The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Behringer Neutron! Semi modular
Old 3rd October 2020
  #6061
Lives for gear
 
kpatz's Avatar
VCA Bias should be at zero, unless you want the synth to drone. It just opens the VCA when no other CV like the envelope is doing it.
Old 3rd October 2020 | Show parent
  #6062
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyHornBlower View Post
Maybe you should just make the two small humans part of the music - mic them up and feed them to External In
Oh, I'm already integrating them in many ways

https://soundcloud.com/seamonger/100...inter-der-maus
Old 3rd October 2020 | Show parent
  #6063
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpatz View Post
VCA Bias should be at zero, unless you want the synth to drone. It just opens the VCA when no other CV like the envelope is doing it.
Yeah, I realized that in the meantime. It did increase the overall volume with the envelope I set, so I thought it's some kind of bias between two types of VCA.

Despite the relatively simple layout and tutorials that I saw, it's yet another thing to tune those knobs yourself.

Next: shop some washers to tame the pitch knobs.
Later: fire up InDesign to work on my own overlay. The red does look much better in reality, but for an interface UX trumps looks.
Old 3rd October 2020
  #6064
Lives for gear
 
Kyle S's Avatar
 

fuzzy patch i came up with last night. filter tracking should be on.
Attached Thumbnails
Behringer Neutron! Semi modular-heavyfm_neupatch.jpg  
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6065
Gear Head
 

Has anyone tore down the Neutron and analyzed the circuit board to see what mods are possible? I'd like to be able to get a sync signal out from the sample and hold clock rate so I could trigger one or both of the envelopes and effectively have another LFO. Maybe that could be possible from the S&H LED light. Anyone have any other ideas?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6066
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby1985 View Post
Has anyone tore down the Neutron and analyzed the circuit board to see what mods are possible? I'd like to be able to get a sync signal out from the sample and hold clock rate so I could trigger one or both of the envelopes and effectively have another LFO. Maybe that could be possible from the S&H LED light. Anyone have any other ideas?
cool idea! you could check t5 (led driver) or d14 d15 for tapping that clock

couple of mods are on my webpage but more env stuff would be great
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6067
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maffez View Post
cool idea! you could check t5 (led driver) or d14 d15 for tapping that clock

couple of mods are on my webpage but more env stuff would be great
Nice! Your site is exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for. I actually wanted looping envelopes, and I thought tapping into the S&H rate would be a good enough workaround. Is there a better way to make the envelope loop?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby1985 View Post
Nice! Your site is exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for. I actually wanted looping envelopes, and I thought tapping into the S&H rate would be a good enough workaround. Is there a better way to make the envelope loop?
haven't gotten my head around them that far yet but will spend some more time with that - setup is close to mfos adsr and i think for proper looping you'd need some extras (like here: https://synth.michd.me/module/adsr-eg/)

got attack stage to loop but a-d looping would be cool

will check the s&H as trigger when i have my neutron open again
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6069
@ Kirby1985

just checked and it's really easy to get a "saw" lfo from using s&H clock as env trigger -- just wire a diode to the normal pin of sh clock in (the pin connecting to c353) on the back of the patchbay and plug this into env trigger. since it's a short clock spike, decay and release on the env work well - for proper attack stage you'd need to make a trigger to gate converter (don't think this would be handy though) - yet this way you have some looping decay envelope and can clock the lfo to be in syc with s&h too

sound demo is env from s&h clock then in second half slow lfo modulation in addition
Attached Files

SHCLOCKTRIGGERSENV.mp3 (858.0 KB, 1276 views)

Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6070
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maffez View Post
@ Kirby1985

just checked and it's really easy to get a "saw" lfo from using s&H clock as env trigger -- just wire a diode to the normal pin of sh clock in (the pin connecting to c353) on the back of the patchbay and plug this into env trigger. since it's a short clock spike, decay and release on the env work well - for proper attack stage you'd need to make a trigger to gate converter (don't think this would be handy though) - yet this way you have some looping decay envelope and can clock the lfo to be in syc with s&h too

sound demo is env from s&h clock then in second half slow lfo modulation in addition
That's really cool! I wonder if there's a way to hack the S&H itself so it outputs a square wave, and use that for the trigger. Pulse would be even better, but that's probably out of reach.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby1985 View Post
That's really cool! I wonder if there's a way to hack the S&H itself so it outputs a square wave, and use that for the trigger. Pulse would be even better, but that's probably out of reach.
guess you'd need a trg to gate converter after the trigger output - these work with (variable) set gate lengths though, which might not be so attractive for use with the adsr
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6072
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maffez View Post
guess you'd need a trg to gate converter after the trigger output - these work with (variable) set gate lengths though, which might not be so attractive for use with the adsr
I was thinking if you replaced the noise input to the S&H with a sample from the trigger itself and then sample from a zero voltage source or the inverse of the trigger on the next cycle, then you would get a square wave, right? You would need some kind of flip-flop circuit wizardry. It would be at half the frequency of the clock rate if I'm thinking correctly. I'm not an electrical engineer, so I'm not sure how hard that would be to implement.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby1985 View Post
I was thinking if you replaced the noise input to the S&H with a sample from the trigger itself and then sample from a zero voltage source or the inverse of the trigger on the next cycle, then you would get a square wave, right? You would need some kind of flip-flop circuit wizardry. It would be at half the frequency of the clock rate if I'm thinking correctly. I'm not an electrical engineer, so I'm not sure how hard that would be to implement.
me neither

I see, and yup, clever idea to turn this into square that can be used for gating; this would work but you'd lose s&h in that version - it should be possible to use the trigger for an additional shift register that flips between on/off state on each trig

maybe even easier to have an opamp comparator with inverted ins (high level out on low level in) which would make the space between clock triggers a gate

still, what i find cool about propper a-d looping envelopes is that the overal speed changes with the attack and decay settings and in the version above you'd be locked to the rhythm of the sh clock
Old 4 weeks ago
  #6074
Here for the gear
Sample/Hold as FLIP FLOP:

I had a thought that a S/H might act as a flip flop if the output is inverted and fed back to the input. Sure enough, it works. But oddly (or not) the Glide Time affects the behavior: for a short enough glide time, the output settles down to 0 volts after a few cycles. For times longer than a critical value, the output diverges until it reaches the +/- limits after a few cycles.

Next time I think I should re-learn JK flip flops again, I'll just use this. For switching between two oscillators or filters for example.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6075
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpugsley View Post
Sample/Hold as FLIP FLOP:

I had a thought that a S/H might act as a flip flop if the output is inverted and fed back to the input. Sure enough, it works. But oddly (or not) the Glide Time affects the behavior: for a short enough glide time, the output settles down to 0 volts after a few cycles. For times longer than a critical value, the output diverges until it reaches the +/- limits after a few cycles.

Next time I think I should re-learn JK flip flops again, I'll just use this. For switching between two oscillators or filters for example.
How did you connect that up? I tried doing what you said and it didn't work for me. It always converged instead of diverging no matter what I tried.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6076
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpugsley View Post
Next time I think I should re-learn JK flip flops again, I'll just use this. For switching between two oscillators or filters for example.
The simplest flip flop is the Set/Reset (SR or RS) latch, which you can make from two NAND or NOR gates. If you use CMOS 4000 series chips, you can probably find one to run directly off 10-12V, or drop the supply voltage with a diode or two in series with the Vdd pin. A silicon diode drops 0.6V, a rectifier diode tends to drop about a volt - use more than one in series to drop more.

To make an SR latch from two 2 input NAND gates, connect the output of each to one of the inputs of the other. Raising either of the free inputs flips the state, setting the corresponding output low, and the other one high.

E.g. CD4011B Quad 2-Input NAND Gate (Vdd up to 18V) https://www.ti.com/product/CD4011B

You could use that, with an inverter to feed one of the inputs, to make a primitive envelope follower, or to make a gate to loop the envelope when it falls below a certain level - set Sustain to zero, to make a looping AD envelope.

Feed the envelope to one side of the SR latch directly, and the other side via an inverter. If you use a quad 2 input NAND gate chip, you can use one of the spare gates as an inverter by tying one input to Vdd.

If you use a triple 3 input NAND gate chip, you get one extra input on each, which might be useful if you want to control it from more than one source. You then make the inverter by tying two of the inputs of that gate to Vdd. Connect any unused inputs on the other gates to Vdd too. To use an input with a switch / push button, connect it to Vdd through a 10k pull-up resistor, and connect the other side of the switch to ground.

E.g. CD4023B Triple 3-Input NAND Gate (Vdd up to 18V) https://www.ti.com/product/CD4023B

You'd probably want diodes on the gate inputs that take the envelope signal, e.g. Schottky ones which only drop 0.2-0.4V. You could try different types of diode to set different threshold voltages for the start and end of the gate signal it produces, e.g. a 0.6V drop silicon diode on the input that starts the gate signal when the envelope high enough (the one that goes directly to one side of the latch), and a 0.2-0.4V drop Schottky diode to the inverter, which flips the state when the envelope falls low enough again.

The op amp with hysteresis might be a better way to do it though, as in the link Maffez gave.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6077
Here for the gear
S&H as Flip Flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby1985 View Post
How did you connect that up? I tried doing what you said and it didn't work for me. It always converged instead of diverging no matter what I tried.
Sorry: I had to 'ping' it with a voltage to start it. So it went something like this:

S&H OUT -> INV IN

INV OUT -> SUM1 IN

(momentary CV) -> SUM1 IN

SUM1 OUT -> S&H IN

(Adjust timing of S&H GLIDE, not too short)

For a the momentary CV, I just quickly plugged a cable into a voltage source (a pushbutton would have been nice). Crude, but effective. Pinging it with a single gate would probably work; only needs to be done once, then the S&H flips state on every clock input.

Let me know if that doesn't work, and I'll re-check how I had it set up.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6078
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyHornBlower View Post
The simplest flip flop is the Set/Reset (SR or RS) latch, which you can make from two NAND or NOR gates. If you use CMOS 4000 series chips, you can probably find one to run directly off 10-12V, or drop the supply voltage with a diode or two in series with the Vdd pin. A silicon diode drops 0.6V, a rectifier diode tends to drop about a volt - use more than one in series to drop more.... (cut for brevity)
Thanks for the lesson on flip flops. Way more that I can absorb, but I WILL save it for reference!

Shame of it is: I can't now remember why I was so hot to find/re-learn/breadboard flip flops a few months ago. I think it was just to act as a binary VC switch, but I find I have some CD4066 chips (analog quad switch) which would be less trouble. Or maybe I was thinking for a clock divider, but I've been using a spare sequencer for that (plus it does /3 /7, whatever).
You mention using them for a loop-able envelope; maybe I'll give that some thought...

But a question: What is the advantage/use of a loop-able envelope over an LFO or a CV sequencer? Is it that it's not a set rate, but is self-resetting?
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6079
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpugsley View Post
Sorry: I had to 'ping' it with a voltage to start it. So it went something like this:

S&H OUT -> INV IN

INV OUT -> SUM1 IN

(momentary CV) -> SUM1 IN

SUM1 OUT -> S&H IN

(Adjust timing of S&H GLIDE, not too short)

For a the momentary CV, I just quickly plugged a cable into a voltage source (a pushbutton would have been nice). Crude, but effective. Pinging it with a single gate would probably work; only needs to be done once, then the S&H flips state on every clock input.

Let me know if that doesn't work, and I'll re-check how I had it set up.
I still wasn't able to get that to work. It still converged to a stable 0 volts over a few cycles.

Maybe because I was trying to use the mult out to get a useful control voltage out and that cannibalizes too much of the voltage??

It made a cool effect though by pitching the oscillator up and down until it came to a steady state.
Old 4 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6080
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tpugsley View Post
Thanks for the lesson on flip flops. Way more that I can absorb, but I WILL save it for reference!

Shame of it is: I can't now remember why I was so hot to find/re-learn/breadboard flip flops a few months ago. I think it was just to act as a binary VC switch, but I find I have some CD4066 chips (analog quad switch) which would be less trouble. Or maybe I was thinking for a clock divider, but I've been using a spare sequencer for that (plus it does /3 /7, whatever).
You mention using them for a loop-able envelope; maybe I'll give that some thought...

But a question: What is the advantage/use of a loop-able envelope over an LFO or a CV sequencer? Is it that it's not a set rate, but is self-resetting?
Loopable envelopes are like an LFO with more control over shape, and allow for some cool effects, especially when you modulate at audio rates. Although I would rather have a second LFO just like the LFO that already exists in the Neutron, because it's super fast.

So in a sense, looping envelopes are a good enough work around for lack of a second LFO, and triggering the second envelope is a work around for inability to loop.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6081
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by kpatz View Post
Some of the pots will act noisy. It's not a fault of the pots themselves but the way the Neutron scans them (for digitally scanned pots like wave shape), and also there's some noise in the CV out created by the DAC that gets exacerbated by moving pots such as filter cutoff when key tracking is turned on.

Which pots are acting noisy on yours?
Mine are the cutoff, osc 2 (weird wiggling efx at some mid range), LFO speed (doesn't make noise but jumps, not continuous) and distortion.
I think the pots of Neutron are not very good, I've been using them quite a lot and in less than three months just started to get these issues. I contacted Thomann (the seller) and they told me to send it to them for repair. But I'd like to repair them myself and put some good quality pots, but don't know which to use. Any suggestions?
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6082
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRCT View Post
Mine are the cutoff, osc 2 (weird wiggling efx at some mid range), LFO speed (doesn't make noise but jumps, not continuous) and distortion.
I think the pots of Neutron are not very good, I've been using them quite a lot and in less than three months just started to get these issues. I contacted Thomann (the seller) and they told me to send it to them for repair. But I'd like to repair them myself and put some good quality pots, but don't know which to use. Any suggestions?
My filter cutoff is also very noisy. Went to Thomann to repair.
They returned it saying it was normal and with a loosen screw inside.
Very frustrating!!
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6083
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRCT View Post
Mine are the cutoff, osc 2 (weird wiggling efx at some mid range), LFO speed (doesn't make noise but jumps, not continuous) and distortion.
I think the pots of Neutron are not very good, I've been using them quite a lot and in less than three months just started to get these issues. I contacted Thomann (the seller) and they told me to send it to them for repair. But I'd like to repair them myself and put some good quality pots, but don't know which to use. Any suggestions?
skywriter (check the Poly D thread) has made those pots his mission

have not replaced any in my neutron, but my model d

these fit and work well: https://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/alpha-9mm-pots-dshaft/
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6084
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby1985 View Post
I would rather have a second LFO just like the LFO that already exists in the Neutron, because it's super fast.

So in a sense, looping envelopes are a good enough work around for lack of a second LFO, and triggering the second envelope is a work around for inability to loop.
Just get a second Neutron and you'll have double of everything. They're cheap enough. I have two, it really opens up the synth and undoes most compromises.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6085
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maffez View Post
skywriter (check the Poly D thread) has made those pots his mission

have not replaced any in my neutron, but my model d

these fit and work well: https://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/alpha-9mm-pots-dshaft/
Great! Thank you very much!! By the way, I saw your modifications on the Neutron and they are great, I'll try to fix the S&H circuit on mine!

I suppose the pots are the A1M - D shaft - Alpha Vertical 9mm Potentiometer
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6086
Lives for gear
 
SkyWriter's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRCT View Post
Great! Thank you very much!! By the way, I saw your modifications on the Neutron and they are great, I'll try to fix the S&H circuit on mine!

I suppose the pots are the A1M - D shaft - Alpha Vertical 9mm Potentiometer
Yes. The Thonk stock of Taiwan ALPHA of D-shaft/T18/Solid shaft 9mm vertical mount pots are direct replacements for the type of pot Behringer is using.

If you have the skills, I definitely recommend swapping tuning and timing pots, the rest and not so necessary. The log/audio type are especially egregious, and any tuning control will benefit from the mechanical tensioner missing from Behringer pots as well. A high frequency fluid dampener fluid isn't enough.

Enjoy! I'm wicked happy with my Behringer products after re-potting. They were great before - now, better :-)
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6087
Quote:
Originally Posted by PRCT View Post
Great! Thank you very much!! By the way, I saw your modifications on the Neutron and they are great, I'll try to fix the S&H circuit on mine!

I suppose the pots are the A1M - D shaft - Alpha Vertical 9mm Potentiometer
thanks! s&H fix is easy and pays off big time
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6088
Lives for gear
 
SkyWriter's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maffez View Post
thanks! s&H fix is easy and pays off big time
I've been averaging an order a month there alone :-) it's been a great year for refits!
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #6089
Lives for gear
 
Kyle S's Avatar
 

do you guys have a source on the switching mini jacks that are in the patch bay? there is a nuetron here in town with a few busted patchbay switches.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #6090
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRCT View Post
Mine are the cutoff, osc 2 (weird wiggling efx at some mid range), LFO speed (doesn't make noise but jumps, not continuous) and distortion.
On mine it's the Drive knob that's noisy :(
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 352 views: 77467
Avatar for ardis
ardis 7th November 2018
replies: 759 views: 90820
Avatar for The Press Desk
The Press Desk 25th September 2019
replies: 279 views: 47337
Avatar for E-Irizarry
E-Irizarry 3 weeks ago
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
🖨️ Show Printable Version
✉️ Email this Page
🔍 Search thread
🎙️ View mentioned gear
Forum Jump
Forum Jump