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Why Don't New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 24th April 2018
  #481
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Mr Knoch's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolk martin View Post
Ahh, but non-groupthink is the groupthink here, and contrarianism is what we agree on
Reminds me of this comic.

Old 24th April 2018
  #482
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever View Post


I see very little overlap here between the (massive) hand-cranked, machine-wound transformers (see Triad Historical Archive) of the Fairchild compressors**, and the purpose-built DIP IC semiconductors used throughout a typical vintage analogue synthesizer, say, an OB-XA. I've used both, but they're generations apart in terms of engineering.

Furthermore, lighter weight and power consumption / dissipation are as much a practical consideration for military purposes as overbuilt reliability, so I wouldn't lazily dismiss optimization of either factor as a crass, cost-saving measure. Ask anyone who served in the deserts of the Middle East which they'd prefer.

And as much as I understand the behavior of both switching and linear power supplies, there's no doubt that there are venues out there* whose wide power and voltage swings favor switching supplies on the basis of reliability–so you'll never get a chance to compare some modern devices (designed with these constraints in mind) with their practical linear-supply equivalents, on the basis of this very practical consideration alone (e.g., a DSI OB-6 with a linear supply, or an original OB-X with a switching one).

* - in places that lacked basic services as recently as three decades ago.

** - from the Triad catalog:



Equals reduced copper - so even these companies were looking at cost / weight / volume optimizations over three generations ago.
Just to touch base with you, I'm an audio engineer, and an electrical engineer, who is moving on to Audiology. Who was also born with the ability to 'see' sound(synthesia).

The overlap I was speaking of, is not equipment based. It was on the state of mind of the people who designed the equipment of the 50-80's era or the people who taught them how to design. It's not the materials that make the equipment, it's the hands and the mind that built them. These racks were not machine made like today's equipment, they were hand made.

These ppl just came out of the war of all wars, in 5000 years.

They ARE engineers, to the fullest(BTW I had 2 grandfathers in the world wars).

You mention generations apart, this statement is inferring that mankind makes progress every generation, which is far from the truth.

More than often we step back, on a subsequent generation(s). We just don't find out until later.

More power = higher resolution of the colombs travelling through the connections. Which basically means more electrons are moving through the equipment, which equates a higher resolution of the sound signal.

YouTube

more electrons = higher resolution
which means a compressor can react quicker and more effieciently
especially an opto compressor, not that opto is the best

You want higher power, not lower...

YouTube

This is how I understand it, ... but then again I could be TOTALLY wrong. I'm just working to figure it out, like you are. As I am an audiophile.


Also, i feel the term 'over built reliability' is an oxymoron.

Great dialog though.

Like I said, I could be totally wrong...which is a good thing! as the answer is near!
Old 25th April 2018
  #483
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by synthesia1073 View Post
YouTube

more electrons = higher resolution
which means a compressor can react quicker and more effieciently
especially an opto compressor, not that opto is the best

You want higher power, not lower...
The video you posted is very good, but doesn't support your position, at all.

It clearly shows electrons flowing from a negative to a positive source, the importance of a closed circuit and conductors vs insulators, and how one form of energy, the electron, is changed to heat, which produces the light.

You made quite a jump there... not sure how or why you did.

Also, the P5, Moog, Arp, Buchla, etc. had nothing to do with military electronics, but everything to do with circuits and parts available of the day. In the 40's, the military used what was around - mostly stuff from the 30's - and made it reliable for field use. Outside of that, synths , guitar amps, and other audio electronics were mostly sourced from radio circuits reimagined for Hi Fi.

Today's electronics are far more powerful, reliable, easier to build more cheaply, run cooler and fit in smaller spaces - if you could've built a Prophet 12 module in the 50's, it'd have to have taken up all the space in a two car garage
Old 25th April 2018
  #484
Gear Maniac
 

guys.

you don't need to be so reductive. there's no need for the theatrical outrage. it's not as if this argument (why is old stuff better?) isn't made in nearly every industry, whether it's film, cars, or even jeans. so it's really uninteresting to pretend you're oh so shocked, shocked at hearing it.

now. when i say "new" vs "old" vco's, obviously i'm generalizing.

as i am when i say "everyone that walks into my place doesn't like the sound of new synths". sure, of course there are a few people who like that tinny, shrill DSI sound--but not many, and not often.

so. i'm not saying "ALL new vco's are bad!" and "ALL old ones are good!", as if there is some kind of ancient alchemists stone in circuitry forged from pre 1985 silicon. therefore, i'm not looking for some kind of esoteric mystical explanation, either.

i'm just noting a trend, which there is plenty of evidence of.

let's do a counterexample to make it clear.

behringer's "d" is a new vco. but it sounds pretty good. good enough that's caused minimoog prices to implode. they're down to what 2500ish? that's a huge impact, a 30% effect. so quite obviously what we can all hear--that it's a decent mini knockoff, sure there are missing bits, but on the whole it's not bad--is reflected in the value.

now that's eminently NOT true for most other new VCO synths. the prophet 6 hasn't driven 5, 10, whatever prices down. the ob-6 hasn't driven 8, Xa, etc prices down. the deep mind hasn't driven juno prices down. they just keep going up--stratospherically.

it's pretty obvious that very few people consider old and new substitutes--again, in general. hence, in general, old vco's have reached astronomical prices. to afford even a polysix--the most basic vco poly i can think of--is more than a used prophet 6, which is probably a vastly superior synth in every way BUT possibly tone. do you see what i'm getting at here? don't you think that's funny? strange? striking?

now. market valuation is of course a deeply imperfect tool. but it tells us something. many people hear that there is a difference between new and old, generally--no, not specifically, in every single case. but enough to demonstrate a trend.

the question is why. i think many good answers have been raised in this thread.

let me give you another example. i have an omega 8. it gets so, so close to being a truly great synth. really painfully close. unlike on DSI synths, you can turn perma-tune off, totally. the second you do--magic--it sounds alive, it breathes, it unclenches. but something it still missing. the levels going into the filter are just not hot enough to get the smush, the saturation, the cream, of the synths that it is quite obviously straining to replicate the sound of. i can *almost* make it sound like an ob, but for that problem. but i can't fix that problem. it's hardwired into the synth. and no one noticed--no one seemed to care for many years.

so i think you guys do yourselves a disservice when you try to reduce what is obviously real--not just to me, but to the music marketplace in general--to some kind of mystical quest, joke, or fanaticism. you're all on the quest for the perfect sound. audiophile mysticism is far from the point ("magical components, dude! put some platinum on that turntable!"). on that we agree: it doesn't help anyone.

i understand that we are at odds philosophically--this forum is predicated on endless consumption of whatever's new, no matter how drab it is, and i am suggesting essentially the opposite--i wonder if that isn't the problem to begin with.

but don't mind me, carry on.
Old 25th April 2018
  #485
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Analog Rob Lowe's Avatar
An omega 8, wow there’s your pantys not the old ****
Old 25th April 2018
  #486
Deleted User
Guest
Smell is the new sound, when it comes to vcos. I just don't want to experience vcos, I have to smell them as well!! Everything else is so first quarter 2018. Gonna do a rock anthem called come on smell the noise!!
Old 25th April 2018
  #487
Deleted User
Guest
Aaaah ... ok. You have a problem with DSI.

Efficient market theory has been debunked. The 2007-2008 crisis utterly destroyed that. Bitcoin, like Tulips, like Vintage gear fetch whatever Fakebook billionaires decide. Just like original Atari video game sets. Or original Star Wars gear Etc

Prices go up for antique cars and guns and furniture and art etc because as wealth increases, so does the desire for baubles.

It’s not like a Schiele is fetching more at the auction house because he’s so much “better” than Kline.

Bitcoin was $20,000 and then $5,000 and now $10,000.

A house in San Francisco cost 10x more than the same house in Ohio.

The difference in price between a Moog D and Behringer D is far greater than the Prophet 5 and 6. It’s a far far far easier substitute at $300. That’s an indifference curve.

If Behringer sold it for $2000 that example would be out the window.

If DSI took a zero off their price that would be the end of bitcoin.

Talking about market prices tells us nothing. Unless you wanna buy some Netscape at $100 a share.

I would sell a 909, 808 and 303 immediately because I don’t find the sounds interesting. I’ll take a Roland R8M with an API 2500 and Pulse 2 with a stereo NEVE channel any day over these “vintage” units.

Vintage Neve 1073s sell for a bazillion dollars. Suckers. Lol
Old 25th April 2018
  #488
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string6theory's Avatar
So, it’s really used synth prices on eBay that, along with some random panty dropping, B’s D knockoff and some equally nebulous “causal” linkage, leads to (almost?) all vintage VCO synths sounding “better” than (almost?) all modern ones?

Silly premise, equally silly conclusion and very silly thread.


Awe, someone doesn’t like the sound of DSI’s Prophet-6 and OB-6. Thinks they sound tinny. Awe. :-(




Monezone fodder.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neonrider View Post
... sure, of course there are a few people who like that tinny, shrill DSI sound--but not many, and not often.


...
Old 25th April 2018
  #489
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I recently tried Prophet 6 versus Rev2 and actually liked the Rev2 more. It surely sounds awful when you turn the filter completely open but when you turn it down a little bit it has a really nice, biting sound. Maybe I'm a DCO fanboy?
Old 25th April 2018
  #490
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24dB's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAnybody View Post
Poor Socrates did not fare too well. Suppose thats the price to pay
Notably his famous last words, "I drank what?"
Old 25th April 2018
  #491
Deleted User
Guest
Since it can't be taken seriously, it allows me and others to have word fun!
Some of Monty Python's premises were really silly.

Now go change your armour!


Quote:
Originally Posted by string6theory View Post

Silly premise, equally silly conclusion and very silly thread.




Monezone fodder.
Old 25th April 2018
  #492
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monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by synthesia1073 View Post
More than often we step back, on a subsequent generation(s). We just don't find out until later.
Are you suggesting we haven't made any progress in the past 80 or so years?
Let me introduce you to a friend.
Synthesia1073, meet Transistor.
Transistor, meet Synthesia1073.


Quote:
More power = higher resolution of the colombs travelling through the connections. Which basically means more electrons are moving through the equipment, which equates a higher resolution of the sound signal.
So how can we have 24 bits converters (including the accompanying super low noise floors) that work at super low power?

And how many electrons are you talking about anyway? Because i can tell you that there are a hell of a lot of electrons in a thin bit of wire.
1 Coulomb is in the range of 10^18 electron charges.
That's about 1.000.000.000.000.000.000 electrons per Coulomb.
That's the charge moved in 1 second at 1 Ampere.
Now think of miliamperes, even microamperes.
That still leaves us with 1.000.000.000.000 electrons per second.
Which seems to be more than enough for audio fidelity.

Quote:
more electrons = higher resolution
which means a compressor can react quicker and more effieciently
especially an opto compressor, not that opto is the best
This is nonsense.
The reaction time is a function of the power potential (voltage) and the resistance.
If your device (say, the compressor) has a high resistance, you will need lots of power to make it work.
But if the device is designed with low resistance then you can do with much less power and thus need less voltage and amperage.

Quote:
You want higher power, not lower...
Nope. You want appropriate power. Which generally means enough power to feed the device at all time.
Old 25th April 2018
  #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
Efficient market theory has been debunked. The 2007-2008 crisis utterly destroyed that. Bitcoin, like Tulips, like Vintage gear fetch whatever Fakebook billionaires decide. Just like original Atari video game sets. Or original Star Wars gear Etc

Prices go up for antique cars and guns and furniture and art etc because as wealth increases, so does the desire for baubles.

It’s not like a Schiele is fetching more at the auction house because he’s so much “better” than Kline.

Bitcoin was $20,000 and then $5,000 and now $10,000.

A house in San Francisco cost 10x more than the same house in Ohio.
Yeah vintage synth prices are, like everything else, just hype and meaningless fluctuations based on nothing but fashion and thin air. After all, there's nothing about their sound that could have anything to do with it. And if someone is willing to pay 20.000$ for a jupiter 8, it means people paying 1000$ for an SH-101 can be thrown in the same category of stupidity because both are believing in some vintage tone unicorn. The world is nothing but a big ignorance machine producing ignorance. That fluctuates. Lucky for you that you're smart enough to see through it all

Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
I would sell a 909, 808 and 303 immediately because I don’t find the sounds interesting.
I would too. So what? What does that have to do with anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
I’ll take a Roland R8M with an API 2500 and Pulse 2 with a stereo NEVE channel any day over these “vintage” units.
Why on earth would you do that when you could get a perfectly good MC303 for 100$? You must be a fool.
Old 25th April 2018
  #494
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by HUBA View Post
Yeah vintage synth prices are, like everything else, just hype and meaningless fluctuations based on nothing but fashion and thin air. After all, there's nothing about their sound that could have anything to do with it. And if someone is willing to pay 20.000$ for a jupiter 8, it means people paying 1000$ for an SH-101 can be thrown in the same category of stupidity because both are believing in some vintage tone unicorn. The world is nothing but a big ignorance machine producing ignorance. That fluctuates. Lucky for you that you're smart enough to see through it all



I would too. So what? What does that have to do with anything?



Why on earth would you do that when you could get a perfectly good MC303 for 100$? You must be a fool.
You bought Bitcoin at $20,000 huh? Haha


You:

I would too. So what? What does that have to do with anything?

Why on earth would you do that when you could get a perfectly good MC303 for 100$? You must be a fool.



Me:

I thought all vintage synths sound better?

Because that’s the BEST sound! THE BEST. BETTER.

The MC303 through dual Neve channels and an Elysia compressor sounds way better than some clunky, buzzy, antique.

Fact. Everyone knows it. I’ve had endless tops come off as proof.

Last edited by Deleted User; 26th April 2018 at 12:08 AM..
Old 25th April 2018
  #495
Here for the gear
 

I’m willing to pay 7 grand for an OBX?

I’m also willing to pay 30 grand for an Ondes Martenot

Things cost what they cost, complaining about the prices of gear from the perspective of “you sheeple are stupid!” is boring.
Old 25th April 2018
  #496
Gear Guru
 
zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthesia1073 View Post
Just to touch base with you, I'm an audio engineer, and an electrical engineer, who is moving on to Audiology. Who was also born with the ability to 'see' sound(synthesia).

The overlap I was speaking of, is not equipment based. It was on the state of mind of the people who designed the equipment of the 50-80's era or the people who taught them how to design. It's not the materials that make the equipment, it's the hands and the mind that built them. These racks were not machine made like today's equipment, they were hand made.

These ppl just came out of the war of all wars, in 5000 years.

They ARE engineers, to the fullest(BTW I had 2 grandfathers in the world wars).

You mention generations apart, this statement is inferring that mankind makes progress every generation, which is far from the truth.

More than often we step back, on a subsequent generation(s). We just don't find out until later.

More power = higher resolution of the colombs travelling through the connections. Which basically means more electrons are moving through the equipment, which equates a higher resolution of the sound signal.

YouTube

more electrons = higher resolution
which means a compressor can react quicker and more effieciently
especially an opto compressor, not that opto is the best

You want higher power, not lower...

YouTube

This is how I understand it, ... but then again I could be TOTALLY wrong. I'm just working to figure it out, like you are. As I am an audiophile.


Also, i feel the term 'over built reliability' is an oxymoron.

Great dialog though.

Like I said, I could be totally wrong...which is a good thing! as the answer is near!
Does the sound of old VCOs look better than the sound of modern ones?
Old 25th April 2018
  #497
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
You bought Bitcoin at $20,000 huh? Haha

I thought all vintage synths sound better?

Because that’s the BEST sound! THE BEST. BETTER.

The MC303 through dual Neve channels and an Elysia compressor sounds way better than some clunky, buzzy, antique.

Fact. Everyone knows it. I’ve had endless tops come off as proof.
Wow, you got me there. How can I argue against such striking logic? Reminds me, I'm out of beer.
Old 25th April 2018
  #498
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soundebler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Does the sound of old VCOs look better than the sound of modern ones?
Yes

Old 25th April 2018
  #499
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Does the sound of old VCOs look better than the sound of modern ones?
I've never A/B'd them, not in isolation anyways, and not for that purpose.

I can see the soundstage in a stereo or mono mix, when I'm in the 'zone' (the same state athletes create) at the mixing desk with the lights low. It is monochromographic grey and opaque.

But I've never paid attention to how it looks, just how it feels and sounds.

But to be honest, now in 2018, as compared to 2010...
There are so many new hardware synthesizers in the world, it has now become impossible to listen to all of them yourself.

I just pay attention to ones my favorite sound designers and artists recommend, and pick from those. Which was actually something someone on their own could do back in 2005 to 2010. But now in 2018 there are literally hundreds of new synths being created across the global community. There is now way somebody can check them all out.
Old 25th April 2018
  #500
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
Does the sound of old VCOs look better than the sound of modern ones?
It depends. With say an old oscilloscope, it would look rounder and deeper, while with modern screens it would look more edgy and flat or 2 dimentional. It's all in the screen.
Old 25th April 2018
  #501
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monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundebler View Post
Yes

Yeah, and here's how all the new VCO's look like:

Old 25th April 2018
  #502
Gear Maniac
 

cheap ****e sounds cheap to my ears
Old 25th April 2018
  #503
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soundebler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
Yeah, and here's how all the new VCO's look like:

That is nice circular saw
Old 25th April 2018
  #504
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monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by leaf studios View Post
cheap ****e sounds cheap to my ears
So at what price does it sounds expensive to you?
Old 25th April 2018
  #505
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j3rk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
Yeah, and here's how all the new VCO's look like:

I specifically like how the new VCO's wave can occupy two points in time simultaneously!
Old 25th April 2018
  #506
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Bach666's Avatar
 

Maybe, I was totally wrong about this being a stupid thread. Maybe, in actuality, this is the single greatest thread ever created in the history of Gearslutz.
Old 25th April 2018
  #507
Gear Maniac
 

Possibly leaked from the Quantum bunkers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j3rk View Post
I specifically like how the new VCO's wave can occupy two points in time simultaneously!
Old 25th April 2018
  #508
Lives for gear
 
monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by j3rk View Post
I specifically like how the new VCO's wave can occupy two points in time simultaneously!
It's because those are digital VCO's. Everyone can hear that. It's obvious. No discussion possible. Etc.
Old 25th April 2018
  #509
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j3rk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monomer View Post
It's because those are digital VCO's. Everyone can hear that. It's obvious. No discussion possible. Etc.
One book... "Digital VCOs and Me, This Sort of Thing is my Bag Baby"

...signed by monomer...
Old 25th April 2018
  #510
Lives for gear
 

Turing Wept!
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