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Why Don't New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 14th April 2018
  #181
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Arglebargle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxisaxis View Post
Well yeah. This thread is bogus from the outset. Imagine you have friends over. You show them a big chunky ancient thing with wood panelling and cold war era control panel, and ask them to compare the sound with something next to it which is clearly post-digital revolution. You say "hey, listen to this one, now. . . listen to this venerable antique." And you expect to form an objective opinion based on their casual responses? Lol.

I'm not wanting everyone to drop everything and make scientific studies of this stuff, can't imagine what that would be supposed to achieve anyway. But I hate to think about the noobs who read the first page of this thread - those people who have so much to learn about production and musicality without being worried by trivial concerns about their basic tool pallette - and start wondering whether they should be paying thousands for old cr*p which is going to burden them with repair bills for the next five years plus.

I really like gearslutz, and I dig vintage gear as much as the next person, but really this is a very silly thread.
Yeah, I suspect that the friends are getting helped along ala 'Clever Hans'

Clever Hans - Wikipedia


Although in his own way, that was one clever horse.
Old 14th April 2018
  #182
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by enossified View Post
I understand why you wrote that, but I was discussing two things that are orthogonal. What makes something sound good is the design. It may be by careful work or it might be by total accident (like the TB-303).

Using one over the other does not make the sound better by itself. Which is what I meant.
I realized that when I posted, which is why I added 'to some extent' in the first place. However these two things are orthogonal only in the Matrix. In the Real World they are not fully orthogonal. In practice swapping a through-hole component with an SMT component means swapping a component with ever so slightly different characteristics period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enossified View Post
Again, this is true but just because it's through hole or because it's a vintage component does not immediately make the sound better by itself.
No, but it could make it different. SMT components are definitely not inferior to their through-hole counterparts (at least not from an EE's point of view), in fact I would say it's the contrary since many SMT components are probably closer to their idealized models in circuit theory due to their having smaller parasitic values.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enossified View Post
My point was simply that people attribute the sound to things that are not necessarily the reason at all. It's all just armchair engineering and conjecture.
Definitely. Personally I have no idea what it could be that possibly might cause modern clones to slight different to their original, although I will say again that the VC-340 is incredibly close to the VP-330 (going by the YouTube demos, I've never played one in person).
Old 14th April 2018
  #183
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drockfresh's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSM2030 View Post
Even if you have two identical sounding synths where one is vintage and one is new you can be sure there will be people saying the vintage sound way better. I've seen this happen a before were Ive had the luxury to compare myself.
There's so much misinformation an bias going on. I think it's hard to trust anyone on these topics.
There’s something about a new shiny plastic keybed that totally makes you biased about how you hear the sounds. It’s a weird phenomenon. Newititus.
Old 14th April 2018
  #184
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh View Post
There’s something about a new shiny plastic keybed that totally makes you biased about how you hear the sounds. It’s a weird phenomenon. Newititus.
Humans are weird. Some audiophiles claim that reversing the direction of speaker cable makes a difference. I cannot take that seriously since the current is flowing both ways (ie. it's AC, there should not be a DC component).

Holy crap, apparently burning in of speaker cables is a thing among audiophiles (and for some of them the explanation why there's an arrow on some speaker cables:

Quote:
Originally Posted by https://www.whathifi.com/forum/accessories/directional-speaker-cable
The reason that most speaker cables are marked with a directional indicator is not because they work better in one direction. It is because once you start to use a speaker cable in one direction (i.e. burn it in with the signal going in that direction) then it will give best results if you always use it in that direction. The marking is there so that if you disconnect the cable you know which way round to refit it.
directional speaker cable | What Hi-Fi?

All hope is lost for mankind.
Old 14th April 2018
  #185
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daviddever's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOYZ View Post
Humans are weird. Some audiophiles claim that reversing the direction of speaker cable makes a difference. I cannot take that seriously since the current is flowing both ways (ie. it's AC, there should not be a DC component).
Yeah, there's a difference with larger diameter cables–though the conventional thinking is that it has less to do with the conductors and more to do with the process of annealing the insulation to the cable itself, under heat, etc. at the point of manufacture. And it's subtle, but demonstrable, in spite of the fact that it doesn't make any electrical sense at all....

Likewise, there's a notion that overheating a cable for too long while creating a solder joint can negatively affect sound, which would seem to be related somehow.
Old 14th April 2018
  #186
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monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever View Post
Yeah, there's a difference with larger diameter cables–though the conventional thinking is that it has less to do with the conductors and more to do with the process of annealing the insulation to the cable itself, under heat, etc. at the point of manufacture. And it's subtle, but demonstrable, in spite of the fact that it doesn't make any electrical sense at all....
But it's AC. If there is a problem it will always be there in 50% of the waveform cycle, no matter what way you connect the cable.
Old 14th April 2018
  #187
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monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever View Post
And it's subtle, but demonstrable, in spite of the fact that it doesn't make any electrical sense at all....
Do you know of such a demonstration that is not anecdotal?
Old 14th April 2018
  #188
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Praxisaxis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
Do you know of such a demonstration that is not anecdotal?
In all seriousness, moving one's own physical position in the room by a meter or less would make a much more discernible sonic difference.
Old 14th April 2018
  #189
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever View Post
Yeah, there's a difference with larger diameter cables–though the conventional thinking is that it has less to do with the conductors and more to do with the process of annealing the insulation to the cable itself, under heat, etc. at the point of manufacture. And it's subtle, but demonstrable, in spite of the fact that it doesn't make any electrical sense at all....

Likewise, there's a notion that overheating a cable for too long while creating a solder joint can negatively affect sound, which would seem to be related somehow.
Show me a rigorous, properly conducted double blind study and I will start paying attention. Until then I classify this under nonsense, just like homeopathy. And keep in mind that the onus of providing evidence is on those making the claim.
Old 14th April 2018
  #190
PES
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PES's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxisaxis View Post
In all seriousness, moving one's own physical position in the room by a meter or less would make a much more discernible sonic difference.
Even putting a finger behind your ears and pushing slightly forward would make a lot more of a difference. Well, not more, it would make an actual, audible difference. But you don't hear audiophiles talk about the time they took a step to the side or nudged their ears or put a hat on or sat down or stood up. It's always that magical cable they put themselves knee-deep in debt to get, the one that gives deeper bass, fuller mids and clearer highs, all at the same time.
Old 14th April 2018
  #191
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NEXUS-6's Avatar
 

Vintage has all the magic fairy dust but alas all the fairies have died.. It was all the partying back in the day it caught up to them.

Old 14th April 2018
  #192
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daviddever's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TOYZ View Post
Show me a rigorous, properly conducted double blind study and I will start paying attention. Until then I classify this under nonsense, just like homeopathy. And keep in mind that the onus of providing evidence is on those making the claim.
Honestly, I couldn't care less.

One could also assert that differences in the sound of analogue VCOs are measurable, or they aren't.

It's up to you to decide whether to use your ears, a measurement device, or a combination of the two, either or both of which are only as good as the user.
Old 14th April 2018
  #193
Gear Maniac
 

The temperature gradient in the room is likely to have more of an effect than the direction of the speaker cable.

After coming up with the above example out of thin air I figured it would be nice to Google this and see if there's actually research on this and lo and behold, there is:

The influence of wind and temperature gradients on sound propagation, calculated with the two way wave equations

Old 14th April 2018
  #194
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever View Post
Honestly, I couldn't care less.
Confirmation bias, much? But feel free to connect your speaker cable the 'correct' way around, doesn't do anyone any harm after all.
Old 14th April 2018
  #195
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever View Post
and the same bit about oscillators sounding different falls under the same dubious category (or it doesn't).
Definitely, although oscillators sounding different is not quite as far fetched as speaker cables being directional, especially if you also consider other components in a synth such as VCF, VCA, summing mixer etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever View Post
You decide whether to use your ears, a measurement device, or a combination of the two.
Nothing wrong with using your ears, as long as other factors have been removed.
Old 14th April 2018
  #196
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enossified's Avatar
Just wanted folks to know that I actually am in close agreement with Toyz.

What we are discussing as "contradicting myself" is that design choices that are mandated by a particular technology (through hole vs. SMT) cause changes in the sound of a circuit, just as any other deisgn change will cause a change in the sound. I was arguing that SMT does not inherently sound better or worse, but as Toyz pointed out since SMT components are not identical with their through hole equivalents (and not even between mfrs of so-called "equivalent" parts in either technology) the circuit will sound different unless the deisgner carefully compensates for the differences.

Do designers bother? The marketing department will always tell you yes, but in reality not so much. Certainly not in low cost reissues like the MS-20 or Karp Odyssey. In fact, Korg screwed up the enevlope retrigger cicuit in the Karp keyboard, supposedly it was corrected in the desktop version.

Use your ears, don't listen to the expertz on teh interwebz. Before you lay down $$$$$$$ on a vintage piece, make sure you spend some serious time playing it side by side with a reissue or modern equivalent.
Old 14th April 2018
  #197
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daviddever's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by enossified View Post
Do designers bother? The marketing department will always tell you yes, but in reality not so much. Certainly not in low cost reissues like the MS-20 or Karp Odyssey. In fact, Korg screwed up the enevlope retrigger cicuit in the Karp keyboard, supposedly it was corrected in the desktop version.
Given that the 87% keyboard and desktop are identical in size and pitch of controls, it's highly unlikely that this was actually fixed–if so, then it's also possible that later 87% units (if there was such a thing) might also have the same fix. (My guess is that they're identical.)
Old 14th April 2018
  #198
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daviddever's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by enossified View Post
I was arguing that SMT does not inherently sound better or worse, but as Toyz pointed out since SMT components are not identical with their through hole equivalents (and not even between mfrs of so-called "equivalent" parts in either technology) the circuit will sound different unless the deisgner carefully compensates for the differences.
That's not entirely always the case; in some circumstances, only the outer package is different (SOIC vs. DIP ICs); in others, they're quite different in all aspects of manufacturing. Only the manufacturer could identify (if there was any commercial motivation to do so) whether it's the same die or not.
Old 14th April 2018
  #199
Gear Addict
 
Snorktop's Avatar
 

Vintage gear sounds better than modern gear.

Analog sounds better than digital.

Yes, better. Objectively, unequivocally, tested, proven, done. The second statement isn’t even opinion, it is accepted fact that some sacrifices are made in sound quality for the convenience of digital. Nostalgia, looks, feel, has nothing to do with it.

Can you hear the difference in a mix? Of course you can, if you want to and are doing your job right.

That said, for your style of music, setup, whatever, using a vintage synth may well be more bothersome than desirable and bring little if anything to the party. If I did all electronic music, I’d be tempted to be so cool and minimal with my slimbook and little else. As you know in a working studio where time is money, vintage and analog synths most often go by the wayside.

I have no idea technically why vintage synths sound better, I am a musician not an engineer. Some new high-end analog and modular synths don't have the character of a vintage synth, but seem to have all the sound quality plus purity, reliability and control. Character can be added in a less random way. I only occasionally punch a vintage synth for its distinctive, familiar sound, for which there is no substitute.

Seems to me a lot of amateurs and hobbyists here, limited in their experience, trying to act snooty to make themselves feel superior.
Old 14th April 2018
  #200
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NEXUS-6's Avatar
 

Old 14th April 2018
  #201
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Rob Ocelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod Betamax View Post
No single Monotribe sounds like another Monotribe
a)all VCOs
b)all recent
c)fair deviation in Fc and Res

I have 5, so a fairly good cross-section
(about to trade for my 6th)
Which reminds me, I might have to add some 'secret sauce' to Monotribe #6 .
Old 14th April 2018
  #202
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
Vintage gear sounds better than modern gear.

Analog sounds better than digital.

Yes, better. Objectively, unequivocally, tested, proven, done. The second statement isn’t even opinion, it is accepted fact that some sacrifices are made in sound quality for the convenience of digital.
No, it has not been proven, it is not objective, and it is not "done." This is your opinion. You are not alone, but this is not objective fact. There are so many amazing pieces of digital and analog kit available for comparison that this grand-sweeping statement comes off as ridiculous. There are beautiful digital sounds as well as analog. It is a matter of personal preference and desired aesthetics. It is by no means "proven" that what you like is better than what other people like.

Quote:
Seems to me a lot of amateurs and hobbyists here, limited in their experience, trying to act snooty to make themselves feel superior.
hmm
Old 15th April 2018
  #203
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monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEXUS-6 View Post
Vintage has all the magic fairy dust but alas all the fairies have died.. It was all the partying back in the day it caught up to them.

Oh. My. God!
Is that a vintage 1983 police evidence bag?
Old 15th April 2018
  #204
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shreddoggie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arglebargle View Post
Yeah, I suspect that the friends are getting helped along ala 'Clever Hans'

Clever Hans - Wikipedia


Although in his own way, that was one clever horse.
Clever Hans? You must be joking - Mr Ed had him beat by a mile...

Old 15th April 2018
  #205
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Arglebargle's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddoggie View Post
Clever Hans? You must be joking - Mr Ed had him beat by a mile...

Mr. Ed only wins because he's got a better vocoder!
Old 15th April 2018
  #206
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorktop View Post
Vintage gear sounds better than modern gear.

Analog sounds better than digital.

Yes, better. Objectively, unequivocally, tested, proven, done.
Yes, and apple pie tastes better than paella.

Objectively, unequivocally, tested, proven, done.
Old 15th April 2018
  #207
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BassX's Avatar
Maybe people's hearing is not as good nowadays as 40 years ago.
Maybe people's synth skills are not as good as 40 years ago.
Maybe people are used to hearing music with too much highs nowadays.
Maybe people are used to hearing music with too much compression nowadays.
Maybe people nowadays have earbuds in 16 hours a day listening to mp3, hence their hearing is impaired.
Old 15th April 2018
  #208
"Ain't nothing but a maybe"

(Rufus featuring Chaka Khan)
Old 15th April 2018
  #209
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daviddever's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassX View Post
Maybe people's hearing is not as good nowadays as 40 years ago.
Maybe people's synth skills are not as good as 40 years ago.
Maybe people are used to hearing music with too much highs nowadays.
Maybe people are used to hearing music with too much compression nowadays.
Maybe people nowadays have earbuds in 16 hours a day listening to mp3, hence their hearing is impaired.
I've heard this argument made before with respect to audio, but it's just not remotely true; the distortion components may be different, but the underlying physics have not changed, whether one speaks of tubes | transistors, codecs, linear | switching power supplies, et al.
Old 15th April 2018
  #210
I just bought some crayons for my son.
New box.

Then i remembered I had this old box from when I was a kid.

I found it in an old shoe box with some hot wheels cars a star wars cards. It was worn faded and dog eared, some were missing and worn down to stubs.

As soon as I opened it - wow - memories smells old card board just an amazing rush of feelings ... when I opened the new one, it smelled like shrink wrap and hard plastic.

I could probably color the same picture with both, but mine was so inspiring... the look the smell everything ...

The new one was cheap and forgettable.

But ... maybe if my son keeps the new one for 40 years and gives it to his son...

What's this thread about again?
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