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Why Don't New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 25th April 2018
  #511
Gear Maniac
 

I have found an answer: Hoffman, Singh and Prakash, “The interface theory of perception” claims that biological evolution hides the truth from living organisms. So what appears to be happening is that those that have grown up with "the old VCO's" can hear "the old VCO sound" while those who have evloved since have that truth hidden from them.

Well I tried...
Old 25th April 2018
  #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HUBA View Post
Wow, you got me there. How can I argue against such striking logic? Reminds me, I'm out of beer.
People are paying 30 to 60 grand for old Camaros, Challengers, and Mustangs ... do you believe those cars are better made, handle and brake as well and are as safe as today’s versions? Or do you think nostalgia and exclusivity are at play?
Old 25th April 2018
  #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bach666 View Post
Maybe, I was totally wrong about this being a stupid thread. Maybe, in actuality, this is the single greatest thread ever created in the history of Gearslutz.
I tend to agree - this thread has it all:

old vs new
analog vs digital
smd vs through hole
spy vs spy
sense and nonsense
dissing and praising
claims and refutals
psychology and physics
fairy dust and engineering
analysis and obfuscation
entertainment and boredom
humour and anger
saints and sinners
memes and misery
Bach and Mozart
pictures and videos
time travel and name dropping

What more could you possibly ask for
Old 25th April 2018
  #514
Gear Maniac
 

Well i doubt it will be the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
I tend to agree - this thread has it all:

old vs new
analog vs digital
smd vs through hole
spy vs spy
sense and nonsense
dissing and praising
claims and refutals
psychology and physics
fairy dust and engineering
analysis and obfuscation
entertainment and boredom
humour and anger
saints and sinners
memes and misery
Bach and Mozart
pictures and videos
time travel and name dropping

What more can you possibly ask for
Old 25th April 2018
  #515
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j3rk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
What more could you possibly ask for
A six demon bag.
Old 25th April 2018
  #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
People are paying 30 to 60 grand for old Camaros, Challengers, and Mustangs ... do you believe those cars are better made, handle and brake as well and are as safe as today’s versions?
No I don't

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Or do you think nostalgia and exclusivity are at play?
I certainly do.

There's a difference however in paying a grand for an SH-101 and 20 grand or whatever they are now, for a jupiter 8. My comment to trashman had to do with his drunken answer to me.

Nostalgia and exclusivity can play a role for sure whith people getting vintage synths, but it's not the whole story. Many old synths sound different in a pleasing way to many musicians. Why is that such a hard swallow? Why the need to feel superior to those that choose such tools and paint them as misguided dreamers and fundamentalists to get your weak points across? What do these people take away from your life by having a passion that you don't share?
Old 25th April 2018
  #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnalvl View Post
Exactly, the thread title is "Why don't new VCOs sound as good as old VCOs", not "Why are new VCOs worsethan old VCOs".

The thread title isn't stating that new VCOs are worse, it's stating that they sound worse, which implies that anything in the signal path could be causing a reduction in the VCOs' sound quality.

This implication is further illustrated in the content of the post, when he outright asks what else in the signal path could be impacting the sound.



So what? None of that has anything to do with ignoring the signal path in favor of VCOs. If anything, the fact that he criticizes new DCO synths further shows that he's addressing the shared signal path elements of new synths rather than the oscillators themselves.

People can argue with him because they don't agree new VCOs sound worse, or they don't agree that the Deepmind sounds bad, or they don't agree with his subjective "testing methods"... but it's a completely false premise to say he didn't address the rest of the signal path, when it's an objective fact that he did this from his OP.

And if we're being honest, it's obvious that most detractors came up with their "didn't consider the signal path" strawman just based on the thread title, without even reading the content of the post. They're not honestly addressing the discussion, they're just reacting to the OP's abrasive tone, because the they're offended by the insinuation that new analogs might not sound as good.

But sorry, this a thread about synths, not whether or not you like neonrider. If you don't like neonrider, go make a thread about him in the off topic forum, or PM him to his face. Don't pollute a synth discussion with completely false strawmen because you can't even figure out how to argue the actual points you disagree on.
yo kettle, black is defiantely your color this season. you look so sharp in it...

your calling people out on strawman arguments and that they can't argue the point so i'll spell it out for you in case you missed it

VCO means voltage controlled oscillator not synth.
it doesn't matter what the op asked as a question as to what makes a difference because;
a) he ignores his own question and just continues on about the VCO only
b) throws anecdotal evidence up as support for his claims and basically asks why VCO old vs. new is better

you come along with some really weak strawman arguments about how he's not ignoring the rest of the signal chain by throwing up a question he asks in his post after the rest of his post clearly ignores that signal chain and targets the VCO only in every weak bit he throws out to support his claim.


I'm going to say right now I really don't think you knew the difference between a VCO and a complete synth until I just spelled it out to you, based on your arguments in support of the OP and weak analogies so far. your understanding of the discussion seems limited and you keep saying strawman argument when you are the one throwing out strawman arguments in a discussion you don't seem to grasp the nuances of
Old 25th April 2018
  #518
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Q

Quote:
Originally Posted by W-W-Int View Post
a) he ignores his own question and just continues on about the VCO only
b) throws anecdotal evidence up as support for his claims and basically asks why VCO old vs. new is better
Congrats on making a hilariously irrelevant non-argument. Do you even know what you're trying to argue?

1) There is no rule anywhere that requires that someone answer their own question, or elaborate on said question, in order to prove that said question was asked

2) The entire point of asking a question is to receive answers from other people, and there is no requirement that said answers take any specific form (subjective, objective, anecdotal, theoretical, scientifically proven, or otherwise)

As such, it's an objective fact that the OP addressed the possibility of interference from the rest of the signal path regardless of how many words he devoted to the subject or what kind of evidence is involved.

Once again, it appears that you're so butthurt over Neonrider making subjective claims you disagree with, that you feel that ANY criticism of him is valid even if it's not true. Sorry, that's not how the truth works.

If someone shoplifts from your store, that doesn't mean you get to convict them for setting your house on fire, when they've never been a mile from your house. When your case gets throw out of court, that's not the judge making a "strawman", that's down to your own stupidity for charging your opponent for the wrong crime.

Come back when you're not confused about what point you're trying to prove.
Old 25th April 2018
  #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HUBA View Post
Nostalgia and exclusivity can play a role for sure whith people getting vintage synths, but it's not the whole story. Many old synths sound different in a pleasing way to many musicians. Why is that such a hard swallow?
Positing a personal preference for aging components as bygone engineering superiority is where this all falls off the rails. I have no problems with one's preference, but the false justification is just freakin' daft.
Old 25th April 2018
  #520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever View Post
Positing a personal preference for aging components as bygone engineering superiority is where this all falls off the rails. I have no problems with one's preference, but the false justification is just freakin' daft.
If the aging of components is a big factor in why certain old synths sound the way they do, then how do you explain that the new Model D from both Moog and Behringer sound practically indiscernible from 40 year old originals?
Old 25th April 2018
  #521
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different does not absolutely equal better.
Old 26th April 2018
  #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j3rk View Post
I specifically like how the new VCO's wave can occupy two points in time simultaneously!
That’s because you dumb humans limit yourself to 4 dimensional thinking! Get the Rosetta Stone Arrival Language edition!
Old 26th April 2018
  #523
Deleted User
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod Betamax View Post
different does not absolutely equal better.
This “Différance“ is the crises in western thought that is leading to catastrophe.
Old 26th April 2018
  #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
This “Différance“ is the crises in western thought that is leading to catastrophe.
What do you mean by that?
Old 26th April 2018
  #525
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So, it is possible this may well be a first-world construct of unimportant hand-flailing?
Also, it was outside the purview of the OPs "concern", but nothing was mentioned in regards to how much better modern VCOs can lock to tune thermally.
My long gone Moog Prodigy (sold circa 1991) was aweful at keeping tune, regardless of the alleged fairy-dust these antiquities may have possessed.
At 54 years young, and 40 years into synths, I will not be a revisionist and pretend that there was some "magic" in the air that imparted wizardry to the music.



Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
This “Différance“ is the crises in western thought that is leading to catastrophe.
Old 26th April 2018
  #526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HUBA View Post
the new Model D from both Moog and Behringer sound practically indiscernible from 40 year old originals?
I don't agree with that assertion, in varying degrees; while the Model B sounds good, it's not blindly equivalent to a vintage Minimoog. That doesn't make it bad value for money, though–I'd take it over a vintage Roland SH-3 in the creamy ladder-filter department.

And the Moog reissue, while pretty close (-ish?) to a recently-serviced, mint-ish original, would likely not sound the same as an unserviced-but-functional original (which might be preferred to a recently-serviced one, depending on your perspective).

There are far too many variables to narrow it down to one factor (and that's before you start to consider unit-to-unit variation).
Old 26th April 2018
  #527
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HUBA View Post
If the aging of components is a big factor in why certain old synths sound the way they do, then how do you explain that the new Model D from both Moog and Behringer sound practically indiscernible from 40 year old originals?
No, not for my ears/soul.
Some months ago, I had a chance here in Berlin at Schneiders Laden to compare side to side a Minimoog reissue with Andreas personal old battered Model D.

First I played around on the reissue with headphones, quite some time, thinking, yes! this is how a good synth should sound.

Then came my surprise.
I turned to the old machine and after a few more minutes, I had tears in my eyes. Oh my god. Sorry, there was so much more of organic soul-sound with this!
And whatever the reason, I am quite sure it is in the sound, especially the sound evolution when you operate the controls.

I may be extra sensitive because the moog sound was the thing that brought up my interest in electronic music in the early 70s, starting with „Switched on Bach“. I loved it.

I use to say, well, it may „sound“ nearly identical, but it *feels* radically different- better.

(And if I‘m just a fool with this, so be it. If it still inspires me for great music, all is well.)


Marcus
Old 26th April 2018
  #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever View Post
I don't agree with that assertion, in varying degrees; while the Model B sounds good, it's not blindly equivalent to a vintage Minimoog. That doesn't make it bad value for money, though–I'd take it over a vintage Roland SH-3 in the creamy ladder-filter department.

And the Moog reissue, while pretty close (-ish?) to a recently-serviced, mint-ish original, would likely not sound the same as an unserviced-but-functional original (which might be preferred to a recently-serviced one, depending on your perspective).

There are far too many variables to narrow it down to one factor (and that's before you start to consider unit-to-unit variation).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Freeweb View Post
No, not for my ears/soul.
Some months ago, I had the chance here in Berlin at Schneiders Laden to compare side to side a Minimoog reissue with Andreas personal old battered Model D.

First I played around on the reissue with headphones, quite some time, thinking, yes, this this is how a synth should sound.

Then came a surprise.
I turned to the old machine and after a few more minutes, I had tears in my eyes. Sorry, so much more organic soul-sound with this!
And whatever the reason, I am quite sure it is in the sound and the sound evolution when you operate the controls.

I may be extra sensitive because the moog sound was the thing that brought up my interest in electronic music in the early 70s, starting with „Switched on Bach“. I loved it.

I use to say, well, it may „sound“ nearly identical, but it *feels* radically different- better.

(And if I‘m just a fool with this, so be it. If it still inspires me for great music, all is well.)


Marcus
Luckily for my wallet I don't have your ears. This is a patch by patch comparison to an original:

Old 26th April 2018
  #529
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HUBA View Post
Luckily for my wallet I don't have your ears. This is a patch by patch comparison to an original:

Probably just the scratches and a missing switch made this happen to me.
Old 26th April 2018
  #530
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Freeweb View Post
Probably just the scratches and a missing switch made this happen to me.
Probably true, but it also may have been a really nice sounding example, who knows??? Anecdotal accounts are what they are.
Old 26th April 2018
  #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HUBA View Post
What do you mean by that?
In a non-essentialist sense. It’s a crisis. In the way fakebook, giggity, twizzler are the artifacts. You know?
What is the differance?
Old 26th April 2018
  #532
Deleted User
Guest
I just brought a Boomstar 4075 into the studio tonight and a Portico 5017. Boomstar is going back. 5017 is some sort of jewel on the crown of Prometheus.

My point being: groupthink is just groupthink. The 5017 is supposed to boring .. not as exciting as the mic preamp du jour ... who knows what it is today. The Boomstar line was said to be the voice of God. Well, I have both sitting here and whilst the Boomstar definitely doesn't stink, it's not as exciting as the Pulse II right next to it. But it has more knobs. heh

And the Portico 5017! Wow. Total Nouveau Analogique and just beautiful. I like it a lot more than than the older mic preamps I've had in here.

Last edited by Deleted User; 26th April 2018 at 02:18 PM..
Old 26th April 2018
  #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
This “Différance“ is the crises in western thought that is leading to catastrophe.
Oh please..

I don't believe this is about some grand ideals, sorry. There's a pattern around here, it seems to come down to the fact that some people have a very, very hard time when what they use/own/have isn't being mentioned as 'the best of all time' by some others, and so they start bombing the threads.

In any case, people make distinctions, like sour/sweet, noisy/clean, day/night, that's what it's like being human. It makes me ill how people try to censor other people under the guise of some high-brow philosophy.

Finally, how about speaking from experience instead? Just sell one of your new synths and buy an old one instead if it means so much to you, prove yourself right.

Last edited by GeorgeHayduke; 26th April 2018 at 11:09 AM..
Old 26th April 2018
  #534
Lives for gear
I would like to think this from a technical perspective. Electronic components have a failure rate of a bathtub curve. The first electronic components that go bad are probably electrolytical capacitors. They deteriorate first and if they go bad in a power supply they will affect all the rest of the circuit. What you may hear in a vintage instrument are most probably tuning inconsistencies and distortion.

I wonder if you could emulate the artifacts and inconsistencies of a vintage Moog by ageing the components of a Behringer D by baking the pcboard in an oven at 50 degrees celcius for a week or so?
Old 26th April 2018
  #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke View Post
Oh please..

I don't believe this is about some grand ideals, sorry. There's a pattern around here, it seems to come down to the fact that some people have a very, very hard time when what they use/own/have isn't being mentioned as 'the best of all time' by some others, and so they start bombing the threads.

In any case, people make distinctions, like sour/sweet, noisy/clean, day/night, that's what it's like being human. It makes me ill how people try to censor other people under the guise of some high-brow philosophy.

Finally, how about speaking from experience instead? Just sell one of your new synths and buy an old one instead if it means so much to you, prove yourself right.
I sold the old synths, so that I could buy the newer ones. The old ones were frustrating.

I use samplers a lot, too. This probably upsets you, as well. Haha Digital recordings posing as synths!

High brow philosophy? So using ideas to help express myself is off limits, too? Derrida’s concept of “Differance” is apt in characterizing and critiquing the propsition that all old synths have magic fairy dust in the oscillators.

This is precisely the phenomenological “essentialism” Derrida was critiquing. I’m not a huge fan of Derrida or any of the deconstructionist movement, but I did see an opportunity.

Derrida was apt in pointing out the subjectivity behind phenomenological assertions of essence.

In that sense, I want proof: not feelings.

Feelings and belief aren’t hard cold truth, which is what is being proposed here: fairy dust truth.

"Differance" mocks this. And, oddly, we are writing (text) about sound (voicing), which is what the “joke” of saying “Differance” was in the first place.

No amount of bullying or Gaslighting will make your old clunkers sound better or be more productive than my collection of Nouveau Classiques haha

Last edited by Deleted User; 26th April 2018 at 02:19 PM..
Old 26th April 2018
  #536
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Probably true, but it also may have been a really nice sounding example, who knows??? Anecdotal accounts are what they are.
I was joking. No way.
Old 26th April 2018
  #537
Gear Head
 

If the machines age, that makes them somewhat more like... us? Maybe that‘s what I found so pleasing.

A sound like wine from a bottle out of a shipwreck found at the bottom of the ocean.

Otoh, it reminded me at the sounds from the (new then) Moog Modular on Walter Carlos famous record. Beloved memories from my childhood.
The reissue to a (critical) much lesser extent.
Old 26th April 2018
  #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neonrider View Post
I don't want to debate *if* they do. That much is obvious. Every non musician I have over to my house I do a little test with. Play a key on a new VCO synth then play a key on a classic.


Why do old VCOs sound so much better.Oscillator fascism?
Duude you need a epic rap battle!


Old 26th April 2018
  #539
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The accidental genius I detect in the OP is that he/she/it has somehow thrown the whole, 20 year old "old is better than new" non-discussion into one thread/bag/folder where it can all be easily ignored.

Carry on! My SH-32 is better than your Original Minimoog! Rah!

Last edited by realtrance; 26th April 2018 at 07:25 PM..
Old 26th April 2018
  #540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post

High brow philosophy? So using ideas to help express myself is off limits, too? Derrida’s concept of “Differance” is apt in characterizing and critiquing the propsition that all old synths have magic fairy dust in the oscillators.
Logic and critical thinking seems that way to some people
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