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Why Don't New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 21st April 2018
  #331
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So all old synths sound amazing and they all have this magical tone?

All of them?

There isn’t one new analog that “beats” an old analog?

None of the new ones have the magic fairy dust?

Not even one?
Old 21st April 2018
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
So all old synths sound amazing and they all have this magical tone?

All of them?

There isn’t one new analog that “beats” an old analog?

None of the new ones have the magic fairy dust?

Not even one?
Yes that's exactly how everybody feels. What's your point?
Old 21st April 2018
  #333
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HUBA View Post
Yes that's exactly how everybody feels. What's your point?
No its not
Old 21st April 2018
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
In other words, you don't present a premise as a conclusion, you argue it out and form a conclusion.
Yes, good thing your reading comprehension is terrible and you misunderstood the OP completely.

The intended conclusion is whatever design and engineering factors result in favorable differences between new VCO synths and old VCO synths.

The premise is simply that favorable differences exist.

This exactly why he says he doesn't want to argue whether old VCO synths sound better - that's the premise. Instead he wants respondents to argue why they sound better, arriving at possible conclusions consisting of the design/engineering factors. He suggests "clocking, pitch control, amps, signal chains or all the above" as a possible conclusion, but leaves the topic open to discussion. This squares perfectly with the framework you just laid out.

Moreover, as I've stated repeatedly, a flawed premise absolutely does not prevent respondents from contributing constructive answers to a discussion. The fact that other users have continued to propose VCA's, PSU's, capacitors, and so forth as potential factors proves this is the case.
Old 21st April 2018
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by autoy View Post
Already considering the difference in level there’s a difference in dynamics too and how the sound is blended in a less defined, more pleasing way on the older unit. It’s the little things really, I wouldn’t pay 3 o 4 times for such difference, but disregarding money I think it’s evident.
...and you’re certain that you’d hear that difference in a mix once everything is EQd, Compressed, FXd and Mastered? You’d bet your reputation and all your belongings on that?

The trouble with all these kinds of threads is that people compare sounds in isolation, more often than not with no FX or EQ, and honestly... how many pieces of music / songs are ever recorded like that? I can practically guarantee that in a mix with other instruments, ALL synths will need EQ to some degree in order to play well within a track.

The synth is just the starting point. There is so much more that can be done to shape the sound in the mix, so the take-away from this as far as music creation is concerned is that it’s not the be-all-and-end-all what a synth sounds like in dry isolation. What’s more important is that you like its inherent tone, the interface for sound creation and how you connect with it.

However, if people are not buying synths for creating music but instead to collect them like fine wines, play them dry and in isolation then that’s a different issue completely and I can then understand why the dry nuances of tone would come into play and why they’d be so important.

I feel there are two types of synth buyers here. Those that use them as musical tools and those who collect and appreciate them for what they are. Perhaps a third where there’s a cross-over. In any case, this thread (and others) will therefore have different perspectives depending on the buyer’s eventual use of the synth.

No?
Old 21st April 2018
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSM2030 View Post
No its not
Really? Are you sure?
Old 21st April 2018
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnalvl View Post
Yes, good thing your reading comprehension is terrible and you misunderstood the OP completely.

The intended conclusion is whatever design and engineering factors result in favorable differences between new VCO synths and old VCO synths.

The premise is simply that favorable differences exist.

This exactly why he says he doesn't want to argue whether old VCO synths sound better - that's the premise. Instead he wants respondents to argue why they sound better, arriving at possible conclusions consisting of the design factors. He suggests "clocking, pitch control, amps, signal chains or all the above" as a possible conclusion, but leaves the topic open to discussion. This squares perfectly with the framework you just laid out.
You start off with an ad hominem, a personal attack in lieu of a logical retort. That’s logical fallacy number one.

Then you try to reframe your argument as his, which if you follow the OP’s posts in this thread, is not what he’s saying at all ( the last line in his op makes it clear he’s all about oscillators). Had you used his flawed premise, which you now see as flawed, to begin a new productive position, you’d have been on solid ground, but that’s not what you did, you keep defending his flawed premise, instead. Logical fallacy number two.

You keep cherry picking quotes and reframing the argument and moving goalposts hoping to distract everyone away from the OP’s “premise as conclusion”, and which, since you defend him with such Fervor seems to be your position as well ... all of which, with great irony, makes your entire contribution in this thread, one, big, fat strawman.

Last edited by Sharp11; 21st April 2018 at 05:38 PM..
Old 21st April 2018
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
You start off with an ad hominem, a personal attack in lieu of a logical retort. That’s logically fallacy number one.

Then you try to reframe your argument as his, which if you follow the OP’s posts in this thread, is not what he’s saying at all. Logical fallacy number two.

You keep cherry picking quotes and reframing the argument and moving goalposts hoping to distract everyone away from the OP’s “premise as conclusion”, and which, since you defend him with such Fervor seems to be your position as well ... all of which, with great irony, makes your entire contribution in this thread, one, big, fat strawman.
Or maybe he just wants to discuss the original issue because he actually finds that to be more interesting than to deliberately trying to misinturpret what the OP is saying, disecting his post looking for flaws and otherwise spend all his energy on derailing the thread
Old 21st April 2018
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HUBA View Post
Yes that's exactly how everybody feels. What's your point?
You know how everyone feels? Wow!
Old 21st April 2018
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
You know how everyone feels? Wow!
That's right. Impressive, don't you think?
Old 21st April 2018
  #341
Deleted User
Guest
No, the OP is classic “begging the question”

Begging the question, sometimes known by its Latin name petitio principii (meaning assuming the initial point), is a logical fallacy in which the writer or speaker assumes the statement under examination to be true. In other words, begging the question involves using a premise to support itself.

“Why Don't New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs?
I don't want to debate *if* they do. That much is obvious.”


It’s kind of a loaded question:

A loaded question or complex question fallacy is a question that contains a controversial or unjustified assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt).[1]

Aside from being an informal fallacy depending on usage, such questions may be used as a rhetorical tool: the question attempts to limit direct replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda.[2] The traditional example is the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" Whether the respondent answers yes or no, he will admit to having a wife and having beaten her at some time in the past.
Old 21st April 2018
  #342
Gear Addict
 
01rsa's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
So all old synths sound amazing and they all have this magical tone?

All of them?

There isn’t one new analog that “beats” an old analog?

None of the new ones have the magic fairy dust?

Not even one?
I don't know if anyone here said that or maybe it was just for trolling.

There are many new synths that have a sound that is pleasing even to vintage sound afficionados.
Dreadbox, MFB, Vermona, Karp, Macbeth, Trax, Moog Model D reedit, Boog, Arturia.. The list is quite long of manufacturers who made it good.

Now some frustration may come from the fact that some manufacturers that were aware the market was asking for the vintage sound marketed some premium priced items like they sound like the real thing while they were simply not.
This situation lasted for 20+ years and many musicians have been spending big $$$ out of alternatives.
Now after Moog charged 3000$ for their true Model D replica ( do you remember the voyager old school?) I'm happy Behringer enters the game and sells the same sound for 300$.

I'm not accusing anyone since there are many factors to consider.. Small companies vs big manufacturers, engineers point of vue vs musicians point of vue...etc but there's a reality that explains why vintage gear's prices have skyrocketed whereas it's apparently not so hard to deliver the type of sound the musicians asked for years while most manufacturers didn't care to deliver.
Old 21st April 2018
  #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
You start off with an ad hominem, a personal attack in lieu of a logical retort.
Oh, but it is a logical retort because you literally misinterpreted the post like a child trying to smash square pegs into round holes. You've chosen to focus on ad hom in lieu of disproving how clearly and easily "why" slots as a conclusion separate from the premise of "old VCOs sound better".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Then you try to reframe your argument as his, which if you follow the OP’s posts in this thread, is not what he’s saying at all.
1) If I "reframed" my argument, where does it actually differ from my previous posts in the thread?

2) If neonrider's posts later in the thread contradict this interpretation, why have you failed to cite them to illustrate how? So far it's a baseless assertion.

3) What rule forbids neonrider from changing his position or his subject of focus later in the thread?

4) What difference does neonrider's position actually make to other users discussing possible design and engineering factors behind old VCO synths sounding better?

5) How does your opinion of neonrider's premise (or jamie munroe's, or SSM2030's, etc.) actually contribute to the discussion of possible design and engineering factors behind old VCO synths sounding better?
Old 21st April 2018
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HUBA View Post
Or maybe he just wants to discuss the original issue because he actually finds that to be more interesting than to deliberately trying to misinturpret what the OP is saying, disecting his post looking for flaws and otherwise spend all his energy on derailing the thread
Gnalvl's done a good job of reinterpreting and rewriting the narrative of the OP's into his own, don't ya think?

And yes, derailing the thread.
Old 21st April 2018
  #345
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monomer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Gnalvl's done a good job of reinterpreting and rewriting the narrative of the OP's into his own, don't ya think?

And yes, derailing the thread.
Don't kid yourself. This thread has been going down hill since page 2...
Old 21st April 2018
  #346
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by 01rsa View Post
I don't know if anyone here said that or maybe it was just for trolling.

There are many new synths that have a sound that is pleasing even to vintage sound afficionados.
Dreadbox, MFB, Vermona, Karp, Macbeth, Trax, Moog Model D reedit, Boog, Arturia.. The list is quite long of manufacturers who made it good.

Now some frustration may come from the fact that some manufacturers that were aware the market was asking for the vintage sound marketed some premium priced items like they sound like the real thing while they were simply not.
This situation lasted for 20+ years and many musicians have been spending big $$$ out of alternatives.
Now after Moog charged 3000$ for their true Model D replica ( do you remember the voyager old school?) I'm happy Behringer enters the game and sells the same sound for 300$.

I'm not accusing anyone since there are many factors to consider.. Small companies vs big manufacturers, engineers point of vue vs musicians point of vue...etc but there's a reality that explains why vintage gear's prices have skyrocketed whereas it's apparently not so hard to deliver the type of sound the musicians asked for years while most manufacturers didn't care to deliver.
Sir,

The thread began with this:


“Why Don't New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs?
I don't want to debate *if* they do. That much is obvious.”



And, then, the thread carried on for quite some time with this narrative.

Everyone knows Caravaggio is a better painter than Cezanne.

Oh, please ...

Last edited by Deleted User; 22nd April 2018 at 01:41 AM..
Old 21st April 2018
  #347
Gear Addict
 
01rsa's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
Sir,

The thread began with this:


“Why Don't New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs?
I don't want to debate *if* they do. That much is obvious.”



And, then, the thread carried on for quite some time with this narrative.

Everyone knows Carravagio is a better painter than Cezanne.

Oh, please ...
Sure there's not anything as simple as good or bad.. at least when we're considering art but I guess OP's point of view was easily understandable.
He kept it simple but it's not a reason to take it to the letter. I'm sure we all know what old analog synths sounds vs new analog synths sounds means even if some new synths sound old and some old sound..well.. quite bad.
Old 21st April 2018
  #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnalvl View Post
Oh, but it is a logical retort because you literally misinterpreted the post like a child trying to smash square pegs into round holes. You've chosen to focus on ad hom in lieu of disproving how clearly and easily "why" slots as a conclusion separate from the premise of "old VCOs sound better".
Because, unlike you, I cannot get into the OP's mind and try to figure out what he really meant to say and rewrite his narrative for him, this is the "interpretation" I'm sticking with, your personal insults not withstanding.

Trashman posted the definition of "begging the question", since you're such a fan of logical fallacies, I'm surprised you missed it, here it is again:

Begging the question, sometimes known by its Latin name petitio principii (meaning assuming the initial point), is a logical fallacy in which the writer or speaker assumes the statement under examination to be true. In other words, begging the question involves using a premise to support itself.

“Why Don't New VCOs Sound as Good as Old VCOs?
I don't want to debate *if* they do. That much is obvious.”

It’s kind of a loaded question:

A loaded question or complex question fallacy is a question that contains a controversial or unjustified assumption (e.g., a presumption of guilt).[1]

Aside from being an informal fallacy depending on usage, such questions may be used as a rhetorical tool: the question attempts to limit direct replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda.[2] The traditional example is the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" Whether the respondent answers yes or no, he will admit to having a wife and having beaten her at some time in the past.


Quote:

1) If I "reframed" my argument, where does it actually differ from my previous posts in the thread?
What I said was you reframed your argument as the OP's.

Quote:
2) If neonrider's posts later in the thread contradict this interpretation, why have you failed to cite them to illustrate how? So far it's a baseless assertion.
This is a strawman.

I'm not arguing with him, I'm arguing with you - it's your assertions I'm dealing with right now. I've already dismissed his central argument as a logical fallacy (see above), again, for repetition it's called: "Begging the Question".

Quote:
3) What rule forbids neonrider from changing his position or his subject of focus later in the thread?
Another strawman.

None, anyone can change his position anytime, however, I have a problem with people changing other people's positions for them.

Quote:
4) What difference does neonrider's position actually make to other users discussing possible design and engineering factors behind old VCO synths sounding better?

5) How does your opinion of neonrider's premise (or jamie munroe's, or SSM2030's, etc.) actually contribute to the discussion of possible design and engineering factors behind old VCO synths sounding better?
What sounds "better" to someone is completely subjective - I can't imagine what other people hear and like or dislike.

At any rate, more strawman; and since you project this behavior on others, it might be a good time to self-reflect: here's a good definition and example of your narrative in this thread:

Straw Person fallacies occur when a person attacks an exaggerated, distorted, or false version of an opponent's argument because it is easier than dealing with the real points that the opponent makes. It would be a lot easier to defeat a person made of straw in a fight then a real person—especially a strong one.

Example: My opponent agrees with a federal vaccine advisory panel’s recommendation that all girls and women between the ages of eleven and twenty-six should receive a new vaccine that prevents most cases of cervical cancer. This cancer is related to sexual activity. Encouraging girls as young as eleven to engage in sex is incredibly irresponsible; my opponent is clearly not fit for office.


Add to that, a little "tainted sample":

A Tainted Sample is produced when people collect evidence in a such a way that they are likely to find more evidence in support of their desired conclusions than against them ...

Example: I can prove my point—I found this great web site that posted dozens of articles that all show that I am right!
Old 21st April 2018
  #349
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 01rsa View Post
Sure there's not anything as simple as good or bad.. at least when we're considering art but I guess OP's point of view was easily understandable.
He kept it simple but it's not a reason to take it to the letter. I'm sure we all know what old analog synths sounds vs new analog synths sounds means even if some new synths sound old and some old sound..well.. quite bad.
Details are important, imagine writing a chart for five horns and spelling just a few chords wrong - "yeah, we knew he meant to write a C7#9 instead of a C9, and that F maj7 #11 in the piano part conflicting with the singer's Bb must've been a misprint in the score".

Old 21st April 2018
  #350
Gear Addict
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
Details are important, imagine writing a chart for five horns and spelling just a few chords wrong - "yeah, we knew he meant to write a C7#9 instead of a C9, and that F maj7 #11 in the piano part conflicting with the singer's Bb must've been a misprint in the score".

I'm not an reading musician but even in this context I've read that many jazz charts have to be interpreted by the musicians where the swing is not writed correctly for ease of reading.
Old 21st April 2018
  #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markodarko View Post
...and you’re certain that you’d hear that difference in a mix once everything is EQd, Compressed, FXd and Mastered? You’d bet your reputation and all your belongings on that?

The trouble with all these kinds of threads is that people compare sounds in isolation, more often than not with no FX or EQ, and honestly... how many pieces of music / songs are ever recorded like that? I can practically guarantee that in a mix with other instruments, ALL synths will need EQ to some degree in order to play well within a track.

The synth is just the starting point. There is so much more that can be done to shape the sound in the mix, so the take-away from this as far as music creation is concerned is that it’s not the be-all-and-end-all what a synth sounds like in dry isolation. What’s more important is that you like its inherent tone, the interface for sound creation and how you connect with it.

However, if people are not buying synths for creating music but instead to collect them like fine wines, play them dry and in isolation then that’s a different issue completely and I can then understand why the dry nuances of tone would come into play and why they’d be so important.

I feel there are two types of synth buyers here. Those that use them as musical tools and those who collect and appreciate them for what they are. Perhaps a third where there’s a cross-over. In any case, this thread (and others) will therefore have different perspectives depending on the buyer’s eventual use of the synth.

No?
It's a combination of things:

People buy new synths and play the presets, then compare that to what they think they're hearing on old recordings - some of which feature synths programmed by people who actually knew what they were doing.

People buy new synths, then spend hours reading threads, develop buyer's remorse and enter the rabbit hole of searching for something "vintage".

People buy vintage synths with dying electronics for a large sums of money, are unprepared for downtime and intimate knowledge of devoted websites for repair services - then find they have a sometimes-working hybrid of a new/old parts synth that doesn't do half of the cool stuff possible on new models which they can no longer afford because they wasted a ton of money bringing an 80's era budget Japanese synth up to workable specs.

Having owned synths for 40 years, I can tell you ...

Recovery is just a step away!
Old 21st April 2018
  #352
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 01rsa View Post
I'm not an reading musician but even in this context I've read that many jazz charts have to be interpreted by the musicians where the swing is not writed correctly for ease of reading.
I wasn't talking about jazz ... but there are things that cannot be notated in a score and are often understood or indicated by the composer/arranger - the "feel" of time is one of them. However, the stuff that's supposed to be there has to be accurately notated

The problem with this thread is the OP makes a statement of fact that's really just his opinion, and 9 or 10 pages later, people are fighting to the death over it and one poster in particular has decided it's his mission to rescue the OP.
Old 21st April 2018
  #353
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Gnalvl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
You were challenged by a poster for your false analogies. This sent you on a tear ... which you now blame on everyone's "misinterpretation" of the OP.
My analogy was specifically about how certain people were misinterpreting the OP. So that's not a change in my argument, that's perfectly consistent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
I'm not arguing with him, I'm arguing with you
And yet you're not actually arguing against my main point that the OP addressed the rest of a synth's signal path in his post. So why does your opinion concern me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
I have a problem with people changing other people's positions for them.
And yet I've been quoting the OP verbatim. He explains his premise and his question in plain English. It is you who are proposing his position is different from what he says.

The core question you have yet to answer is why anyone should care about your interpretation of the OP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by trashman View Post
Aside from being an informal fallacy depending on usage, such questions may be used as a rhetorical tool: the question attempts to limit direct replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda.
Yes, the questioner's quite explicit agenda is to ask what design and engineering differences in old VCO synths are producing the sonic differences he prefers. What's wrong with that?

Even if we assume he really does have an ulterior motive to "convince" fans of new VCO synths that they purchased an inferior product, who cares? It's common knowledge that many members of Gearslutz feel vintage synths hold a magic not replicated in newer synths; this assertion is not new to Neonrider's post, and anyone who disagrees is free to ignore the thread.

Are you suggesting that neonrider's post is going to fool unwitting owners of new VCO synths into selling their existing gear and going bankrupt collecting vintage synths they don't actually enjoy? Not only is that highly improbable, but no adult is responsible for how they spend their money but themselves.
Old 21st April 2018
  #354
Gear Addict
 
01rsa's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11 View Post
I wasn't talking about jazz ... but there are things that cannot be notated in a score and are often understood or indicated by the composer/arranger - the "feel" of time is one of them. However, the stuff that's supposed to be there has to be accurately notated

The problem with this thread is the OP makes a statement of fact that's really just his opinion, and 9 or 10 pages later, people are fighting to the death over it and one poster in particular has decided it's his mission to rescue the OP.
Rescue the OP or the people fighting to death for 10 pages for nothing but their opinion?
No, I care for myself and write what I think that's all. I don't know any VCO who would care to rescue me.
Old 21st April 2018
  #355
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnalvl View Post
Yes, the questioner's quite explicit agenda is to ask what design and engineering differences in old VCO synths are producing the sonic differences he prefers.
Yes please tell us then? You have defended him in every of your 18 posts now and they are not short. Maybe its time for you to contribute as you say others should do that actually have.
This thread should have ended with post 2. All misinterpreting (in your opinion) of the OP should give you a clue why.
Old 21st April 2018
  #356
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Gnalvl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSM2030 View Post
This thread should have ended with post 2. All misinterpreting (in your opinion) of the OP should give you a clue why.
So 10 pages of constructive answers by Vertflyer, pppch, robot gigante, autoy, NoTBatmaN, adamstan, mrmadbrain, Rufuss Sewell, fromthepuggle, enossified, TOYZ, and dozens of others actually addressing the topic are all invalid and have no right to ever have been posted, simply because a few of you have chosen to quibble over the wording of the OP?

Old 21st April 2018
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnalvl View Post
And yet you're not actually arguing against my main point that the OP addressed the rest of a synth's signal path in his post. So why does your opinion concern me?
Your "main point" has been to hang your hat on one line of text in the OP's initial post, and to ignore the entirety of his position, which he attempts to clarify in his second post.

Perhaps this "concerns you" because it threatens your entire narrative, I don't know for sure, but ad hominems are usually a good indicator

It's evident in the two posts he's contributed to this thread he believes the oscillator, and "some kind of DSP control" of the oscillators is responsible for taking away the "aliveness" of newer synths.

He writes this in his second post, where his frustration with his opinion not being taken as fact becomes apparent (and where genuine, real, and authentic become three separate things LOL):

Quote:
none of the new VCO synths seem to have genuine, real, authentic, uncontrolled oscillator instability. something is going between dsp and voltage control that sucks the musicality out of these oscillators. it's true that if all you've played is soft synths then new VCO synths sound alive. but if you put them next to their grandparents, it's immediately apparent that something is very, very wrong with the approach of constant DSP pitch/phase correction versus primitive Autotune.
Neonrider has done a pretty good job articulating his position.

You been challenged to step out of your self-appointed role as doing neonrider's bidding and articulate a position of your own.

We're waiting.
Old 21st April 2018
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnalvl View Post
So 10 pages of constructive answers by Vertflyer, pppch, robot gigante, autoy, NoTBatmaN, adamstan, mrmadbrain, Rufuss Sewell, fromthepuggle, enossified, TOYZ, and dozens of others actually addressing the topic are all invalid and have no right to ever have been posted, simply because a few of you have chosen to quibble over the wording of the OP?

It's logical fallacy Saturday - there must be a special on them!

A Tainted Sample is produced when people collect evidence in a such a way that they are likely to find more evidence in support of their desired conclusions than against them, despite what thorough, objective evidence-gathering would find. This is related to Confirmation Bias.

Example: I can prove my point—I found this great web site that posted dozens of articles that all show that I am right!
*

Not even getting into who's using words to hang his hat on ...

* What are some good examples of informal logical fallacies? - Quora
Old 21st April 2018
  #359
Gear Head
 
pre55ure's Avatar
 

This is way more fun than discussing synths.
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Old 21st April 2018
  #360
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I agree that some of the opening post of this thread could probably been worded differently.

How about this:

Arguably, there have been many synth heads, over the last 20 years or so, that have arrived at a similar conclusion to mine, namely that newish VCO based synths for some reason don't have the same degree of pleasing tone to them as those made in the 70's and 80's.

If those of you who disagree with the premise that old VCO based synths sound better than new could be so kind to conduct your business elswhere, so that we could avoid 12 pages of bickering, it would be highly apprechiated.

I don't intend to offend anyone that thinks new VCO based synths sound just as good as any of the old ones, I just would like to know what some of you that hear similar things as I discribe, when playing old VCO based synths, think is the main reason(s) why new VCO based synths don't have that same «magic» tone.

Thanks to all of you who disagree with this premise for leaving this thread to us superstitious, nostalgic snobs. Under no circumstance would I question your knowledge, and even though I ask you to stay out of this particular discussion, I still have the deepest respect for your perspective on this matter, I just think that in this particular thread it would be a more fruitfull discussion if it was left out.

Many thanks

neonrider



Would it help, or would you still strive to keep the one actual question in this thread from being discussed?
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