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Why Don't New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 16th April 2018
  #241
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Analog Four has an oscillator drift as well. I have no cock in this fight, as I've never even played a vintage analog synth. Based on some of the answers above, maybe I'm better off. I have a hard time believing my AS1, Abyss, and DRM1 can be outdone by any old synth, but I'll remain happily ignorant for now.
Old 16th April 2018
  #242
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robot gigante's Avatar
I'd be careful about confusing drift with good oscillator sound. The stability argument is pretty old, I remember some heat about the topic way back when 5u was the modular of choice for most- the perfect MOTM oscillator versus the more drifty others iirc. Both sides represented their viewpoint well. It's an old argument. I am still not sure about drift, while it's true that the drifty VCO's in my MFB synth 2 sound equal to vintage, I don't know if it's because they are drifty. I patch my digital synths to make them drift. It sounds great but the oscillators sound the same to my ears, just more or less detuned at any given moment.

Unstable VCO's are a disaster in a polysynth, unless you want chaos. When a Memorymoog went off the hinges for example, it was unusable. Even in a temperature stable environment it still was twitchy. You don't want that in a new polysynth. Especially if you are modulating the sound a lot, a stable oscillator is more necessary than in a monosynth. As for the rest of the signal path, again, there is a threshold where the instability and distortion that works for a monosynth won't work for a polysynth. I don't consider stable and clean to be unmusical or unusable at all, nor do I think it sounds the same as digital. How clean and stable a synth you need depends on how you want to program it, assuming that it has proper modulation capabilities. I might crave the sound of the old MM, but something like a Minilogue would find its way into more recordings because it's clean and stable.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned about modern synths is that the parameter ranges tend to be wider, which is a good thing, but it takes a little more precision and may lead to some mistaken conclusions about the basic sound compared to if the synth is one big sweet spot.

While the one-way cable comparisons were entertaining, I'd like to think that there is more to designing an oscillator than soldering up a cable, and that there are some better designs than others. I'd even entertain the notion /s that some oscillators are purposely designed for specific tasks (stable for FM etc.).

Last edited by robot gigante; 16th April 2018 at 07:05 PM..
Old 16th April 2018
  #243
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string6theory's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by neonrider View Post
you guys are kidding yourselves if you think industrial design in synths fully determines people's opinions about how they sound. let's be honest: it's a convenient way for you to think you're smarter than people. they must be pretty dumb to be fooled that easily. maybe they don't have ears at all--but you do, right?

the fact is that non-musicians think the ob's all look the same, and they can't tell the p6 from the p5 from the p600, etcetera. to them ALL these synths are more or less the same, they ALL look like they're from the 70s, 80s, etc. they all look "vintage" or "classic".

my ob-8 and ob-xa are 100% indistinguishable to the untrained eye--but even kids (maybe especially kids) can immediately comment on how different they sound after about ten seconds. is anyone who notices this difference fooling themselves? are they just dumb? is that really how you think about the world?

according to your logic, you assume "older is better" to people. but the synth they're most visually impressed by is the andromeda--yet it's also the one they're usually most consistently sonically underwhelmed by. they will almost never play with it twice, whereas i can't tear them away from the classics.

so if you want to find rationalizations, by all means go for it. if you want to pretend that no one notices these differences, do the test yourself, classic versus modern--but really do it, with non-musicians, and don't introduce your own biases into it, which by now i think i've clearly proven.

the larger facts that support my point. vintage prices are still rising to scorching heights, not falling--more and more every year. meanwhile, used prices of new VCO synths are falling. the market agrees that there are real differences between these. can sentimentality really explain why a P5 costs 3x a P6? you insult people's intelligence that way a little, i think.

so let me cross post what i did in the prologue thread.

none of the new VCO synths seem to have genuine, real, authentic, uncontrolled oscillator instability. something is going between dsp and voltage control that sucks the musicality out of these oscillators. it's true that if all you've played is soft synths then new VCO synths sound alive. but if you put them next to their grandparents, it's immediately apparent that something is very, very wrong with the approach of constant DSP pitch/phase correction versus primitive autotune.

no matter what you do, new VCO synths sound like frozen statues compared to living things. and it is still a little unclear exactly why.

the prologue has it a little less than the DSI synths, but it is still very much there. you don't get the smush for lack of a better word. you get many hard-edged oscillators kind of attacking each other with sonic knives, just the same as with the OB-6 or P-6.

now, all this is a very weird thing, because that means new VCO synths have nice tone, which is what we used to say we were looking for. but they are missing something beyond tone--let us simply call it character or aliveness or musicality.

if i play one note on a prologue, ob-6, p-6, it's OK--maybe it even stands the test. but if play two, three, a chord, two chords, three chords, on those, versus a classic VCO synth--there's no mistaking new for old. one is nasty, aggressive, biting, sharp, shrill--and the other is warm, it sings, it roars, it pulses.

this is apparent to anyone who listens, not just me, and i've tried this test many, many times, new versus old VCOs. the difference is so stark and apparent that when i do the test with non-musicians, after a few minutes, their ears "tire" of the raw sound of new VCO synths--they even clutch their ears, many times, they themselves walk away, turn off the keyboard, etcetera--but this never happens with the old ones. they always want to play on the old ones endlessly. they cannot get enough of the sound, the purity, the motion, the aliveness.

the new ones just do not have that magic, and it is something to do with pitch/phase being controlled far too tightly, beyond the threshold of musicality. just like a guitar always in absolute perfect tune will end up sounding like it's attacking your ears, not pleasingly soothing them.

this is especially true of the 0B-6 and P-6. something in there is like an artificial reproduction of VCO drift, when "slop" is applied, and without it, just like that perfectly tuned guitar, the result is shrill, biting, harsh, and unpleasant.

i want to say that in a nice way. it's far, far better than software. it's a beautiful thing to have new analogues again. but this generation of computer control over voltage needs improvement. these algorithms are not working very well.

the question that needs to be asked is this:

why try to "improve" on primitive autotune at all? what need is there for super-tight always-on control, anyways? doesn't that defeat the point of an analogue synth?
You actually wrote;

“one is nasty, aggressive, biting, sharp, shrill--and the other is warm, it sings, it roars, it pulses.”

“the result is shrill, biting, harsh, and unpleasant.“


eBay prices are also about the scarcity of an item, the mythology surrounding said item and scamming suckers who know not what they are doing - more often then not.

It truly sounds to me like you’re really trying very hard to justify your own (VCO) synth collection, which is (disturbingly to you and some others) slowly being superseded and replaced by the newer VCO synth offerings - which offer a much better overall sonic and musical experience for their owners.

What are you supposed to do to remain in the reigning supreme analog synth position you’ve previously been in (in your mind), buy new synths to replace your awesome vintage synth collection? Of course not, that’s ridiculous. Yet, you loved this position. Now others are easily superceedding you (in your mind) and you feel deeply offended (it’s obvious).

It’s also been proven that our vision can significantly influence and even overrule our hearing. This could easily explain your casual experiments with friends, who are naturally very impressed and even overwhelmed by these mega-classics... they’re seriously impressive on all counts. And, your love for them shines through.


The way I see (and hear) it, youre completely discrediting yourself describing these new VCO synths as you have. Those - including experienced musicians and music pros - who have owned and used these synths, then hear your biased take on them, know that you’re completely full of poop, frankly speaking.

Old 16th April 2018
  #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by string6theory View Post
It’s also been proven that our vision can significantly influence and even overrule our hearing. This could easily explain your casual experiments with friends, who are naturally very impressed and even overwhelmed by these mega-classics... they’re seriously impressive on all counts. And, your love for them shines through.
Not to mention...what exactly are we comparing on these new and old synthesizers? What is being played for comparison? I can make a minimoog sound like hot garbage, it's a goddamn synthesizer, capable of thousands and thousands of sounds—it's not like we're comparing acoustic guitars. So...what did these anecdotal friends play? Presets? Init patches? Filter sweeps? Even when comparing identical patches, you can only ever make them so close, and the type of patch made will also influence the experiment, because said patch might lean toward a more vintage style. If you're comparing modern and vintage synths with vintage sounds, you would be giving an edge to vintage by playing to its strengths. There's just no good way to objectively compare synths, because even the worst of 'em can excel at some niche sound that makes them worthwhile. Sometimes, you have to spend weeks with a synth before discovering its sonic potential, before finding its colors that appeal to you. To think that this "experiment" proves anything is absurd.
Old 16th April 2018
  #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnalvl View Post
If Gearslutz were a car forum:
OP: "I've been getting bad gas mileage lately. Could it be because of the fuel injectors, spark plugs, air filters, or all of the above?"

50% of replies: "Your question is invalid because you blamed the gas without ever considering the fuel injectors, spark plugs, or air filters."
If Gearslutz were a restaurant forum:
OP: "I noticed the chicken sandwich doesn't taste as good lately. Could it be because of the lettuce, tomato, the bread, or all of the above?"

50% of replies: "Your question is invalid because you blamed the chicken without ever considering what's in the rest of the sandwhich."

here you go again let me fix your bad analogies so you can see what everyone is saying back to the op

"I've been buying bad gasoline lately. In my new car my mileage is worse than my old car's. The old gasoline I bought never gave me these problems. Why does the new gasoline suck so bad at giving me mileage in my new car? By the way I drove some friends around and they all noticed the same."


and bad analogy fix #2

"I noticed the chicken patty in my McChicken doesn't taste as good as the patty in the Wendy's Spicy chicken sandwich. After eating the whole sandwich and letting my friends taste both as well they all agreed the Wendy's sandwich was better. Why is the chicken patty in the McChicken worse?"
Old 16th April 2018
  #246
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you can't point to one component in a synth and say it's that component that makes it sound better or worse than another one.

likewise sweeping statements about old vs. new have no meaning. as stated before lots of old vco based synths sounded like ass, and plenty of new ones sound good.

compare a faithful replica of an old synth to the original and you'll be hard pressed to spot any real difference other than maybe knob positioning to achieve same sound settings due to age or subtle parts differences like the pots having a slight variance.
Old 16th April 2018
  #247
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and before you guys jump in with ob-6 sounds worse/better than ob-x/ob-xa/ob-8 etc...
prophet 6 sounds not as good as prophet 5
minilouge not as good as mono-poly
etc...

they aren't the same synths and were never designed to be copies of the originals.
Old 16th April 2018
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post
Yea, well, the purpose obviously needs to be to please musicians (and customers) not nerdy engineering ideals.
No, and this is the real issue. Enginerrs have no idea what pleases a musician, and the more they get feedback from musicians, the more confusing the consensus is. Many a manufacturer has had a new synth crash on the rocks without understanding why. The shifting goal posts from the musicians makes its very hard to predict a hit or a flop. This whole thread is an example of totally conflicting advice from musicians.

Just let the engineers do their job, and pick from the very wide choice the ones you like. And don't forget that your creativitity makes the music. Look what happened with drum machines which didn't sound like actual drums and a bass synth which was near impossible to understand.
Old 16th April 2018
  #249
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Gnalvl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by W-W-Int View Post
here you go again let me fix your bad analogies so you can see what everyone is saying back to the op
Objectively wrong.

People like Chrisso and Gringo Starr are literally saying the OP's question is invalid because he's "blaming the oscillators and not considering the whole signal path" when he literally says in his post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by neonrider View Post
Is it clocking, pitch control, amps, signal chains? All the above?
Anyone saying neonrider didn't consider the rest of the signal path in his question quite clearly did not read his OP all the way through, and just rushed to derail the thread with the first strawman they could think of.

This is exactly equivalent to claiming someone is blaming one ingredient in the sandwhich instead of considering the rest of the ingredients, when literally they asked if the other ingredients were to blame in their original question.

This is also exactly equivalent to saying someone is blaming the gasoline instead of the rest of the car, when they literally asked about the rest of the car in their original question.
Old 17th April 2018
  #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante View Post
I'd be careful about confusing drift with good oscillator sound.
The temperature related drift doesn't change the timbre of a single oscillator.
Oscillator 50/60Hz flutter does though.

What the drift does is it makes the beating between 2 or more oscillators more alive.
Without it, the beating would be static and boring and possibly sleep inducing.

Also IMHO the best kind of drift is digital drift.
Because it oscillates around the correct pitch.
Old 17th April 2018
  #251
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Analog Rob Lowe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by neonrider View Post
Why Don't New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs?
Because Uli said so.
Old 17th April 2018
  #252
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GeorgeHayduke's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaveItAll View Post
..

Just let the engineers do their job, and pick from the very wide choice the ones you like.
Ok, what is 'their job'?

Look back ten years, there was not a choice, by and large. It took a great deal of nerd nudging to get analog back for real. Seems they couldn't figure it out without a lot of musicians yelling, and a lot of vintage prices exploding.

Let me quote you again from previously:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaveItAll View Post
They wanted them to be in tune all the time. They wanted them to have very sharp edges for high harmonics. You are the lucky generation who got it.
So, this last sentence is really to be read at face value. Good luck in professional life with that attitude..
Old 17th April 2018
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post
Ok, what is 'their job'?
Exactly, you think these components just know how to connect themselves and someone with a lot of experience isn't spending their career designing circuits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post
Look back ten years, there was not a choice, by and large. It took a great deal of nerd nudging to get analog back for real. Seems they couldn't figure it out without a lot of musicians yelling, and a lot of vintage prices exploding.
Clearly I am talking about the huge range of analog right now. There's plenty to choose from. Please don't act like posting rants on a forum did that, experiments with sales did that. I see no proof that GS posting is anything like a majority view of synth buyers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post
Let me quote you again from previously:

"They wanted them to be in tune all the time. They wanted them to have very sharp edges for high harmonics. You are the lucky generation who got it."

So, this last sentence is really to be read at face value. Good luck in professional life with that attitude..
Let me modify my quote.

"YOU wanted them to be in tune all the time. YOU wanted them to have very sharp edges for high harmonics. YOU are the lucky generation who got it."

People dumped analog in droves for in tune and few sounding synths. We are too spoilt.
Old 17th April 2018
  #254
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Acid Mitch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnalvl View Post
Objectively wrong.

People like Chrisso and Gringo Starr are literally saying the OP's question is invalid because he's "blaming the oscillators and not considering the whole signal path" when he literally says in his post:
.
I think the confusion comes from the op stating things like "New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs?
I don't want to debate *if* they do. That much is obvious"

And "
The question is why. Why do old VCOs sound so much better that even to amateurs it's never any contest? Or even old DCOs? The DeepMind has no emotional effect on people whatsoever. The Juno makes them swoon. Etcetera"

Last edited by Acid Mitch; 17th April 2018 at 09:41 AM..
Old 17th April 2018
  #255
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GeorgeHayduke's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaveItAll View Post
Exactly, you think these components just know how to connect themselves and someone with a lot of experience isn't spending their career designing circuits.........
Ehh, whatever, sorry about the nerd comments..
Old 17th April 2018
  #256
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Gnalvl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Mitch View Post
I think the confusion comes from the op stating things like "New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs?
Exactly, the thread title is "Why don't new VCOs sound as good as old VCOs", not "Why are new VCOs worsethan old VCOs".

The thread title isn't stating that new VCOs are worse, it's stating that they sound worse, which implies that anything in the signal path could be causing a reduction in the VCOs' sound quality.

This implication is further illustrated in the content of the post, when he outright asks what else in the signal path could be impacting the sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Mitch View Post
"I don't want to debate *if* they do. That much is obvious"
And "
The question is why. Why do old VCOs sound so much better that even to amateurs it's never any contest? Or even old DCOs? The DeepMind has no emotional effect on people whatsoever. The Juno makes them swoon. Etcetera"
So what? None of that has anything to do with ignoring the signal path in favor of VCOs. If anything, the fact that he criticizes new DCO synths further shows that he's addressing the shared signal path elements of new synths rather than the oscillators themselves.

People can argue with him because they don't agree new VCOs sound worse, or they don't agree that the Deepmind sounds bad, or they don't agree with his subjective "testing methods"... but it's a completely false premise to say he didn't address the rest of the signal path, when it's an objective fact that he did this from his OP.

And if we're being honest, it's obvious that most detractors came up with their "didn't consider the signal path" strawman just based on the thread title, without even reading the content of the post. They're not honestly addressing the discussion, they're just reacting to the OP's abrasive tone, because the they're offended by the insinuation that new analogs might not sound as good.

But sorry, this a thread about synths, not whether or not you like neonrider. If you don't like neonrider, go make a thread about him in the off topic forum, or PM him to his face. Don't pollute a synth discussion with completely false strawmen because you can't even figure out how to argue the actual points you disagree on.
Old 17th April 2018
  #257
Gear Addict
 

Anyone made any decent tunes recently?
Old 17th April 2018
  #258
PES
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PES's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWiggly View Post
Anyone made any decent tunes recently?
Yep.

Using DCOs, VCOs with digital modulators, pure analog synths (analog modulators), pure digital synths and samples. All good.

Haven't used my only "vintage" VCO synth in a while though, but put it back into the setup yesterday after many months shut off. It's of the lowly kind with crude digital modulators, but still good (produces sound that you can tweak to your liking).
Old 18th April 2018
  #259
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Acid Mitch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnalvl View Post
Exactly, the thread title is "Why don't new VCOs sound as good as old VCOs", not "Why are new VCOs worsethan old VCOs".
That’s good. Thanks for confirming we’ve been reading it correctly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnalvl View Post
So what? None of that has anything to do with ignoring the signal path in favor of VCOs. If anything, the fact that he criticizes new DCO synths further shows that he's addressing the shared signal path elements of new synths rather than the oscillators themselves.
He switches from talking about vco’s to talking about dco’s and then entire synths.
The recurring theme being vintage always sounds better, which is not everyone elses experience. If he stuck to talking about vco’s, there would be less for people to disagree with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnalvl View Post
And if we're being honest, it's obvious that most detractors came up with their "didn't consider the signal path" strawman just based on the thread title, without even reading the content of the post. They're not honestly addressing the discussion, they're just reacting to the OP's abrasive tone, because the they're offended by the insinuation that new analogs might not sound as good.
If we are “being honest”, then how can you come to those conclusions ?
Most posts I’ve read that are disagreeing are from people who have compared both vintage and new oscs and came to the conclusion that some vintage oscs sound better than some new oscs and some new oscs sound better than some vintage and some are more or less the same. It’s the ops claim that vintage oscs always sound better that seems to be the main bone of contention IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnalvl View Post
But sorry, this a thread about synths, not whether or not you like neonrider. If you don't like neonrider, go make a thread about him in the off topic forum, or PM him to his face. Don't pollute a synth discussion with completely false strawmen because you can't even figure out how to argue the actual points you disagree on.
Dude, all I was doing was pointing out where I think the confusion comes from.
I don’t know how you can get from my posts that I don’t like neonindian or am offended by what he has said. And where have I polluted the thread with strawmen ?
Old 18th April 2018
  #260
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Digital oscillators sound better than both.

I don't want to debate whether they do or not, it's obvious to anyone who has ears.

Put a dog in the room with a digital vs. analogue synth and the dog's attention will always gravitate to the former. It's a universal reaction, no question.

Why is it that digital synths sound SO much better?! It's amazing! So much more range, clarity, freedom to sculpt the sound; massive polyphony, vastly more range, far better at emulating the performative expressivity of natural instruments. Why, anyone arguing otherwise knows nothing about synthesis, or music, and has probably never done more than play presets!

Old 18th April 2018
  #261
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Gnalvl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Mitch View Post
He switches from talking about vco’s to talking about dco’s and then entire synths.
The recurring theme being vintage always sounds better, which is not everyone elses experience...

...It’s the ops claim that vintage oscs always sound better that seems to be the main bone of contention IMHO.
Who cares? Those disagreements were not the subject of the posts you responded to, nor were they the subject of the thread.

He says in the first line of the post that he's not interested in debating whether or not vintage sounds better, and that the subject of the discussion should really be about what design/engineering/component factors are causing a difference.

Thus if you come into the thread arguing about something he's specifically said should not be the topic of discussion, then you're willingly derailing it and trolling...or your reading comprehension is just bad.

And why would you even click the thread if that's your position in the first place? If you've been at Gearslutz for more than 2 minutes, then you know that the mere subjective debate about whether vintage sounds better is done to death and you'll never change someone's mind about it, so it's not even worth addressing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Mitch View Post
If we are “being honest”, then how can you come to those conclusions ?
Most posts I’ve read that are disagreeing...
The post you quoted was not about the people you read, it was about the specific line of reply cited in my post, wherein users like Chrisso, Gringo Starr, Jamie munro, SSM2030, W-W-Int, and Helmey keep repeating that the discussion is invalid because he blamed VCOs instead of considering the rest of the signal path. It should be obvious by now that these posts represent a significant percentage of those arguing with the entire premise of the thread.

This is something I've been pointing out since page 4, and it's the subject being explicitly addressed when you quoted my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acid Mitch View Post
I don’t know how you can get from my posts that I don’t like neonindian or am offended by what he has said. And where have I polluted the thread with strawmen ?
Dude are you 5? The world doesn't always revolve around you. I was talking about the people and line of argument cited in my posts. If you don't want to talk about the subject of my posts, don't specifically quote and respond to the topics in my posts.

Stop trying to turn other peoples' debates into your own self-insertion fanfic. I'm sure there's a Twilight subreddit somewhere where that kind of behavior would be more welcome.
Old 18th April 2018
  #262
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Jamie munro's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnalvl View Post
Blatant strawman arguments.

Answer me this guys: what part of the OP's post actually denies discussion of the rest of the signal path as an influence on the final sound of the oscillators?

Spoiler alert: absolutely none of it does. In fact he even acknowledges this possibility in his post, suggesting that the autotune functionality could be a culprit. Others in the thread cited amps, PSUs, digital controllers, capacitors in the filters, and so forth, which were actually constructive, intelligent contributions to the discussion. At absolutely no point in the thread did anyone state that answers like these were off-topic because they didn't involve the oscillators, because absolutely no one ever denied the involvement of the rest of the signal path.

Imagine this:
A man goes up asks a group of plumbers and city water experts and asks "my tap water tastes funny, what do you think is the problem?".

They reply "well there's a whole network of pipes between the water source and your tap, but you're only focused on the water, so your question is invalid lololololololololol".
Is that an intelligent or constructive answer to the question?

No, it's stating the obvious, the exact kind of stupid answer you'd only get from forum trolls.

Everyone knows water goes through pipes, and the man never said it couldn't be something in the pipes. In fact, given that the people he asked are supposed to be knowledgeable about the topic, he probably expected that they would have some intelligent answer regarding what substance could be getting into the pipes, how and where it's getting into the pipes, how it could be prevented from getting in, or what he could do to take it out after the fact.

Anyone who approaches a discussion with this kind of self-defeating strawman BS clearly was never honestly attempting to address the topic. In fact, it's pretty obvious they were looking for the first chance to avoid addressing the topic and just derail it instead.
10 out of 10 for your long winded analogy

STRAIGHT from the bat the OP is a troll post, had it been worded differently then it may have received less sarcasm initially.

At NO point did he/she say synths, the thread is aimed at VCO comparisons no? Literacy is our friend you are correct, i believe it goes something like this - i played my moog and wow people fall over themselves, i played my p6 and meh they all went to my neighbours egg and cress party. Exactly how is that comparing VCO of old and new? OP should have said synths suck in comparison, or at the very least said here are the tapped outputs of a Moog OSC and the tapped out of a DSI and so on and so forth to offer something tangible to the OP but no, we went the usual route of vintage synth is king and it ends in the usual and predictable cul-de-sac.

Oh, you talk smack of high morals and come bounding in like a daft and happy Labrador preaching about intelligent posts and offering something worthy to a discussion instead of intentionally trying to derail it, well look above at your post, glass houses youth, glass houses

i know from previous form that you'll no doubt want a 45 post exchange with multi quotes from 2010 onwards so do your bit and enjoy it
Old 18th April 2018
  #263
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Jamie munro's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Knoch View Post
I agree. Below is my buddy Ken's stack of Prophets in his studio. Notice the 6 just above the 5. Just after this photo was taken he and another friend and I were in this studio using these Prophets. My pals had their backs turned and while I was playing the original patches on both instruments, for the most part could not tell which of the two synths I was playing. We have been writing and playing synth music since the mid-80's. I will grant you that there are differences in the sound of the two but there were three gear heads in the studio and we could not (with regular accuracy) tell which was which. The photo can be seen on Dave Smith's facebook page.


You can also see the Jupiter 4 trying to elbow his way in there.
pesky Roland, always looking to get in on the action
Old 18th April 2018
  #264
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Gnalvl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie munro View Post
At NO point did he/she say synths, the thread is aimed at VCO comparisons no? Literacy is our friend you are correct, i believe it goes something like this.
Your incoherent babbling has nothing to do with the topic at hand. This post is an objectively false accusation. You literally say that he's blaming VCO's instead of the whole signal path, when his OP literally asks "Is it clocking, pitch control, amps, signal chains? All the above?".

A 45 post exchange isn't necessary because you were already checkmated before you replied.
Old 18th April 2018
  #265
Gear Maniac
 

Neonrider said "Why do old VCOs sound so much better..." not "different." To me his initial representation was non-sense so any response seems fair game.
Old 18th April 2018
  #266
Lives for gear
Remember that what manufacturers call a "VCO" or "DCO" synth MAY not be 100% in line with what YOU think it is

This all goes back to the Akai AX80 supposedly an analog synth "DCO" analog that is...

...turns out......it's 100% digital, the info was outed by someone who knew the design, and went through the entire oscillator system, turns out it's actually an ACDO synth

Analog controlled digital oscillator

CV sent by the keys trigger a digital oscillator, funny even back then people KNEW that there was something off about that synth, this was before the digital vs. analog debate, but people thought it sounded "Cold" and "dead" familiar terms no?

But Akai wanted to say it was analog and who was going to stop them?

Let that be a lesson to you....don't argue with your ears, if they tell you something isn't the same that's because it isn't
Old 18th April 2018
  #267
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PES View Post
Yep. Using DCOs, VCOs with digital modulators, pure analog synths (analog modulators), pure digital synths and samples. All good.
Just listened - love to hear more - also love the idea of "from Train, recorded on a moving train". Obscure places to record in can be a whole new thread...
Old 18th April 2018
  #268
Lives for gear
 
Klonfocius's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWiggly View Post
Anyone made any decent tunes recently?
With old or new VCO's?
Old 18th April 2018
  #269
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
With old or new VCO's?
Don't really mind to be honest - they all sound the same to me...
Old 18th April 2018
  #270
Lives for gear
 
Gnalvl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAnybody View Post
Neonrider said "Why do old VCOs sound so much better..." not "different." To me his initial representation was non-sense so any response seems fair game.
Sorry, disagreeing with someone's personal preferences or even just their phrasing doesn't justify spreading objectively false assertions about what they said.

By that argument if someone makes a thread saying "I hate the DX7", and you like the DX7, it's totally valid to make repeated posts claiming that in the OP they confessed to molesting children.

Nope, sorry - that's not valid. Just because you don't like what someone said doesn't mean you get to completely falsify what they said. If you're going to disagree with someone, address the actual content of their post, not your strawman fantasy of their post content.
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