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Why Don't New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 26th April 2018
  #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
That’s because you dumb humans limit yourself to 4 dimensional thinking! Get the Rosetta Stone Arrival Language edition!
Humans are suckers...
Old 26th April 2018
  #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W-W-Int View Post
you come along with some really weak strawman arguments about how he's not ignoring the rest of the signal chain by throwing up a question he asks in his post after the rest of his post clearly ignores that signal chain and targets the VCO only in every weak bit he throws out to support his claim.

You're absolutely right, but be careful, the guy you're arguing with, having lost the battle out here in public, is now trolling me in my PM. , and if he denies it, I’ll post a screenshot.

Last edited by Sharp11; 26th April 2018 at 08:45 PM..
Old 26th April 2018
  #543
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

The Op needs a good editor:


Change:

"Why Don't New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs? I don't want to debate *if* they do. That much is obvious."

to

"Person who fervently believes that old VCOs sound better than new VCO's seeks like minded persons to discuss 'why?'" No fans of modern VCOs, need apply.
Old 26th April 2018
  #544
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Analog Rob Lowe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
The Op needs a good editor:


Change:

"Why Don't New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs? I don't want to debate *if* they do. That much is obvious."

to

"Person who fervently believes that old VCOs sound better than new VCO's seeks like minded persons to discuss 'why?'" No fans of modern VCOs, need apply.
And their own dating site/ OldVcosOnly.com
Old 26th April 2018
  #545
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Freeweb View Post
No, not for my ears/soul.
Some months ago, I had a chance here in Berlin at Schneiders Laden to compare side to side a Minimoog reissue with Andreas personal old battered Model D.
No known "soul" property has ever been found to exist. Like it or not, we're pretty much animals who got good at abstract thinking and complex language. So, it's your ears sending signals that are getting processed by a brain. You feel the original hardware is real just like you feel that you have a soul. I feel like my 5 year old takes a full hour to eat breakfast. Let's not confuse feelings with what's actually happening.

That said, the feels are super important to the most complex language humans have come up with. Art. So, of course you are going to pick the tools that "make your soul feel good" even if it's fantasy. Today I'm working with a new hardware instrument. I feel that it sounds better than any similar software instrument. I'm also working with Zebra 2.8, which just came out of beta today. I went down to fix myself some lunch and came back to my studio and just started noodling around on my MIDI controller. I thought, "oh man, this thing does sound so much better than software..." Of course, I'm an idiot. It was Zebra 2.8, as I found when I started to try and tweak the patch on the hardware interface.

Now, if I did a 1:1 run though of my hardware synth and Zebra, I'd most likely find a lot of places where the hardware trounces the software, but I'd also find as many places where the software put the hardware to shame (I can already tell you that modulation sources are one of those places). Even if I found that in all places and ways that all software is better, I would probably decide to keep all my hardware. That's my feelings though, and should not be confused with reality.

One thing I've never seen is a demo where someone goes though a Prophet 5 and 6 systematically and shows how it differs and how they can be made to sound identical, and where they can never sound identical. It's not hard. You just have to make sure you can see your synths on a spectrum analyzer and make sure you're doing things like tuning your filters exactly. I'd also be curious to hear some oscillator demos between vintage Moog modular modules and modern reissues alone. My guess is that none of us could hear a difference.
Old 26th April 2018
  #546
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Gnalvl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
You're absolutely right, but be careful, the guy you're arguing with, having lost the battle out here in public, is now trolling me in my PM. , and if he denies it, I’ll post a screenshot.
I replied to your post via PM because you deliberately to start the debate back up, and then lost your nerve and deleted the post. I'm happy to share a screenshot of that if you feel it's necessary.

And like I said, it's tall words from someone who spent 4 pages disproving arguments I never made and then pretending it was somehow pertinent to me, or of interest to anyone else in the thread.
Old 27th April 2018
  #547
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Snorktop's Avatar
 

YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME SICK!!!!!

Just joking.

But seriously - you do.
Old 27th April 2018
  #548
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
No known "soul" property has ever been found to exist. Like it or not, we're pretty much animals who got good at abstract thinking and complex language. So, it's your ears sending signals that are getting processed by a brain. You feel the original hardware is real just like you feel that you have a soul. I feel like my 5 year old takes a full hour to eat breakfast. Let's not confuse feelings with what's actually happening.

That said, the feels are super important to the most complex language humans have come up with. Art. So, of course you are going to pick the tools that "make your soul feel good" even if it's fantasy. Today I'm working with a new hardware instrument. I feel that it sounds better than any similar software instrument. I'm also working with Zebra 2.8, which just came out of beta today. I went down to fix myself some lunch and came back to my studio and just started noodling around on my MIDI controller. I thought, "oh man, this thing does sound so much better than software..." Of course, I'm an idiot. It was Zebra 2.8, as I found when I started to try and tweak the patch on the hardware interface.

Now, if I did a 1:1 run though of my hardware synth and Zebra, I'd most likely find a lot of places where the hardware trounces the software, but I'd also find as many places where the software put the hardware to shame (I can already tell you that modulation sources are one of those places). Even if I found that in all places and ways that all software is better, I would probably decide to keep all my hardware. That's my feelings though, and should not be confused with reality.

One thing I've never seen is a demo where someone goes though a Prophet 5 and 6 systematically and shows how it differs and how they can be made to sound identical, and where they can never sound identical. It's not hard. You just have to make sure you can see your synths on a spectrum analyzer and make sure you're doing things like tuning your filters exactly. I'd also be curious to hear some oscillator demos between vintage Moog modular modules and modern reissues alone. My guess is that none of us could hear a difference.

Did you check OB-Xa versus OB-6 on Youtube? Should be easy to find, maybe after watching it you can understand then what the OP, me and others are talking about (does not prove it‘s in the VCOs though, but the OB-6 clearly loses in the vintage moving organic brazz vibe department).

OT: Regarding „soul does not exist“, I‘m not forcing anyone to believe anything, but want to note it may be hard to prove a negative and how could you possibly know „nothing like soul has ever been found“ if for example there are tons of reports and books about afterlife experiences, credible E.S.P experiments and what else. You can chose to ignore and/or ridicule all that, fine. But a little boring.

For me, music and art is very much a spiritual experience.

But even if we are not agreeing about this, it is very much connected to evoking feelings and emotions by whatever means work. If something like a VA synth or rompler or modern analog works for you and your intended audience, that’s totally fine for me.
But why can‘t you and others here let this thread move forward as intended?
It seems like it is hitting some nerve.
As if you guys can‘t allow other opinions or tastes to exist and prosper at all.

I agree that ‚better‘ should be rather stated as subjective regarding musical taste, taste of sound,
so it seems the OP has created something like a troll magnet with this.

Found it. I think this is providing some evidence to the OP‘s claim :
YouTube
Old 27th April 2018
  #549
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Too bad the video is comparing entirely different patches so we can't hear any differances in the essences of these two Promethean gifts. It's really too bad. ah, well.
Old 27th April 2018
  #550
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Analog Rob Lowe's Avatar
1 800-old-vcos
Old 27th April 2018
  #551
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Freeweb View Post
Found it. I think this is providing some evidence to the OP‘s claim :
YouTube
It might if the OB-6 was built with the intention of sounding exactly the OB-XA, but of course it wasn't. Not to mention that there's no use made of the OB-6's detune/slop feature in the demo, according to the comments.

For my money the two synth's in the demo are making broadly similar sounds, with one notable difference being the XA seems to have more low end bass to the sound, while the OB-6's sound is more detailed in the mid-range.

As to which sounds "better", I genuinely preferred different synths on different patches, and imagine that would be true of most people in an honest/ blind test.

All that being said I think this particular demo does more to discredit the OP that prove it.
Old 27th April 2018
  #552
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Freeweb View Post
Found it. I think this is providing some evidence to the OP‘s claim :
YouTube
That first OB-Xa pad is pretty easy to replicate with software.
Old 27th April 2018
  #553
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
That first OB-Xa pad is pretty easy to replicate with software.
... and as is clear in the video, has a different filter setting than the OB6 it's being compared to.
Old 27th April 2018
  #554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
... and as is clear in the video, has a different filter setting than the OB6 it's being compared to.
Totally.
Old 27th April 2018
  #555
Gear Head
 

Ok, if you guys can’t hear a difference with the general character or quality of sound between the machines in the video...
we can leave it at that.
For me it‘s very clear what‘s got the vintage vibe and what the modern vibe.





You may say I‘m just a fool, but I‘m not the only one:
„When you connect with an instrument, no matter of what sort, there is an interaction that’s outside of what’s actually going through your fingers. I hesitate to use the word ‘spiritual’, but I’m absolutely sure that there is a consciousness that we connect with.“Bob Moog

Found at SYNTH-WERK website.
Old 27th April 2018
  #556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Freeweb View Post
Ok, if you guys can’t hear a difference with the general character or quality of sound between the machines in the video...
we can leave it at that.
For me it‘s very clear what‘s got the vintage vibe and what the modern vibe.
Of course the Xa sounds better.
It is so obvious that we didn't even feel the need to comment about it.
Old 27th April 2018
  #557
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Totally different patches with very different filter settings. The first patch has the filter opened more on the Xa which makes it sound more exciting. Bogus test entirely
Old 28th April 2018
  #558
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string6theory's Avatar
I didn’t watch the above vid, but in a comparison vid (or two) I did listen to a ways back, it (oddly) seemed the OG OB owner performing the comparison didn’t even know the 6 had a sub oscillator section. Seemed designed to highlight the low end sonics of one at the expense of the other. I’ll leave it to y’all to guess which one.

Old 28th April 2018
  #559
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Freeweb View Post
Did you check OB-Xa versus OB-6 on Youtube? Should be easy to find, maybe after watching it you can understand then what the OP, me and others are talking about (does not prove it‘s in the VCOs though, but the OB-6 clearly loses in the vintage moving organic brazz vibe department).

OT: Regarding „soul does not exist“, I‘m not forcing anyone to believe anything, but want to note it may be hard to prove a negative and how could you possibly know „nothing like soul has ever been found“ if for example there are tons of reports and books about afterlife experiences, credible E.S.P experiments and what else. You can chose to ignore and/or ridicule all that, fine. But a little boring.

For me, music and art is very much a spiritual experience.

But even if we are not agreeing about this, it is very much connected to evoking feelings and emotions by whatever means work. If something like a VA synth or rompler or modern analog works for you and your intended audience, that’s totally fine for me.
But why can‘t you and others here let this thread move forward as intended?
It seems like it is hitting some nerve.
As if you guys can‘t allow other opinions or tastes to exist and prosper at all.

I agree that ‚better‘ should be rather stated as subjective regarding musical taste, taste of sound,
so it seems the OP has created something like a troll magnet with this.

Found it. I think this is providing some evidence to the OP‘s claim :
YouTube
This one?



I feel that there is absolutely zero qualitative differences between those two synths and I’d choose the OB-6 any day of the week over the old synth due to its superior expressive capabilities.
Old 28th April 2018
  #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
This one?



I feel that there is absolutely zero qualitative differences between those two synths and I’d choose the OB-6 any day of the week over the old synth due to its superior expressive capabilities.
People without a soul usually choose the new boring VCO's with no character...
Old 28th April 2018
  #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddoggie View Post
People without a soul usually choose the new boring VCO's with no character...
Hahaha! I love it.

Dead souls ...

The problem with the video here is that the OB6 isn’t as loud and has very different filter settings
Old 28th April 2018
  #562
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddoggie View Post
People without a soul usually choose the new boring VCO's with no character...
Only children and the ignorant believe in magical things like the existence of a soul. I prefer to marvel at what is, and not what is imagined, unless what I'm marveling at is my imagination, which is OK, but not reality and easily transferable among humans.
Old 28th April 2018
  #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Only children and the ignorant believe in magical things like the existence of a soul. I prefer to marvel at what is, and not what is imagined, unless what I'm marveling at is my imagination, which is OK, but not reality and easily transferable among humans.
ONE problem with that statement(there are more), is it's assuming knowledge that doesn't exist. How do you know that things like soul and imagination aren't real? I'd love to see some evidence for that.

I don't believe in God, but I don't pretend to have proof that he doesn't exist. I believe I have some strong evidence however, supporting that IF he exists, he has to be a complete asshole.
Old 28th April 2018
  #564
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shreddoggie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Only children and the ignorant believe in magical things like the existence of a soul. I prefer to marvel at what is, and not what is imagined, unless what I'm marveling at is my imagination, which is OK, but not reality and easily transferable among humans.
Hahaha dude - I am just heckling you.

As far as souls are concerned - ignorant people believe they exist and ignorant people believe they don't exist. Smart people know that we actually have no idea.

Some like them in a box, others like it with a fox. Some need one to relieve the pain, others finally found theirs in Spain. I would not use one in a tree, but one comes in handy when I ski. Church and science, fox and box and ski and tree or pain in Spain - I prefer mine on a train:

Old 28th April 2018
  #565
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by HUBA View Post
ONE problem with that statement(there are more), is it's assuming knowledge that doesn't exist. How do you know that things like soul and imagination aren't real? I'd love to see some evidence for that.

I don't believe in God, but I don't pretend to have proof that he doesn't exist. I believe I have some strong evidence however, supporting that IF he exists, he has to be a complete asshole.
There's plenty of evidence that a soul probably doesn't exist. Maybe not enough to be 100% sure, but I'll take it. If they did, how could a head injury change a person's personality and cognition so drastically? Isn't it clear that we just imagine such a thing exists because the idea that we're just meat robots that eventually break down and turn off forever is a mother f'n unpleasant thought.
Old 28th April 2018
  #566
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Guest
You ever touched a dead body? It’s got no soul. Something was there that isn’t anymore. It’s a profound change. Hard to describe. But when you experience it, you know something has departed.

We exist within an isolated thermo-dynamic system. It can’t just “disappear”.

Only change form. Even in a black hole it still IS.
Old 28th April 2018
  #567
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddoggie View Post
Hahaha dude - I am just heckling you.

As far as souls are concerned - ignorant people believe they exist and ignorant people believe they don't exist. Smart people know that we actually have no idea.

Some like them in a box, others like it with a fox. Some need one to relieve the pain, others finally found theirs in Spain. I would not use one in a tree, but one comes in handy when I ski. Church and science, fox and box and ski and tree or pain in Spain - I prefer mine on a train:

Back at you, but as a Pastafarian, I can assure you that there’s no soul, it’s just a red meat sauce that holds the universe together under the benevolent noodley appendage of the great Flying Spaghetti Monster. Do you have proof that that isn’t true?
Old 28th April 2018
  #568
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shreddoggie's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Back at you, but as a Pastafarian, I can assure you that there’s no soul, it’s just a red meat sauce that holds the universe together under the benevolent noodley appendage of the great Flying Spaghetti Monster. Do you have proof that that isn’t true?
Thanks for your assurance Dr Science. Please submit the evidence that this is true so I can get back to dancing to Jungle Boogie.
Old 28th April 2018
  #569
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
You ever touched a dead body? It’s got no soul. Something was there that isn’t anymore. It’s a profound change. Hard to describe. But when you experience it, you know something has departed.

We exist within an isolated thermo-dynamic system. It can’t just “disappear”.

Only change form. Even in a black hole it still IS.
Uh, the thing that isn’t there any more is called life, but it’s more of an adjective than a thing. Death is something that happens when our brains stop getting what they need from other organs in the body. What you’re saying is that my car’s soul departs when it’s totally out of charge. Trust me, humans (and all life) are just organic machines designed to get their genetic material into the next generation. We just happen to be oddly formed in such a way that we’ve got the ability to be aware of that at the same time we don’t have the ability to directly perceive how our cognition works.

I never touched a dead human other than my grandmother because I was forced by adults to kiss her as she lay in her casket. She wasn’t missing a soul, but her brain was missing oxygen and other stuff supplied by blood that her heart was crappy at pumping. (Or had become crappy at it) I held my cat Mewberta as our vet put her to sleep. Was her soul forced out of her little body, or did some crazy amount of sedative stop her heart from supplying blood to her brain? Same with my dog Lucy. Or do animals other than humans not have souls? How complicated does a lifeform have to get before it gets a soul?

Anyway, go ahead and put things that are beyond our ability to comprehend as “god” or “soul,” but it seems so childish to me. Even my 4 year old was smart enough to say, “Hey daddy, why are we donating my old toys to kids who are poor? Won’t they get new toys from Santa too?” I had no answer to that. (There isn’t one) I just told her that “Santa” is what we call the feeling of being generous and nice to each other. She seemed to be OK with that, but she still thinks it’s a fat dude with a beard because that’s fun and she’s a kid.

So, maybe you think that modern VCOs are missing a “soul” or some property that makes them “alive.” That’s all poetry. My guess is that people tend to like what they discovered when their hormones are going bat-sh!t crazy and will always like those things because of nostalgia. I miss my ability to ejaculate 9 times a day too, but not enough to spend money on a Jupiter 8.
Old 28th April 2018
  #570
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shreddoggie View Post
Thanks for your assurance Dr Science. Please submit the evidence that this is true so I can get back to dancing to Jungle Boogie.
If it were true, we’d all come up with the same religion and everyone would be on board with it. Instead, everyone just makes up something that seems fun to believe and the tribe goes with it. Am I really supposed to spend time disproving every single religion’s ideas about reality? How can I when I’m so busy telling people that I don’t know that their ideas about vintage synths are silly?
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