk about?
Old 4 days ago
  #4459
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treebase DMX View Post
Ignored.
"Realised I'm wrong"
Old 4 days ago
  #4460
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That crack must be hella good in the innerclock chapel huh

Hope you are seeing the forest from the trees bruh
Old 4 days ago
  #4461
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpd View Post
... To miss that is to completely miss the point of the machine just as Behringer have done.
I see you have a pre-production unit, what are your thoughts on it? How do the drums sound, what is the workflow like, and, I take it you don't like the swing?

Doesn't really miss the point since there are "clones" that don't even have a sequencer and plenty of inspired modules - it can be externally sequenced right?
Old 4 days ago
  #4462
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by praiseallah View Post
I see you have a pre-production unit, what are your thoughts on it? How do the drums sound, what is the workflow like, and, I take it you don't like the swing?

Doesn't really miss the point since there are "clones" that don't even have a sequencer and plenty of inspired modules - it can be externally sequenced right?
I don't need a unit. I've read enough from the spec. I'm not one for being into boxes based on what they look like and marketing drivel.

Good luck triggering externally (over USB?) and getting that authentic 808 sound. Can't wait to hear it!
Old 4 days ago
  #4463
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpd View Post
Look into jitter, timing and feel. Read some interviews with Roger Linn. Look at the stuff Expert Sleepers and Innerclock are doing. Spend your money on their stuff and save yourself putting this thing on eBay in 6 months time like everyone else.
Ok so to break it down:

You claim the TR-808 has magical clock jitter. (I agree it has jitter, the magical part is a matter of taste).

Instead of buying an 808 clone, you recommend buying innerclock stuff. (Innerclock stuff has been developed to minimize clock jitter).

TL;DR Your reasoning makes no logical sense.
Old 4 days ago
  #4464
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ArtFluids's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpd View Post
I agree and disagree. Just clone the sequencer EXACTLY and you are there. The sounds are the easy bit. Anyone who thinks we don't have phenomenal 808 sounds everywhere for FREE needs to check their brains are functioning properly.
You and I are clearly in a different boat. I actually wish the RD-8 had trigger inputs for each sound because I would rather use the Cirklon to sequence it.
I personally prefer really tight mechanical rhythms. I might never get an RD-8 and instead will probably just get Tiptop or Hexinverter clones of the drums instead.
Here's hoping Behringer makes some super cheap (like $50 apiece) eurorack modules of the 808 drums.
Old 4 days ago
  #4465
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crims View Post
Ok so to break it down:

You claim the TR-808 has magical clock jitter. (I agree it has jitter, the magical part is a matter of taste).

Instead of buying an 808 clone, you recommend buying innerclock stuff. (Innerclock stuff has been developed to minimize clock jitter).

TL;DR Your reasoning makes no logical sense.
The point is that you have to go to zero jitter and build from there. You can simulate in part then with with groove quantise.
Old 4 days ago
  #4466
Lives for gear
RD-8 does have a sync option? If it does, you can just build simple a midi clock with your favourite jitter.
Old 4 days ago
  #4467
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Let's not go down the 'timing' rabbit hole please, jeez.
It's not even out yet!
Old 4 days ago
  #4468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdpd View Post
This Behringer thing is a toy designed purely to sell to people who have little idea about what an 808 actually is.
Would you like me to help you spell patronising?
Old 4 days ago
  #4469
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtFluids View Post
You and I are clearly in a different boat. I actually wish the RD-8 had trigger inputs for each sound because I would rather use the Cirklon to sequence it.
I personally prefer really tight mechanical rhythms. I might never get an RD-8 and instead will probably just get Tiptop or Hexinverter clones of the drums instead.
Here's hoping Behringer makes some super cheap (like $50 apiece) eurorack modules of the 808 drums.
Agreed. I would go a different route. I was commenting purely on the point that this box is not going to be close to an 808.
Old 4 days ago
  #4470
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedmanzie View Post
Would you like me to help you spell patronising?
Just simple facts. It's Behringer's marketing that you should maybe send your spelling to.
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