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Yamaha TG77 - woah!
Old 26th November 2020 | Show parent
  #211
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Guys, I just want to be sure these artifacts are because of the lookup table
Here's a file , 1:1 ratio mod-carrier played at c to g 1 , full modulation index
Is this normal ?
Attached Files

tg2.wav (1.71 MB, 882 views)


Last edited by gentleclockdivid; 26th November 2020 at 02:36 PM..
Old 26th November 2020
  #212
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hey guys and girls and I am starting to expect I might have dody unit , I've read about the display making a annoying whiz sound , but in my case it also available at the outputs , stereo outs and headphones

It's the exact same frequency that is emitted by the unit itself
Here's a recording , I had to turn up the unit's output volume to max and input recording to max to actually hear/capture it
Is something I will just have to live with ?
Attached Files

dispay noise at outputs.wav (1.43 MB, 849 views)

Old 26th November 2020 | Show parent
  #213
Gear Addict
 
nvhladek's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
Hey guys and girls and I am starting to expect I might have dody unit , I've read about the display making a annoying whiz sound , but in my case it also available at the outputs , stereo outs and headphones

It's the exact same frequency that is emitted by the unit itself
Here's a recording , I had to turn up the unit's output volume to max and input recording to max to actually hear/capture it
Is something I will just have to live with ?
Did you replace the backlight or the LCD unit altogether? As far as I recall, the backlight was out on my unit when I bought it, and it affected the outputs as well
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #214
Lives for gear
 
gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Haven't replaced it yet.


It took a while to get my head around the operator feedback routings , assumming it would automatically establish a feedback connection but this is not the case .
It is essentially a direct connection to the operator's ( user secondary input ) ,altouh this highly depends on the chosen algoritm.
Take for example an algoritm op3 into op2 into op1 (op 1 = carrier ) , just 1 tower
If op3 is selected as a feedback loop and assigned to the secondary input of op1 , it's just another unidirectional connection from 3 to 1 ( pretty powerfull given the serial tower )
In order to create feedback , we need another feedback assignment , selecting op1 , and route this back to 3 , we now have feedback between op1 and 3 , and op 2 can be totally muted for this to work
Even simpler would be to take op1 as the only feedback connection and route it back to op3 , in this case op 2 has to be enabled
Unbelievable powerfull stuff

Last edited by gentleclockdivid; 27th November 2020 at 02:38 AM..
Old 27th November 2020
  #215
Gear Guru
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Yeah it was very powerful for the time... I mean these days you get a 6x6 matrix in plugins that let you do ANY algo whatsoever... or 8x8 in Tranzistow.
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #216
Moderator
 
Don Solaris's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
Haven't replaced it yet.
If you don't want to sponsor greedy resellers, you can do it yourself for less than $50. There are actually two options.

The Newhaven display which needs one resistor ($0.05), move a couple of diodes to the back and you're set. 15 minutes of work, really not a rocket science:
http://www.xfactory-librarians.co.uk...ay_Upgrade.pdf

The other option is JHD732-24064C display which is what many resellers use. It is easy to recognize these replacement displays. They come with just a strip cable and no power cable. The power is taken from the logic power supply line. And the value of the provided current limiter on the board is simply too small. Unfortunately some resellers are not aware that LED technology has changed a bit, and the existing voltage is a bit too much to drive that background LED element, meaning it live too short, which is a pity as after a few years you will have to replace it again. Luckily, this is even easier to solve, in fact you can pimp it to your liking as I did and tame it down all the way to navy blue:
Yamaha SY-77 TG-77 backlight LED modification
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #217
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Yeah it was very powerful for the time... I mean these days you get a 6x6 matrix in plugins that let you do ANY algo whatsoever... or 8x8 in Tranzistow.
True to that , tranzistow fm engine is bonkers...
Old 27th November 2020
  #218
Lives for gear
 
gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Anyone else have a note attached to the tg 77 , with the jump to page number ?
Makes navigating so much easier , instead of constantly using the exit button
Old 27th November 2020
  #219
Lives for gear
 
gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Seriously could someone just answer if these artifacts are normal , I used an operator as a waveshaper in between set to roughly 0.3 Hz
I just want to know if it's either becasue of the ancient lookup table tech or not
p.s. I am aware I can Low pass filter it .
Attached Files

tg bass.wav (6.30 MB, 761 views)


Last edited by gentleclockdivid; 27th November 2020 at 06:20 PM..
Old 27th November 2020
  #220
Gear Guru
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Yeah that sounds plausible to me.
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #221
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
Seriously could someone just answer if these artifacts are normal , I used an operator as a waveshaper in between set to roughly 0.3 Hz
I just want to know if it's either becasue of the ancient lookup table tech or not
I'm not sure what you're referring to?

There are two things I'm hearing:
  • If you use a harmonically complex waveform as a modulator and have the output level high enough then the result will tend towards noise.
  • It sounds like you've got the release rate of an envelope set to maximum. The envelopes on the SY/TG77 are very fast (they'll go up to audio frequencies if you loop them) so you'll get clicks when they cut off the low frequency sine wave.
Note that I'm listening on laptop speakers so I may be missing something.
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #222
Lives for gear
 
gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanC3 View Post
I'm not sure what you're referring to?

There are two things I'm hearing:
  • If you use a harmonically complex waveform as a modulator and have the output level high enough then the result will tend towards noise.
  • It sounds like you've got the release rate of an envelope set to maximum. The envelopes on the SY/TG77 are very fast (they'll go up to audio frequencies if you loop them) so you'll get clicks when they cut off the low frequency sine wave.
Note that I'm listening on laptop speakers so I may be missing something.
I do know how to program fm , mostly on nord modular , and newer yamaha
The fast decaying envelopes is op3 output into op2 ( fixed at 0.4 Hz ) ) for giving that distinct transient and reso sound ,and a tad bit of self feedback for op 3 , carrier is just sine ratio 1
I used two towers , same procedure , where Γ‘s in the second tower the modulator is set to ratio 2 for a squarish sound and some phase ofset
I am talking about the same issues I posted above , even when single operators are at a low frequency .
Or just modulating an operator with a fixed low freq. op , iow low hertz operators always reproduce artifacts
This dinstinct low resolution noise ( which some people adore ) , creeping in at 4 Khz etc...
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #223
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
I do know how to program fm
Apologies for stating the obvious. It's just that when people get their hands on one of these synths for the first time and try RCM (the usual culprit for producing a harmonically rich waveform) they always seem to max out the modulation and then complain it sounds harsh / noisy.

With the caveat that I was listening on laptop speakers, I wasn't hearing anything I wouldn't have expected.
Old 27th November 2020 | Show parent
  #224
Lives for gear
 
gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I am talking about the noise artifacts that occur when playing low frequencies , you need a good monitoring system or headphones , see first post on this page
Where is acreil when you need him

Last edited by gentleclockdivid; 27th November 2020 at 11:19 PM..
Old 28th November 2020 | Show parent
  #225
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grasspike's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
I am talking about the noise artifacts that occur when playing low frequencies , you need a good monitoring system or headphones , see first post on this page
Where is acreil when you need him
From what I hear and what I have read you talking about you have a perfectly normal TG77. Both of mine have the same "artifacts", aliasing, or whatever you want to call it

It's just part of the charm of 1989 technology on a synth being pushed farther than anything else before it.
Old 29th November 2020
  #226
Lives for gear
 
gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Just when I thought that this machine couldn't get any deeper , awm as fm sources etc...all pretty great stuff ..until
The whole AFM output can be selected as an AWM input ( choose afm in waveset )
This way you can filter the afm output independently and re-use it as a modulator for ultra feedback mayhem , and creating resonant filter without using resonance
Here is a simple example , afm/awm
Element 1 = afm is just one operator and the external source is awm ( level 7 )
Element 2 = awm , waveset is set to afm , and low pass filter sweep ( no resonance ) , the final result is a resonant filter because of the filtered feedback .
It sounds a bit crappy but cool nonetheless



I am blown away


p.s. about the artifacts , I don't care anymore ..this machine is so alive and mesmerizing ,an absolute keeper
Attached Files

aaa.wav (5.31 MB, 597 views)


Last edited by gentleclockdivid; 29th November 2020 at 02:38 AM..
Old 29th November 2020 | Show parent
  #227
AB3
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I have bought and sold an SY77 probably about three times. The current one is staying. I wish they would reissue these units with perhaps more memory, but basically, the same sound. Oh - and a lower noise floor and better lights.
Old 29th November 2020 | Show parent
  #228
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Am I missing something , but there does not seem to be a 1AFM/1AWM mono mode
Old 30th November 2020
  #229
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robotunes's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
There's a mode with 2 FM and 2 AWM. How about using only one of each?
Old 7th December 2020 | Show parent
  #230
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I found out something
Depending on the algoritm , the output of the modulator and carriers are scaled .
Take for example algoritm 45 , all operators are parallel and now have a decreased output gain .
Now enable just one operator and set feedback to itself , at the maximum amount this should result in saw turning into noise , but in this case it stays a fairly faint saw which will never collapse into noise
Even when operator output velocity and gain is set to max ,this is because of the volume scaling and overall reduced operator output resulting in a weaker feedback loop .
Sadly we can't choose the same operator more then once for self feedback ,which should rremedy this
Not the case on the dx7 when you take algo 32 on the dx7 and apply self feedback to operator 6 it will still collapse into noise

O.k so algo 45 ( or any algo that has more carriers ) is scaling carrier outputs which result is less pronounced feedback .
Seems also to be case with the dx7 ( and not dexed , where carrier outputs are the same volume regardless of algoritm )
tg 77 example

Algo 45 , only operator 1 is enabled , feedback to itself , increasing feedback will turn into saw
https://app.box.com/s/v1s39tbpc11y3fizwya0tr1gmo9z5obf

Second example , algo nr 2 , again only operator 1 is enabled , gradually increasing feedback into itself ..
https://app.box.com/s/b44kfer23ohap35c9qbok66ggluclz2f

Damn , the 2-p filter in series ( 4 pole ) sounds pretty damn good considering it's from 1989.
There is actually non linear behaviour with high resonance
Attached Files

4pole.wav (8.75 MB, 352 views)

Old 7th December 2020 | Show parent
  #231
Lives for gear
 
gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotunes View Post
There's a mode with 2 FM and 2 AWM. How about using only one of each?
I mean a mono mode like you have with the different afm configurations .
For playing legato mode and and only note polyphony .
As soon as anm awm is part of the config. it all seems to be poly , no matter if it's afm+awm or afm*2+awm*2
Old 8th December 2020
  #232
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Just opened up my unit , could it be from 1996 ?
Old 8th December 2020 | Show parent
  #233
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abruzzi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Hard to tell, but that could be a zero. Some computer fonts had a dot in the middle of the zero to differentiate between that and the capital O. But its hard to see in the photo.
Old 8th December 2020
  #234
Gear Guru
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
1990.
Old 8th December 2020 | Show parent
  #235
Lives for gear
 
gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Good catch guys !
Still wondering how long the tg 77 was in production
Old 8th December 2020 | Show parent
  #236
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JPogo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
Good catch guys !
Still wondering how long the tg 77 was in production
Don't know how reliable vintage synth is, but this is from their site:

"Date Produced - SY77: 1989, TG77: 1990"
Old 8th December 2020 | Show parent
  #237
Lives for gear
 
gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yes , I am aware when these were released , but there is no info about
the duration of the production run , iow when it stopped.
Old 8th December 2020 | Show parent
  #238
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grasspike's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
Yes , I am aware when these were released , but there is no info about
the duration of the production run , iow when it stopped.
The SY99 came out in 1991 that marked the end of the road for both the SY77 and the TG77. There was still stock of both floating around you could find in shops if you looked hard enough

By 1992 Yamaha pretty much gave up on FM in favor of pure Romplers like the SY85 and TG500

In 1998 they tried FM again with the FS1R and later DX200 and the DX PLG expansion cards for things like the Motif
Old 8th December 2020 | Show parent
  #239
Lives for gear
 
gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
o.k. didn't know the tg77 production ended when sy99 was released .
Since it's the only rack version , it could have been released for a couple more years .
Good to know
Old 4 weeks ago
  #240
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Still lusting for one. Is there an editor for Win7? Not keen on editing from the hw.
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