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The UB-Xa Synthesizer Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 12th February 2018
  #1471
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^^^^^^ In a post-prologue world, I'd even say make that 16 rather than 12 (please)
Old 12th February 2018
  #1472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_Jezz View Post
^^^^^^ In a post-prologue world, I'd even say make that 16 rather than 12 (please)
I’m not saying it wouldn’t be cool to have lots of polyphony, but personally I would be more interested in having exact clone (feature wise) of the original if it helps keep the price down, rather than pay more for 16 voices.
Old 12th February 2018
  #1473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomized View Post
Is there any chance UB-Xa module could be of similar size as Neutron? As UB-Xa doesn’t have the patch bay, at least the controls should fit. If it’s much larger I’m running out of desk space soon with all these synths coming out..
That would be lovely.

I don't mind desktop boxes, I rather like and prefer most of them, but the wide variations in size from one to the next do make it a pain in the nuts sometimes.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomized View Post
I’m not saying it wouldn’t be cool to have lots of polyphony, but personally I would be more interested in having exact clone (feature wise) of the original if it helps keep the price down, rather than pay more for 16 voices.
Yes, and if the sound is good enough, you don't need 16 voices. Every oscillator is going to be a 3340 chip. OB-Xa had up to 8 note poly, so that's 16 chips. The Memorymoog had 3 per voice and was 6 note poly, that's 18 chips. I can't see Behringer stuffing 32 oscillator chips in it, and 16 3320 filter chips.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmanrock View Post
Yes, and if the sound is good enough, you don't need 16 voices. Every oscillator is going to be a 3340 chip. OB-Xa had up to 8 note poly, so that's 16 chips. The Memorymoog had 3 per voice and was 6 note poly, that's 18 chips. I can't see Behringer stuffing 32 oscillator chips in it, and 16 3320 filter chips.
Why not?
Old 13th February 2018
  #1476
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmanrock View Post
Yes, and if the sound is good enough, you don't need 16 voices. Every oscillator is going to be a 3340 chip. OB-Xa had up to 8 note poly, so that's 16 chips. The Memorymoog had 3 per voice and was 6 note poly, that's 18 chips. I can't see Behringer stuffing 32 oscillator chips in it, and 16 3320 filter chips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post
Why not?
Well, I'm sure you're kidding a little—you can think of reasons why...the target is a successful classic synth of 8 voices max, and the goal is a price that lets as many people afford it as practical.

But if you really want 16 full voices, and enough people think that's an important feature, you might want to lobby for some way of chaining two UB-Xa 8-voice synths so that one is master to 16 voices.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1477
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Arglebargle's Avatar
I want the UB-Xa to be an exact clone of the original!! ...Except for these changes that I approve of. And none of those changes that those other folks want that would destroy the magik!
Old 13th February 2018
  #1478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post
Why not?
Behringer's game is volume production. The fancier they make it, the higher the price and the fewer they can sell. People are already suggesting that the Prologue might need a price reduction. How many Modals/Codes/Sunsyns/Andomedas/Solarises/White Elephants were sold? It's in the thousands at most. Hundreds for some of them. Behringer's D and DM12 are in the 10s of thousands range. Even Uli's first post on here indicates he is not expecting it to be a big seller, but I'm sure he and the Midas guys know how to satisfy a lot of synth fans yet still make it pay.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockmanrock View Post
Behringer's game is volume production. The fancier they make it, the higher the price and the fewer they can sell. People are already suggesting that the Prologue might need a price reduction. How many Modals/Codes/Sunsyns/Andomedas/Solarises/White Elephants were sold? It's in the thousands at most. Hundreds for some of them. Behringer's D and DM12 are in the 10s of thousands range. Even Uli's first post on here indicates he is not expecting it to be a big seller, but I'm sure he and the Midas guys know how to satisfy a lot of synth fans yet still make it pay.
lets prioritize our discussion with what we want to see in an instrument first and foremost. why don't we leave our speculation for how we see production and business/economies of scale to the employees of the corporation? why do we have to try so hard?
Old 13th February 2018
  #1480
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Ive said it before and ill say it again. Just make it affordable and sound exactly like an ob-xa. Dont mess around with it and listen to these poor misguided fools.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1481
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If they make this in the eurorack format like the D and Neutron, it will be the first behringer poly in eurorack format. There is no reason to think that it wouldn't sell in large quantities. If the format is right, the UI is right, the sound is right and the price is right, they will sell.
Come on down
Old 13th February 2018
  #1482
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Yoozer's Avatar
All I wish for is that this can be a precursor to a proper JP8 clone in the same format.

I wonder if the Prophet 6 DIMM-style voice cards are patented. If they are, perhaps old style PCI connectors can be used?
Old 13th February 2018
  #1483
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kurzweil's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by earlevel View Post
Well, I'm sure you're kidding a little—you can think of reasons why...the target is a successful classic synth of 8 voices max, and the goal is a price that lets as many people afford it as practical.

But if you really want 16 full voices, and enough people think that's an important feature, you might want to lobby for some way of chaining two UB-Xa 8-voice synths so that one is master to 16 voices.
I doubt cost is an issue as the chips are made in-house, but space could be for those extra voice cards..

A replica of the keyboard version with 8 voices could be expanded by an 8-voice expander module. It may also be viable to add access to modulation options via the expansion module to gain access to additional digitally-generated modulation sources and routing destinations via panel controls that are not on the keyboard version. This would allow both an authentic 'clone' version to keep purists happy, plus a more advanced option for the others!
Old 13th February 2018
  #1484
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MarkR's Avatar
 

Jeez can we just get the basic version first
Old 13th February 2018
  #1485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR View Post
Jeez can we just get the basic version first
err no I want 100 voices at least MINIMUM it's 2018 for the love of god, 20 LFOS too. Also, a million presets.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1486
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WozNYC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt pinchin View Post

If they make this in the eurorack format like the D and Neutron, it will be the first behringer poly in eurorack format. There is no reason to think that it wouldn't sell in large quantities.
No thanks.

Eurorack is cool but I'd like this synth's panel to be comfortable and not confined to 5 inches in height.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1487
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daviddever's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanghaitang View Post
lets prioritize our discussion with what we want to see in an instrument first and foremost. why don't we leave our speculation for how we see production and business/economies of scale to the employees of the corporation? why do we have to try so hard?
For those of us who have worked in that discipline, wants are inversely proportional to production and cost constraints–so yeah, keep speculating.

And my own professional experience with offshore engineering staff (as opposed to manufacturing staff) leads me to believe that they often do not have much of a clue as to the overall market, which is one of the reasons as to why Alibaba is littered with useless trash products.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt pinchin View Post
If they make this in the eurorack format like the D and Neutron, it will be the first behringer poly in eurorack format. There is no reason to think that it wouldn't sell in large quantities. If the format is right, the UI is right, the sound is right and the price is right, they will sell.
Come on down
totally love to see this in euro with a cup holder built in and maybe wi fi so i can save patches in my google cloud .
Old 13th February 2018
  #1489
Gear Head
 

at least, there is something to learn from korg prologue launching...it's like today they indeed introduced a nice synth, but jacking up that nice synth's price will bite their ass tomorrow...cuz everything is decided by a price point..UBXA is meant to be a desktop straight clone which means a rather minimal upgrade to features and keeping UI the same...actually even Tom O in the 90-s was opposed to overloading the analog design of OBXA by excessive upgrading. If you change too much then you get an identity crisis...makes sense to concentrate on nailing the sound and keeping within economical 8 voice desktop concept.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1490
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kurzweil's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR View Post
Jeez can we just get the basic version first
Or, "A replica of the keyboard version with 8 voices"?
Old 13th February 2018
  #1491
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by puta_locura View Post
at least, there is something to learn from korg prologue launching...it's like today they indeed introduced a nice synth, but jacking up that nice synth's price will bite their ass tomorrow...cuz everything is decided by a price point..UBXA is meant to be a desktop straight clone which means a rather minimal upgrade to features and keeping UI the same...actually even Tom O in the 90-s was opposed to overloading the analog design of OBXA by excessive upgrading. If you change too much then you get an identity crisis...makes sense to concentrate on nailing the sound and keeping within economical 8 voice desktop concept.
Hi Puta Locura.

I think it needs to be said that 5 years after introducing the OB-XA Tom Oberheim introduced the Matrix 12, which is a modulation monster!

Many of the requests regarding additional modulation features could/would be introduced in software (LFO's for example) which would have no impact on the "core" sound, and would add little to nothing to the cost.

Other then price, I think the other reason why people are put off by the Korg Prologue is the limited modulation, which on a 2k synth frankly leaves me baffled (!) and is the reason I will not be buying it!! (they even removed the motion sequencer!!!!)

I think additions could be made while retaining the OB-XA magical sound, and keeping the UI intuitive. Though I would agree it should not be at the cost of the SOUND! If the sound is right, whats wrong with making a classic a little better?

I also agree with you that the 8 voice is the "sweet spot". I would also be happy with a 6 Voice. Extra voice chips means extra cost.....

All the best.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1492
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kurzweil View Post
I doubt cost is an issue as the chips are made in-house, but space could be for those extra voice cards..

A replica of the keyboard version with 8 voices could be expanded by an 8-voice expander module. It may also be viable to add access to modulation options via the expansion module to gain access to additional digitally-generated modulation sources and routing destinations via panel controls that are not on the keyboard version. This would allow both an authentic 'clone' version to keep purists happy, plus a more advanced option for the others!
Doubling the voice component count would certainly have a significant impact on cost. The chips are far from free to make in-house (the biggest advantage to Behringer making their own is availability), double the support components, board real estate—not double the price for the synth because it's still one front panel, CPU, memory, etc., but it would be a sizeable premium. Then many people who are perfectly fine with 8 voices (most people—I don't recall many people in the '80s saying, "gee I love the 'Xa, but really wish it had 16 voices) will find themselves priced out.

The expander idea is not so bad, because then people could choose, but it makes little business sense for Behringer. A small fraction of those buying the 'Xa would add the expander, at best. Like I said before, if it's that important I think your best bet is to lobby for chaining. I'm not asking for that feature personally—I have an OB-8, and have never once felt it was a shortcoming to not have 16 voices. When I had a Prophet 5 before it, yes, I wanted a few more voices.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1493
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abient Boy View Post
Hi Puta Locura.

I think it needs to be said that 5 years after introducing the OB-XA Tom Oberheim introduced the Matrix 12, which is a modulation monster!

Many of the requests regarding additional modulation features could/would be introduced in software (LFO's for example) which would have no impact on the "core" sound, and would add little to nothing to the cost.

Other then price, I think the other reason why people are put off by the Korg Prologue is the limited modulation, which on a 2k synth frankly leaves me baffled (!) and is the reason I will not be buying it!! (they even removed the motion sequencer!!!!)

I think additions could be made while retaining the OB-XA magical sound, and keeping the UI intuitive. Though I would agree it should not be at the cost of the SOUND! If the sound is right, whats wrong with making a classic a little better?

I also agree with you that the 8 voice is the "sweet spot". I would also be happy with a 6 Voice. Extra voice chips means extra cost.....

All the best.
I do think Tom was totally happy with power of Matrix-12, it's just that he didn't envision to turn any sort of hypothetical upgraded OBXA units into matrix-12. I think he views matrix-12 and obxa as completely different projects. He seemed to like raw power of OBXA just the way it was made in the 80-s and he even said so in some interviews. On the other hand, Page 2 function from OB-8 actually fits perfectly for an OBXA upgrade because it doesn't influence the overall character of sound or UI. It seems, if designers ever go overboard and try to turn OBXa into an Xpander, then they will have no OBXA clone at all as a result but something entirely different.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1494
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ZT Scheer's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abient Boy View Post
... I also agree with you that the 8 voice is the "sweet spot". I would also be happy with a 6 Voice. ...
Many incorrectly assume that "more is better" regarding polyphony. There are parts you cannot actually play "correctly" if you have more than about 8 voices. There are some cases where having more than 6 voices is problematic. I discovered this for myself while attempting to play the "Bette Davis Eyes" riff on a Roland D-50 many years ago. Achieving a convincing-enough version of the original Prophet-5 patch was not an issue, but the lack of note-stealing turned the whole thing to mush. This is not the only case where "limited" polyphony is a necessary musical component. I very much wish that every rompler had a "guitar-mode", limiting to 6-notes, for instance.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1495
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It would be amazing if the UBXa had the same degree of CV integration that the Oberheim Expander vintage module does, with individual CV/Gate per voice, and individual audio outs per voice.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1496
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RunnyKine View Post
It would be amazing if the UBXa had the same degree of CV integration that the Oberheim Expander vintage module does, with individual CV/Gate per voice, and individual audio outs per voice.
It also makes the product more expensive because you're essentially piping all those CVs into an individual analog-digital converter each, plus 5v+ tolerant digital input for the gate, plus per voice op-amp strong enough to drive an exposed output, plus all the connectors required per channel and needing an enclosure large enough.
Old 13th February 2018
  #1497
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Certainly.

Still much less expensive than either of the originals, I'd wager.

But yes, no feature is free. And this set of features is exceptionally rare, and just something I'd like to see more of. And since everyone is making suggestions...
Old 13th February 2018
  #1498
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kurzweil's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by earlevel View Post
The expander idea is not so bad, because then people could choose, but it makes little business sense for Behringer. A small fraction of those buying the 'Xa would add the expander, at best. Like I said before, if it's that important I think your best bet is to lobby for chaining. I'm not asking for that feature personally—I have an OB-8, and have never once felt it was a shortcoming to not have 16 voices. When I had a Prophet 5 before it, yes, I wanted a few more voices.
Yes, I understand. I'm going to continue to play 'fantasy football' and ignore the business implications, but I take your point completely.

I'm speculating that some additional digital modulation access points could be built into the design of the basic voice card and then accessed (if necessary) from a separate unit if the objective is to keep the project as pure to the original as possible. Maybe that separate unit could just be a small add-on box with some additional controls to access the 'hidden' software functions, for example. In my view this would kill two birds with one stone: a clone with the potential to add some 21st century sound design options.

I can't stop imagining what it would sound like to modulate PW, pitch, and filter with different LFOs, or use the voice number to modulate parameters to create wild offsets between voices when playing chords, etc, etc.
Old 14th February 2018
  #1499
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Heinakroon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurzweil View Post
Yes, I understand. I'm going to continue to play 'fantasy football' and ignore the business implications, but I take your point completely.

I'm speculating that some additional digital modulation access points could be built into the design of the basic voice card and then accessed (if necessary) from a separate unit if the objective is to keep the project as pure to the original as possible. Maybe that separate unit could just be a small add-on box with some additional controls to access the 'hidden' software functions, for example. In my view this would kill two birds with one stone: a clone with the potential to add some 21st century sound design options.

I can't stop imagining what it would sound like to modulate PW, pitch, and filter with different LFOs, or use the voice number to modulate parameters to create wild offsets between voices when playing chords, etc, etc.
If all the pots will receive MIDI we can still modulate each PW, pitch etc separately with external LFOs or envelopes.
Old 14th February 2018
  #1500
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kurzweil View Post
Yes, I understand. I'm going to continue to play 'fantasy football' and ignore the business implications, but I take your point completely.

I'm speculating that some additional digital modulation access points could be built into the design of the basic voice card and then accessed (if necessary) from a separate unit if the objective is to keep the project as pure to the original as possible. Maybe that separate unit could just be a small add-on box with some additional controls to access the 'hidden' software functions, for example. In my view this would kill two birds with one stone: a clone with the potential to add some 21st century sound design options.

I can't stop imagining what it would sound like to modulate PW, pitch, and filter with different LFOs, or use the voice number to modulate parameters to create wild offsets between voices when playing chords, etc, etc.
Dude, that's not an OB-XA reissue, that's more like an ESQ-1 reissue no? Or maybe a Matrix 12 reissue, which would actually make sense for Behringer.

"Digital modulation access points" in my mind sounds like an avenue for tons of OS bugs and synths shipping late, and it's how you end up with something like the Hartmann neuron. Sorry but that's my professional experience
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