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The UB-Xa Synthesizer
Old 30th August 2020
  #8941
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Coorec's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by infindebula View Post
Yes, Pete. Digital envelopes on an OB-Xa could be acceptable, in theory. Or Behringer could have just gone with the real deal.
I for one am interested in vintage sound, not in vintage tech.

What else is in your so called real deal? Tape memory, CV/Gate and Sync to tape?
Old 30th August 2020
  #8942
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becks bolero's Avatar
I am curious to see if B adds some more filter options, if they build it like the original using separate 2 pole and 4 pole filters
Old 31st August 2020
  #8943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coorec View Post
I for one am interested in vintage sound, not in vintage tech.

What else is in your so called real deal? Tape memory, CV/Gate and Sync to tape?
That’s a reasonable question. But none of those examples have anything to do with the sound of the synth. Envelopes actually do.

I’m in the group of people that sincerely hopes Behringer nails down the character of the original CEM3310 envelopes, regardless of the technology they use. As I said, there is no reason why it shouldn’t be possible.

Unfortunately, as far as I know, nobody has really done it yet, and Behringer has a less-than-spotless record when it comes to their first-release firmware.

It is true that they have come very close with the Pro-1 (three releases later), and we will see how well that works in an OB-Xa context (where both envelopes’ times vary somewhat from one voice to the next - a big part of the vintage OB sound).

As has been mentioned before, DSI’s “slop” control doesn’t really do a good job of simulating voice tuning variances, and who knows whether the same principle applied to envelopes would be similarly ineffective.

That’s why I say they could have, not necessarily should have, gone with “the real deal”.

I know I would not bet money that they’ll get it right in UB-Xa version 1.0.
Old 31st August 2020
  #8944
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SkyWriter's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 View Post
There's nothing wrong with digital envelopes, when implemented well. They got a bad reputation in the 80s because the processors were underpowered. But a completely snappy (and very flexible: slope, steps, etc.) envelope can be implemented in software these days.

One of my favorite envelope generators is the STG Soundlabs one that I have in my MU module, and that is digitally-generated.

http://stgsoundlabs.com/products/env...nerator_mu.htm

His Eurorack version (which loops) runs fast enough that he often demonstrated it as an oscillator

IIRC, the Moog One uses digital envelopes as well, and those are pretty flexible, and quite snappy.

Pete
True, you only need ms update rates to provide sub-audio modulation rates (quite literally!) which is easy to achieve on todays processors. Back in the 1mhz Z80 days a processor also burdened with checking and comparing every knob, switch, dial, keystroke, and MIDI interrupt, AND produce isochronous updates to all the envelopes and LFO's? Yeah, I would pick slower updates too.

FWIW: did an experiment the other day measuring 'snappiness' (posted results on MF if anyone's interested). The perceptive transition between a 'snappy' sound and a 'fwooshy'* one occurs at 3ms. This is subtly influenced by what comes immediately afterward; length and relative strength of sustain, decay time, Release time. So these were for some of the shortest of total sounds length: 7ms.

So, any slower than 3ms attack is not going to sound 'snappy'.

*-sorry to get technical on yall.
Old 31st August 2020
  #8945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWriter View Post
did an experiment the other day measuring 'snappiness' (posted results on MF if anyone's interested).
What's MF?

Got a link?
Old 31st August 2020
  #8946
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SkyWriter's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by infindebula View Post
What's MF?

Got a link?
Sorry, did check spelling MW

https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/vi...37959#p3337959
Old 1st September 2020
  #8947
Gear Addict
Given up regularly following progress now; will just wait until it comes out or there is some major news.

I just realised that over the last 5 years, until this year, pretty much everything I bought, music-gear wise, was either analog or analog-hybrid (Peak/Rocket) literally everything I have bought THIS year has NOT been analogue 1) Argon8 2) Keith McMillen Pro 4 Board 3)Mooer Ocean Machine 4) Elektron Model: Cycles 5) Yamaha MODX7, due to there being nothing new all year on the analogue scene that I want.

Other than buying stuff that I don't really need that won't add anything much sonically: Pro One, Cat, Wasp - everything else analog has either failed to materialise (every Behringer poly ever announced since the DM12), is bugged (MFB Synth Pro) or is really, really expensive 008/Udo 6/OB6/P6/Moog One/Deckard's, etc...


Actually really impressed by the MODX7 (which got on Saturday) - its got its own 8 operator FM synth engine, but is fully backwardly compatible with the DX7 patches, can, apparently play 16 DX7 patches simultaneously - has 1000s of sampled pianos, organs, EPs etc. Apparently, the Bosendorfer piano download is one of the best grand piano emulations, period (according to Woody piano shack anyway).
I don't know why people keep saying they are waiting for a DX7 re-issue - this is it - plus a shed load of other stuff - same price as Digitone Keys, but FAR more powerful (FM or otherwise), more keys, better form factor, DX7 compatible, etc...

I didn't know it existed (in terms of being a DX-7 but with more operators) until recently, as I just passed it off as one of those uncool Montage/Motif things for lift muzak, Butlins/Pontins, local pub covers band style players...NOTE: Its not just an FM patch "player", it is a fully programmable 8 Op Yamaha FM synthesizer...

Why is this relevant?, well I blew my UB-Xa budget on something radically different and am actually glad I did - and unless the UB-Xa suddenly appears out of thin air in the next two months, it won't affect me and I'll still get one when it launches.
Also, it does the whole DX-7 shebang, bar atftertouch, which was a synth from the same era as the OB-Xa.

Anyway, the Prologue willl have to stay my only full sized VCO poly UNTIL UB-Xa or something else - affordable - Behringer or otherwise, comes out.
Actually used the P8 yesterday - can sound phat and retro or digital and modern - should have bought the 16 really - my bad.

Anyways, regarding UB-Xa - I predict we don't hear anything until Nov, then Behringer will make a sort of cheesy release demo thing with Michael or Patrick (I forget which one they sacked) dressed in tiger striped trousers, wearing a poodle hair wig playing "Jump", but with all the notes slightly re-arranged to avoid a lawsuit...


I also reckon its going to be £1,099 and lastly I reckon most of us wont be able to get one until around March 2021...
Old 11th September 2020
  #8948
Gear Nut
 

I'm not sure why Oberheim used 2 CEM3320 per voice , It's pretty wasteful. Audibly the same as tapping into the 2nd pole of a '4 pole' 3320, you can get 1,2,3 and 4 pole output from one cem3320 chip simultaneously since its made up of 4 discrete and identical filter ''blocks'' connected in series.
One small functional difference is the need to switch the resonance path aswell as the outputs with 1 cem3320 chip for 2 or 4 pole output, vs only needing to switch the output with 2 chips.
It would also allow 2 pole and 4 pole to have a few things tuned indepedently (e.g adjusting cutoff range, resonance ) but this sort of thing could be digitally controlled with 1 chip which is far easier now than back then
There could be other differences, if anyone else has any ideas or knows the actual reasons for using 2 chips.

For Behringer to copy that design choice when they are aiming for or at least expected to aim for maximum affordability doesnt make sense even if they produce the things themselves, also there are a few external components needed along with 3320 chip.
Old 11th September 2020
  #8949
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DesolationBlvd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuFX View Post
I'm not sure why Oberheim used 2 CEM3320 per voice , It's pretty wasteful. Audibly the same as tapping into the 2nd pole of a '4 pole' 3320, you can get 1,2,3 and 4 pole output from one cem3320 chip simultaneously since its made up of 4 discrete and identical filter ''blocks'' connected in series.
The OB-Xa 2-pole mode took the OTAs inside the CEM3320 and configured them as a state variable filter (though only using the low pass output). Definitely not the same sound as just tapping the second pole of the 4-pole cascade.
Old 11th September 2020
  #8950
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DesolationBlvd View Post
The OB-Xa 2-pole mode took the OTAs inside the CEM3320 and configured them as a state variable filter (though only using the low pass output). Definitely not the same sound as just tapping the second pole of the 4-pole cascade.
You'll have to explain that in more detail cause it's not making sense to me.

State variable... so a 2 pole HP and 2 pole LP, allowing HP, BP and LP filtering, but only using LP section? can't think of a single reason for that and would still sound no different to a tapped 2 pole from 4 pole.
Old 11th September 2020
  #8951
vlz
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vlz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuFX View Post
You'll have to explain that in more detail cause it's not making sense to me.

State variable... so a 2 pole HP and 2 pole LP, allowing HP, BP and LP filtering, but only using LP section? can't think of a single reason for that and would still sound no different to a tapped 2 pole from 4 pole.
There's something here on the subject

https://electricdruid.net/cem3320-filter-designs/

(posted earlier in the thread)
Old 12th September 2020
  #8952
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SkyWriter's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
There's something here on the subject

https://electricdruid.net/cem3320-filter-designs/

(posted earlier in the thread)
Ah, I think I see how the lissajous figures I used to make as a kid work now with a PAIA 4730. It was an SVF. The crazy phase shift between outputs made these 3d curly-cues on an XY scope.

Last edited by SkyWriter; 12th September 2020 at 03:30 PM..
Old 12th September 2020
  #8953
Gear Nut
 

Ok, that circuit is different . Still clueless why they did this, does it really sound much/different better? couldn't find a good demo that compares it to the 4 pole.
Missed oppurtunity for Behringer not to incorporate the other missing filter modes into Ubxa, the Boog HP mode was a very useful addition and sounds great.
Old 12th September 2020
  #8954
vlz
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vlz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuFX View Post
Ok, that circuit is different . Still clueless why they did this, does it really sound much/different better? couldn't find a good demo that compares it to the 4 pole.
Missed oppurtunity for Behringer not to incorporate the other missing filter modes into Ubxa, the Boog HP mode was a very useful addition and sounds great.
It's different because it is a state variable filter, which is a different topology with particular characteristics, whereas the 4 pole LP is a cascade of identical first order sections with a resonance feedback path (like the original ladder filter). Sounds different (not only because it's second order)

Here's an interesting read

https://northcoastsynthesis.com/news...iable-filters/
Old 12th September 2020
  #8955
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
It's different because it is a state variable filter, which is a different topology with particular characteristics, whereas the 4 pole LP is a cascade of identical first order sections with a resonance feedback path (like the original ladder filter). Sounds different (not only because it's second order)

Here's an interesting read

https://northcoastsynthesis.com/news...iable-filters/
I see, state variable and multimode are not the same like I was assuming
Old 12th September 2020
  #8956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuFX View Post
Still clueless why they did this, does it really sound much/different better? couldn't find a good demo that compares it to the 4 pole.
“Better” is of course subjective, but a ladder filter definitely sounds different from a state variable filter. Im pretty sure they would have done it this way because the state variable filter sounds more like a SEM or an OB-X, while the CEM 4-pole mode will sound more like a Prophet.
Old 20th September 2020
  #8957
vlz
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vlz's Avatar
While we wait for further news, here's an interesting, somewhat related, read

https://amsynths.co.uk/2020/06/21/ob...eplica-part-i/
Old 20th September 2020
  #8958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
While we wait for further news, here's an interesting, somewhat related, read

https://amsynths.co.uk/2020/06/21/ob...eplica-part-i/
I wonder if Rob Keeble will link up with Behringer again to do this ?
Old 20th September 2020
  #8959
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Polymooger's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
While we wait for further news, here's an interesting, somewhat related, read

https://amsynths.co.uk/2020/06/21/ob...eplica-part-i/
Surely the chap on here who worked for Oberheim around the time of the OB8 (and whose nick escapes my aged brain atm - sorry) would be able to say something about this?
Old 20th September 2020
  #8960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymooger View Post
Surely the chap on here who worked for Oberheim around the time of the OB8 (and whose nick escapes my aged brain atm - sorry) would be able to say something about this?
I didn't even know about this, Certainly would be interesting to hear more about it and if any were ever built and working.
Old 20th September 2020
  #8961
vlz
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vlz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymooger View Post
Surely the chap on here who worked for Oberheim around the time of the OB8 (and whose nick escapes my aged brain atm - sorry) would be able to say something about this?
That was exactly my thoughts when reading this, but as with yourself, I can't for the life of me remember his name.
Old 20th September 2020
  #8962
vlz
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vlz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryankraft View Post
I wonder if Rob Keeble will link up with Behringer again to do this ?
Interestingly, Rob is working on a P600 refurb, which intersects the other Behringer project.

https://amsynths.co.uk/2020/06/27/pr...refurb-part-1/
Old 20th September 2020
  #8963
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Polymooger's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by vlz View Post
That was exactly my thoughts when reading this, but as with yourself, I can't for the life of me remember his name.
Got it - @ earlevel
Old 20th September 2020
  #8964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymooger View Post
Got it - @ earlevel
https://www.earlevel.com/main/
Old 20th September 2020
  #8965
vlz
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vlz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Palmer View Post
Great, I left a comment on the blog, hopefully it'll help.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8966
Gear Addict
Just seen on FB apparently now Behringer have applied to buy the full Oberheim instrument name and branding so probably will be selling the "UB-XA" as an Oberheim OB-XA after all...the article speculated on whether Behringer, out of the kindness of their hearts, might or might not choose to give some money to Tom...


https://audionewsroom.net/2020/09/be...trademark.html
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8967
Lives for gear
B have euroracked their pedals
im still waiting for the BEmulator
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8968
vlz
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vlz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeGee View Post
Just seen on FB apparently now Behringer have applied to buy the full Oberheim instrument name and branding so probably will be selling the "UB-XA" as an Oberheim OB-XA after all...the article speculated on whether Behringer, out of the kindness of their hearts, might or might not choose to give some money to Tom...


https://audionewsroom.net/2020/09/be...trademark.html
Cue hate posts in 1, 2, 3...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8969
vlz
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vlz's Avatar
Well, it didn't take long for a whole thread to be created for the purpose

Bheringer applies for Oberheim trademark

I hope it's moan-zone bound.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #8970
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shabbyroad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeeGee View Post
Just seen on FB apparently now Behringer have applied to buy the full Oberheim instrument name and branding so probably will be selling the "UB-XA" as an Oberheim OB-XA after all...the article speculated on whether Behringer, out of the kindness of their hearts, might or might not choose to give some money to Tom...


https://audionewsroom.net/2020/09/be...trademark.html
Not applied to “buy”. To “take” / “claim” / “register}

Stay classy Uli

It won’t attract me to buying the clone they’re working on and I don’t know anyone who would be.
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