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Waldorf Kyra FPGA Rack/Desktop Coming to NAMM 2019 (originally Exodus Valkyrie) Desktop Synthesizers
Old 27th January 2019
  #721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy View Post
Other than Quantum, I think Kyra won NAMM this year. Quantum is such a wonder machine though.
Between Quantum 2.0 and the Kyra, Waldorf was by far the most interesting synth gear at NAMM for me.
Old 27th January 2019
  #722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praiseallah View Post
Next you're going to tell me the world isn't flat :>

I suppose they are competing products in a sense, still don't understand why you'd sabotage a product like that though
Either that or they just don't have their act together. Or maybe because all of their effort is being spent on Quantum they don't have the resources to go around?

But I would say that the no release date or price is somewhat of a hint as to what's going on.
Old 27th January 2019
  #723
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mickey13's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
Why all the glory to one minor figure?
I was referring to a comment made by @Synthpark and by bringing up Hartmann's credentials, my intent was to illustrate he is not some sort of complacent smart ass and even if he is, he is flexible enough to collaborate with a number of different companies and to be viewed by them as a valuable asset in designing their products. If he was some obnoxious synth primadonna, no one would give a crap about the guy. That doesn't even matter anymore, my comment stems from a misconception on my part and @Synthpark has already clarified it in a courteous manner that his claim was more of a casual hyperbole expressing his disappointment and discontent with the final design of the rack/desktop version of Kyra and wasn't an ad-hominem attack directed at anybody. Neither did he mean any harm, nor did I. Obviously, Manuel is the prime creative force behind this project, where have I stated otherwise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klonfocius View Post
He's just a industrial designer. He just doing the frontpanel graphics layout, sometimes case , layout of knobs switches, nothing else.

No fundamental hard work such as electrical engineering , no software coding, no soldering, no magic smoke , no powersupply, none of the nitty gritty stuff, only the glamour, the "bling"!

You have to learn the difference between engineers and designers, engineers "engineers and design" while designers just design.

No paint no painting, easy to draw a nice looking enclosure in a cad program but that does not make any sounds which you buy the thing for alright?.

For example for the Schmidt and Voyager he only did the panel graphics. Surely you judge your synth for the sound and not for the looks?

He have made great panel designs but also also utter crap. hes just a human with a special interest. Absolutely no superstar that shall be written some magic powers, like narcissistic musicians always want!
I am perfectly aware of the difference between an engineer and a designer.

Except that a layout of a synth as complex as Kyra is also kind of important and constitutes one of the more significant parts of the synth itself? I get that it doesn't take a genius to design a front panel of some simple analog synth, but designing a front panel of some complex digital synth necessitates almost always some sort of compromise, you cannot prioritize every single aspect of the machine, so you're always forced to make a number of ergonomic decisions which results in different UIs. It's not about throwing a bunch of knobs against the front panel, it's about creating a certain experience.

The flow of the programming is exceedingly important. Likewise, it's apparently not solely about the glamour if some people have already taken issue with the layout, is it? It is there to facilitate the process of sound creation. If the UI is confusing, people will opt for software instead. And yeah, Andromeda's UI was pretty confusing for that matter which only goes on to show how much a bad layout can prostrate a great sounding synth and become an impediment to sound design for some users. Although I like good-looking synths, I don't give a crap about synth's paint job as long as it is built to last and sounds good, so I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

Neither is he a smart ass, nor is he a Mary Poppins of the synth world. He's made some good stuff, some bad stuff. The end. Let's move on. I'm already sick and tired of talking about this guy.

Last edited by mickey13; 27th January 2019 at 09:01 PM.. Reason: errors
Old 27th January 2019
  #724
Quote:
Originally Posted by praiseallah View Post
I suppose they are competing products in a sense, still don't understand why you'd sabotage a product like that though
I can't imagine they would. The Kyra and Quantum aren't likely to be seen as competing directly with each other. It's got to be as simple as the Kyra physical design or and manufacturing not being as far along as they assumed it would be when they shared information about it last year.
Old 27th January 2019
  #725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praiseallah View Post
Next you're going to tell me the world isn't flat :>

I suppose they are competing products in a sense, still don't understand why you'd sabotage a product like that though
Nothing is sabotaged.

Waldorf understands that tradeshow presentation is not particularly important. Just a few online synth geeks (me being one of them) get annoyed or disappointed because they didn't get more info. Kyra will succeed or not depending on its merits as a synth.

If you listened to the talk on GS over the past year plus, the Quantum has been a disaster... the initial presets sucked, the demos sucked, Waldorf doesn't know what they are doing... why don't they do this, why don't they do that... and yet here we are and the Quantum is in high demand and selling well and is just adding a full 6op synth inside an already powerful synth.

If I were a betting man I would bet Kyra will do well. Not much out there with 128 voice polyphony, 8 part multi-timbral, pure synth and knobby interface. It sounds really good (for more sounds listen to last years Valkyrie videos) and is a new fresh face.

I know I'll be buying one the day it is available. I think it and the Quantum compliment each other well. Quantum is the sound design monster and Kyra fills in the polyphony and multi-timbral parts.
Old 27th January 2019
  #726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEXUS-6 View Post
Either that or they just don't have their act together. Or maybe because all of their effort is being spent on Quantum they don't have the resources to go around?

But I would say that the no release date or price is somewhat of a hint as to what's going on.
Just seems really strange. The person demoing Kyra knew absolutely nothing about it in the first video and in the second video he was spouting off a load information that you could tell he didn't understand himself, looked like they'd pulled him straight out of a musical instrument shop just to stand on the booth / stall. He didn't seem to understand anything about synthesis, he spent a lot of time randomly pressing buttons and turning knobs (which sometimes did absolutely nothing). Waldorf would have known that it was a hot topic, just boggles the mind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mickey13 View Post
...Except that the layout of a synth as complex as Kyra is also kind of important and constitutes one of the more significant parts of the synth itself?
It's certainly important but not one of the most, no. Plenty of synths that are well loved which have terrible UI (some more complex than Kyra too like the FS1r).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
I can't imagine they would. The Kyra and Quantum aren't likely to be seen as competing directly with each other. It's got to be as simple as the Kyra physical design or and manufacturing not being as far along as they assumed it would be when they shared information about it last year.
I think it may have something to do with Manuel, he seems very particular, passionate about the synth, and, seems like he is somewhat of a perfectionist. Great news for us as I don't think he'll cut any corners or release it before it's ready. The videos with Manuel are really nice to watched, he's just so enthused (they're also the best sound demoes too and by a long run).
Kyra and Quantum are different enough but I guess they're still in competition in at least once sense; some people may not be able to afford both at once (they're kn the same range too imo) and I guess too much coverage of Kyra might detract from Quantum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by draig View Post
Nothing is sabotaged.

Waldorf understands that tradeshow presentation is not particularly important. Just a few online synth geeks (me being one of them) get annoyed or disappointed because they didn't get more info. Kyra will succeed or not depending on its merits as a synth.
It's important enough to be there and it's free advertising / marketing (and a lot of people were following it).
There was enough information in the original videos, some sound demoes would have been nice (and even though the synth sounds good all but one of those demoes were not musical at all, that could cost sales).
That is true but I think a lot of sales will be made on hoe it sounds in demoes and just on the specs (like the polyphony).

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEXUS-6 View Post

If you listened to the talk on GS over the past year plus, the Quantum has been a disaster... the initial presets sucked, the demos sucked, Waldorf doesn't know what they are doing... why don't they do this, why don't they do that... and yet here we are and the Quantum is in high demand and selling well and is just adding a full 6op synth inside an already powerful synth.
Missed all of it :p. I was a little disappointed that Waldorf made certain design choices with the Quantum but it looks and sounds great. I think a lot of people just want a hybrid wavetable / VCF poly which it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEXUS-6 View Post

If I were a betting man I would bet Kyra will do well. Not much out there with 128 voice polyphony, 8 part multi-timbral, pure synth and knobby interface. It sounds really good (for more sounds listen to last years Valkyrie videos) and is a new fresh face.

I know I'll be buying one the day it is available. I think it and the Quantum compliment each other well. Quantum is the sound design monster and Kyra fills in the polyphony and multi-timbral parts.
It does sound really nice (the Manuel demos) and I think there will be a lot of people who were waiting for a new Virus will pick one up - kind of looks like a Ti+.

I decided to pick one up from the original demos, looks to be a very capable synth that will do pretty much everything
Old 27th January 2019
  #727
Gear Nut
 

Don’t know why, but some of the sounds from these demos give me straight-up nausea. Maybe it’s all those detuned oscillators and however much other motion is whirling around, but when I hear those string patches I get dizzy. I hope some real sound designers get their hands on this machine and make it sing, because I believe in this technology and these specs, but as of right now I still have yet to be convinced of the sonority of this synth.
Old 27th January 2019
  #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vldslsdrkwlya View Post
Don’t know why, but some of the sounds from these demos give me straight-up nausea. Maybe it’s all those detuned oscillators and however much other motion is whirling around, but when I hear those string patches I get dizzy. I hope some real sound designers get their hands on this machine and make it sing, because I believe in this technology and these specs, but as of right now I still have yet to be convinced of the sonority of this synth.
Thd new demos? I think that was down to the guy demoing it. Have you seen the old demos?

Old 27th January 2019
  #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praiseallah View Post
It's certainly important but not one of the most, no. Plenty of synths that are well loved which have terrible UI (some more complex than Kyra too like the FS1r).
If modern hardware doesn't offer an intuitive interface, most people these days will turn to software because it's simply quicker and more convenient. Just saying. The rule may not apply to vintage synths, as those will be sought after for their particular flavors. I do understand that certain keyboards are loved for their particular vibe. I love the way DX7 sounds, but programming that thing would probably prove torturous, so I might as well shell out my money for something less frustrating or simply turn to software. Synths nerds love their vintage gear despite their interfaces which doesn't nullify the importance of hardware interface, bad UIs still constitute a palpable hindrance to facile sound creation. If you turn to hardware these days, it's because of tactile interaction or some particular timbre produced by a very specific piece of gear. My two cents anyway.

Last edited by mickey13; 27th January 2019 at 08:41 PM..
Old 27th January 2019
  #730
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickey13 View Post
I was referring to a comment made by @Synthpark and by bringing up Hartmann's credentials, my intent was to illustrate he is not some sort of complacent smart ass and even if he is, he is flexible enough to collaborate with a number of different companies and to be viewed by them as a valuable asset in designing their products. If he was some obnoxious synth primadonna, no one would give a crap about the guy. That doesn't even matter anymore, my comment stems from a misconception on my part and @Synthpark has already clarified it in a courteous manner that his claim was more of a causal hyperbole expressing his disappointment and discontent with the final design of the rack/desktop version of Kyra and wasn't an ad-hominem attack directed at anybody. Neither did he mean any harm, nor did I. Obviously, Manuel is the prime creative force behind this project, where have I stated otherwise?

I am perfectly aware of the difference between an engineer and a designer.

Except that the layout of a synth as complex as Kyra is also kind of important and constitutes one of the more significant parts of the synth itself? I get that it doesn't take a genius to design a front panel of some simple analog synth, but designing a front panel of some complex digital synth is almost always some sort of compromise, you cannot prioritize every single aspect of the machine, so you're always forced to take a number of ergonomic decisions which results in different UIs. It's not about throwing a bunch of knobs against the front panel, it's about creating a certain experience.

The flow of the programming is exceedingly important. Likewise, it's apparently not solely about the glamour if some people already take issue with the layout, is it? It is there to facilitate the process of sound creation. If the UI is confusing, people will opt for software instead. And yeah, Andromeda's UI was pretty confusing for that matter which only goes on to show how much a bad layout can prostrate a great sounding synth and become an impediment to sound design for some users. Although I like a good sounding synth, I don't give a crap about synth's paint job as long as it is built to last and sounds good, so I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

Neither is he a smart ass, nor is he a Mary Poppins of the synth world. He's made some good stuff, some bad stuff. The end. Let's move on. I'm already sick and tired of talking about this guy.
As a UI designer myself, I can tell you that there is no such thing as a project where a client hires you and says, “let me know when it’s done.” There are always issues (some technical) and different opinions. I’ve had some really dumb things forced into a product that I’m sure someone on the internet said, “that UI designer had his head up his butt,” but the truth is, some producer who has zero background in graphic or UI design made choices that marred an otherwise good design. I’m working on a game now where we’re being called on to make “new” designs for new features in a game that’s been out and in the wild for a while. There are issues with the current UI, but those aren’t even the things being addressed and we were instructed that “new UI would go into the features we’re adding and that later those designs would end up in the rest of the game.” HUGE red flag. One thing I know for sure is that a design should be cohesive, and a UI redesign should happen as a totally different project. But, the guy who’s making these requests works directly for the company who’s writing the checks.

Also, I’ve made dumb calls myself that no one’s questioned. No one is perfect. I look back at some work and think, “what the hell was I thinking?” I’ve been seduced by some new design trend that later looks dated and doesn’t really address the best way to use the product. As always, it would take quite a bit of bad UI to ruin any good product, and if the Kyra is a great sounding instrument, people will put up with blue on black buttons.
Old 27th January 2019
  #731
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djwaxxy's Avatar
great looking synth much better looking than the orginal orange/white combo this looks classy
Old 27th January 2019
  #732
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zerocrossing's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthpark View Post
nice strings but otherwise not very impressive to me (not a trance fan at all). Not sure how much better this sounds than a Virus TI2. And filter stepping ... don't remember that stepping has ever been so obvious on analog synths. Try on a simple Moog Minitaur or Slim Phatty. The Kyra is supposed to have a modelled Moog filter. Given that the architecture is quite advanced I was hoping to hear more "avantgardistic" sounds, not the usual palette. Maybe in the next demo ...
This was an issue with the Viruses as well. (Viri?) The presets and demos are almost all very trance oriented. People love that sort of thing, but for people like us, the only thing to do is to dig in and make our own sounds. I’m sure there’s possibilities in this box.

I get that they are not marketing to me, but I hope they keep in mind that there is a large contingent of people who are using software for these types of sounds, and man, that software is getting better and better. It’s one thing to sell a synth to Gearslutzers, but is that a big enough market? Maybe. As you might see, in another thread I’m basically bowled over by Dune 3, and it’s $179 (I think). It won’t do as many voices on an i7 as you could get out of the Kyra, but you’d have to work pretty hard to convince someone who’s enjoying a ITB environment to spring for one of these, and, truth be told, as good as the demos sound, I’ve not heard anything that makes me think, “Oh yeah, that trounces the Access and any software synth.” I think they should hire someone who does more experimental types of presets to make a few banks and make some new demos. Really show off that Moog style filter. A bunch of supersaw pads... well, they’ve been done to death.
Old 27th January 2019
  #733
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickey13 View Post
If modern hardware doesn't offer an intuitive interface, most people these days will turn to software because it's simply quicker and more convenient. Just saying. The rule may not apply to vintage synths, as those will be sought after for their particular flavors. I do understand that certain keyboards are loved for their particular vibe. I love the way DX7 sounds, but programming that thing would probably prove torturous, so I might as well shell out my money for something less frustrating or simply turn to software. Synths nerds love their vintage gear despite their interfaces which doesn't nullify the importance of hardware interface, bad UIs still constitute a palpable hindrance to facile sound creation. If you turn to hardware these days, it's because of tactile interaction or some particular timbre produced by a very specific piece of gear. My two cents anyway.
Sometimes there's no alternative to hardware but a crappy hardware UI isn't the end of the world; FS1r (I'd buy an FS2r in an instant even if the UI sucked just as hard) has software editors, the same is true for the PER (which also has the MEK, MED, and, PEK), and, G2 Engine (although I guess that doesn't really count).

Poor hardware UI is probably less of a problem today given that people are so comfortable using software.

There are other reasons for using hardware; quality of sound (the best of analogue still sounds much better than the closest digital approximations) and performance (hardware can be unstable for sure).
Old 27th January 2019
  #734
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EvilDragon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
(Viri?)
One "i" short. "Virii"
Old 27th January 2019
  #735
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mickey13's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by praiseallah View Post
Sometimes there's no alternative to hardware but a crappy hardware UI isn't the end of the world; FS1r (I'd buy an FS2r in an instant even if the UI sucked just as hard) has software editors, the same is true for the PER (which also has the MEK, MED, and, PEK), and, G2 Engine (although I guess that doesn't really count).

Poor hardware UI is probably less of a problem today given that people are so comfortable using software.

There are other reasons for using hardware; quality of sound (the best of analogue still sounds much better than the closest digital approximations) and performance (hardware can be unstable for sure).
Of course a bad UI isn't the end of the world, but it's kinda cool to have a comfy interface, not necessarily even a knob per function.

Software editors, yeah, I forgot about those. The reasons for using hardware you've listed are also spot on, this is why workstations and things like that are also fairly popular.
Old 27th January 2019
  #736
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mickey13's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
I think they should hire someone who does more experimental types of presets to make a few banks and make some new demos. Really show off that Moog style filter. A bunch of supersaw pads... well, they’ve been done to death.
Yeah, Richard Devine, Ben Crosland and others. I bet Kyra is capable of some wacky sounds. Waldorf should take a leaf from Behringer when it comes to promoting their products, but I'm not gonna hold my breath I'm afraid.
Old 27th January 2019
  #737
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickey13 View Post
If modern hardware doesn't offer an intuitive interface, most people these days will turn to software because it's simply quicker and more convenient. Just saying. The rule may not apply to vintage synths, as those will be sought after for their particular flavors. I do understand that certain keyboards are loved for their particular vibe. I love the way DX7 sounds, but programming that thing would probably prove torturous, so I might as well shell out my money for something less frustrating or simply turn to software. Synths nerds love their vintage gear despite their interfaces which doesn't nullify the importance of hardware interface, bad UIs still constitute a palpable hindrance to facile sound creation. If you turn to hardware these days, it's because of tactile interaction or some particular timbre produced by a very specific piece of gear. My two cents anyway.

Many people consider software first because it's cheaper. It is in no way quicker and more convenient to use. I can turn on any of my hardware synths and start playing long before any computer boots up, and then you have to launch the software-and if it's new software, you're left with clicking a mouse until you map a hardware controller to it. Now Omnisphere keeps adding new synth control templates, but you still have to own the hardware synth to take full advantage of the control that is mapped out.

Hardware synths will always be the preference if money isn't any issue-simple.
Old 27th January 2019
  #738
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Old 27th January 2019
  #739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
Many people consider software first because it's cheaper. It is in no way quicker and more convenient to use. I can turn on any of my hardware synths and start playing long before any computer boots up, and then you have to launch the software-and if it's new software, you're left with clicking a mouse until you map a hardware controller to it. Now Omnisphere keeps adding new synth control templates, but you still have to own the hardware synth to take full advantage of the control that is mapped out.

Hardware synths will always be the preference if money isn't any issue-simple.
I think he was talking specifically about hardware with terrible UIs - take the FS1r for example; you can wlrk faster and do so much more with the software editor.

Hardware is generally more immediate but can also lack a lot of conveniences such as the ability to recall an entire project in seconds.
Old 28th January 2019
  #740
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I'm done try figure this synth.

I'm out until Sonic State reviews it..;]
Old 28th January 2019
  #741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEXUS-6 View Post
I'm done try figure this synth.

I'm out until Sonic State reviews it..;]
Just think of it as the "Virus HD"
Old 28th January 2019
  #742
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psyclone001's Avatar
 

People are calling it a modern Virus but very disappointing to hear no scannable wavetables
Strange omission
Old 28th January 2019
  #743
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syntonica's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
One "i" short. "Virii"
Actually, both "viri" and "virii" are proscribed. "Viri" is the plural of "vir" (man). "Virii" is just plain bad Latin. The proper plural is "viruses".
Old 28th January 2019
  #744
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psyclone001 View Post
People are calling it a modern Virus but very disappointing to hear no scannable wavetables
Strange omission
Ti wavetables class as scannable? Afair they're single cycle and moving the index just fades them in and out iirc. They're also computed when they're loaded iirc (no storage, can't load your own custom tables)
Old 28th January 2019
  #745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by praiseallah View Post
I think he was talking specifically about hardware with terrible UIs - take the FS1r for example; you can wlrk faster and do so much more with the software editor.

Hardware is generally more immediate but can also lack a lot of conveniences such as the ability to recall an entire project in seconds.

Ok, I see what you mean now. When you say 'project' you're referring to opening a DAW project and having the VSTs, 3rd party effects, audio and MIDI sequences all ready to continue or finish before mixing down. In that way, it's definitely more convenient as long as your computer is a beast and you have your system tweaked.

For me though, I like picking out different hardware for each project and then using the chosen gear to create the instrumental, then track to a DAW for vocals and mix-down. I just find the process more enjoyable that way, and it forces me to improvise and keep things fresh every time.
Old 28th January 2019
  #746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psyclone001 View Post
People are calling it a modern Virus but very disappointing to hear no scannable wavetables
Strange omission


With the surprises Waldorf has been revealing as of late, there is a very good chance this synth will be effin' amazing, even if it doesn't offer scannable wavetables. It definitely looks like they released it to the public prematurely though, so we'll just have to wait like we did with the Big Quahuna
Old 28th January 2019
  #747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRSC View Post
With the surprises Waldorf has been revealing as of late, there is a very good chance this synth will be effin' amazing, even if it doesn't offer scannable wavetables. It definitely looks like they released it to the public prematurely though, so we'll just have to wait like we did with the Big Quahuna
Even if it doesn't at first, use of FPGA means the synth has a vast amount of room to evolve and grow new capabilities.. if they choose to keep developing it after release.
Old 28th January 2019
  #748
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psyclone001's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by praiseallah View Post
Ti wavetables class as scannable? Afair they're single cycle and moving the index just fades them in and out iirc. They're also computed when they're loaded iirc (no storage, can't load your own custom tables)
Yes TI wavetables are scannable with multiple waves per table
Old 28th January 2019
  #749
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by psyclone001 View Post
Yes TI wavetables are scannable with multiple waves per table
I am probably remembering this wrong but afair you had 2-4 single cycle waveforms per "table" which you could fade in and out with the table index. I just assumed they weren't actually scannable since I read the waveforms were generated when loaded and figured that it was amplitude modulation I was hearing.
It's been a long time do I could be completely wrong but they were very different from normal scannable wavetables.
Old 28th January 2019
  #750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wagoo View Post
Even if it doesn't at first, use of FPGA means the synth has a vast amount of room to evolve and grow new capabilities.. if they choose to keep developing it after release.
That's correct. Its like to have a general platform for the next 5 years. But what I am not sure about is whether Waldorf has the man power and who will continue. The design comes from the inventor. FPGA is hardware design and not just another programming language.
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