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Reface dx feedback question
Old 21st September 2017
  #1
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Reface dx feedback question

I' am wondering about the reface dx feedback amount .
I know that the new feedback system allows for +/-feedback and that these are NOT modulatable and NOT affected by the operator envelope.

But what about original feedback routings , where the amount of feedback is affected by the operators envelopes ( like any other fm synth ).
SO we could go from saw ( full feedback ) to sine ...because of a decaying envelope
The envelope modulates the operators output AND feedback amount .
Is this the case on the reface dx ?

If the new feedback per operator is the only feedback system possible , we can't do this .

So summary , are they any algoritms available that allow the original dx feedback routings ?

I know the montage does't allow this either , but it does have the original operator routing where feedback IS affected by the envelope stage.
Old 21st September 2017
  #2
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Funny.
I commented on the yamaha forum , the moderator assumed a saw wave is only possible with 2 operators .
And thhusfeedback can not be controlled
The guy deleted my post .
Old 21st September 2017
  #3
Kja
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Each operator has a feedback envelop besides the regular four envelopes.
Old 21st September 2017 | Show parent
  #4
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abruzzi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
Each operator has a feedback envelop besides the regular four envelopes.
I don't think thats true, unless there was an OS update that I haven't applied. My reface DX has exactly 5 envelopes--one amplitude envelope for each operator and one pitch envelope that can affect multiple operators at once.

Sadly feedback is completely static on the reface DX.

EDIT: forgot to add--I don't know if feedback is pre or post amplitude envelope. If it is post, than as the operator gets quieter, it also approaches a sine wave, but I suspect that that is not the case.
Old 21st September 2017 | Show parent
  #5
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
Each operator has a feedback envelop besides the regular four envelopes.

SOurce ?
Old 21st September 2017 | Show parent
  #6
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by abruzzi View Post

EDIT: forgot to add--I don't know if feedback is pre or post amplitude envelope. If it is post, than as the operator gets quieter, it also approaches a sine wave, but I suspect that that is not the case.

Exactly , with just one operator doing self feedback saw going to sine ,mimicing a low pass filtered saw .
Modulating another operator set to ratio 0 , for sine shaping .

Not possible
Old 21st September 2017 | Show parent
  #7
Kja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abruzzi View Post
I don't think thats true, unless there was an OS update that I haven't applied. My reface DX has exactly 5 envelopes--one amplitude envelope for each operator and one pitch envelope that can affect multiple operators at once.

Sadly feedback is completely static on the reface DX.

EDIT: forgot to add--I don't know if feedback is pre or post amplitude envelope. If it is post, than as the operator gets quieter, it also approaches a sine wave, but I suspect that that is not the case.
There is also an envelope in the 3rd or 4th page of each operators setting and a way to choose logarithmic or linear for the attach and decay of each one.. This is a feedback envelope.
Old 21st September 2017 | Show parent
  #8
Kja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
SOurce ?
My reface dx is my source.
Old 21st September 2017
  #9
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jarlywarly's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
To extend the question, how do you generate noise?
I've only otherwise had a FS1r and feedback settings of 6 and 7 generated white noise.

Can't seem to get noise from the Reface feedback (admittedly not spent much time with it yet).

For example, to generate 'spit' in a brass patch.

Any tips?
Old 21st September 2017
  #10
Gear Nut
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by abruzzi View Post
I don't think thats true, unless there was an OS update that I haven't applied. My reface DX has exactly 5 envelopes--one amplitude envelope for each operator and one pitch envelope that can affect multiple operators at once.

Sadly feedback is completely static on the reface DX.

EDIT: forgot to add--I don't know if feedback is pre or post amplitude envelope. If it is post, than as the operator gets quieter, it also approaches a sine wave, but I suspect that that is not the case.
There is also an envelope in the 3rd or 4th page of each operators setting and a way to choose logarithmic or linear for the attach and decay of each one.. This is a feedback envelope.
The third page of the operator menu is for keyboard scaling settings [KSC-Level]. There is no fourth page..

Source: I have a reface DX on my lap!

I'd love it if you could envelope control feedback but don't think you can?
Old 21st September 2017 | Show parent
  #11
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
My reface dx is my source.
Strange ,lot of contradictional posts here .;
One says you can , the other says you can't ....
Simpe question @ kja

So you can mimic a low pass filtered saw with just 1 operator + additional envelope routed to feedback amount ?

Care to upload a snippet where it goes from saw ( feedback) to sine ?
Old 21st September 2017
  #12
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
So it's safe to assume that kja didn't know the difference between an envelope and a key scaling page ?
Thus feedback is not modulated by env .

Sad ..
Old 21st September 2017
  #13
Kja
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Anybody want to buy a reface dx? I hate this piece of s$%#!! It looked like a envelope to me..
Old 21st September 2017 | Show parent
  #14
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
Anybody want to buy a reface dx? I hate this piece of s$%#!! It looked like a envelope to me..
Next time use your ears while making music
Old 21st September 2017 | Show parent
  #15
Kja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
Next time use your ears while making music
I do.. It sounds more crunchy the more up you go sometimes.. I really don't get keyscaling at all and why that matters.. I mean I get filter keytracking but I just don't get this.. It seems worthless to me.
Old 22nd September 2017 | Show parent
  #16
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robotunes's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
But what about original feedback routings , where the amount of feedback is affected by the operators envelopes ( like any other fm synth ).
Are you talking about operator level? I've never heard of feedback amount being controlled by an envelope on any of the many FM synths I've owned and loved. Have I been missing something all these years? Bear in mind, I've never (and will never) own a Montage. Maybe it's different there?

Quote:
SO we could go from saw ( full feedback ) to sine ...because of a decaying envelope
This is done by modulating operator level, not feedback, iirc.

Quote:
The envelope modulates the operators output AND feedback amount .
Is this the case on the reface dx ?
Well, by raising the level (i.e., volume) of an operator, you are controlling how much signal it feeds back into itself. This is the only way I've ever known of controlling feedback with a mod source on any (non-Montage) Yamaha FM I've known.

Quote:
If the new feedback per operator is the only feedback system possible , we can't do this .
I don't think that's true, but I'm open to being proven wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
I really don't get keyscaling at all and why that matters.. I mean I get filter keytracking but I just don't get this.. It seems worthless to me.
Keyscaling gives you fine control over modulators (the operators that determine how bright a sound is) as you go up the keyboard. When you program, it's a good idea to think of modulators as filters. So keyscaling is a lot like filter keytracking on an analog/VA synth. Hopefully I'm making sense.
Old 22nd September 2017 | Show parent
  #17
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotunes View Post
Are you talking about operator level? I've never heard of feedback amount being controlled by an envelope on any of the many FM synths I've owned and loved. Have I been missing something all these years?
Feedback that can be modulated by an LFO or an envelope is quite useful. It gives you instant control over the "buzziness" of your sound, independent of the volume. Think of it like having separate filter and amp envelopes on a subtractive synth.

I donΒ΄t think any Yamaha synth does this. The Kronos allows FB control by envelope/LFO. To decouple it from the amplitude, you have to pick the FB path that feeds the sine back directly to the modulation input (not the one that runs through the amp and the waveshaping).

I think the Reface DX has static FB (the feedback happens before the amplifier stage for the operator). Therefore you donΒ΄t get the usual lowpass gate like effect that you get when using feedback loops on "normal" Yamaha synths.
Old 22nd September 2017 | Show parent
  #18
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
I do.. It sounds more crunchy the more up you go sometimes.. I really don't get keyscaling at all and why that matters.. I mean I get filter keytracking but I just don't get this.. It seems worthless to me.
yeah, key scaling is one of the more esoteric parts of yamaha FM. It is there to emulate the way that a lot of acoustic instruments have a different sound in high registers than they do at low registers. Basically it reduces or increases the effect of the operators envelope depending on the note played. So for instance, you could boost it a low ranges and reduce it at high ranges so low notes have a lot of harmonics, but high notes are cleaner.
Old 23rd September 2017 | Show parent
  #19
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotunes View Post
Are you talking about operator level? I've never heard of feedback amount being controlled by an envelope on any of the many FM synths I've owned and loved. Have I been missing something all these years? Bear in mind, I've never (and will never) own a Montage. Maybe it's different there?



This is done by modulating operator level, not feedback, iirc.



Well, by raising the level (i.e., volume) of an operator, you are controlling how much signal it feeds back into itself. This is the only way I've ever known of controlling feedback with a mod source on any (non-Montage) Yamaha FM I've known.



I don't think that's true, but I'm open to being proven wrong.




Keyscaling gives you fine control over modulators (the operators that determine how bright a sound is) as you go up the keyboard. When you program, it's a good idea to think of modulators as filters. So keyscaling is a lot like filter keytracking on an analog/VA synth. Hopefully I'm making sense.
It seems that you didn't delve deep enought then .
Feedback is the amount of operator being fed backinto itself , the amplitude envelope of an operator also determines the amount of feedback , since it determines the amount of gain being routed back to the operator and at the same time to the output .
Nothing but a simple gain multiplier .
This is called POST ENVELOPE FEEDBACK , and al original dx synths have them ...you can go from saw to sine with just one operator set to feedback .
That's the beauty of it , but apparently some people don't get it ..even after 30 years .

Test this ..
-choose an operator , set feedback to almost fulle ( saw ) , long decaying envelope , almost no sustain .
-The result is an output thta is decreasing in gain , but also a feedback that is decreasing .;//thus going from saw to sine .

Some softsynths don't have this , oxe fm and apparentlythe reface dx .

Try it , you'll thank me later
https://imgur.com/a/WeyrQ
Old 23rd September 2017
  #20
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robinkle's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Key scaling controls the level of the operator across the keyboard.

You can’t add modulation to feedback unless it comes from an external midi source. That is the only way.
Old 23rd September 2017 | Show parent
  #21
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post
Key scaling controls the level of the operator across the keyboard.

You can’t add modulation to feedback unless it comes from an external midi source. That is the only way.
All dx synths operators feedback are directly controled by the operator envelope .
The amplitude envelope determines the ouput of the operator and THUS also the amount of output being fed back into itself .
What's so hard to understand ?

The fact that the reface doesn't do this means that the FEEDBACK is PRE envelope .,and is not influenced by the envelope .
If you have reaktor I can give you simple ensemble that demostrates this .
Old 23rd September 2017 | Show parent
  #22
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robotunes's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
Try it , you'll thank me later
Ah, I see where the confusion is coming from now. I thought you were talking about using an envelope to control the feedback parameter. I'm well aware of the phenomenon you're describing. Didn't know the term for it.

I like the Reface's approach too, which emphasizes independent modulation of operator and feedback. More possibilities, assuming one has a sequencer that spits out CCs to control feedback and other CC-modulatable parameters on the Reface.
Old 26th September 2017 | Show parent
  #23
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robinkle's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
All dx synths operators feedback are directly controled by the operator envelope .
The amplitude envelope determines the ouput of the operator and THUS also the amount of output being fed back into itself .
What's so hard to understand ?

The fact that the reface doesn't do this means that the FEEDBACK is PRE envelope .,and is not influenced by the envelope .
If you have reaktor I can give you simple ensemble that demostrates this .
We're not talking about the same thing at all. Now please, put your hormones at ease.
Old 26th September 2017 | Show parent
  #24
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by robinkle View Post
We're not talking about the same thing at all. Now please, put your hormones at ease.
Yes we are ;
My initial question was ' does the reface has the original algoritm routings , where the modulation feedback is controlled by the amplitude envelope , maybe that was some wishfull thinking from mys side .

I knew the reface has a +/- feedback .but wanted to make sure if it really was pre envelope .

Then someone chimed in , and thought the keyscale was a modulation envelope , poor guy

Conclusion , the reface has a PRE envelope feedback amount .which is NOT controllable by the amplitude envelope , unlike other dx synths where the feedback amount is post envelope ...meaning ..a decrease in output( controlled by the envelope ) is also routed back to the operator and
is thus decreasing the feedback amount ;


Old 16th January 2018 | Show parent
  #25
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Jens L.'s Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post

Then someone chimed in , and thought the keyscale was a modulation envelope , poor guy
It's not like you had a lot more of a clue than him...


just saying.
Old 16th January 2018
  #26
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🎧 5 years
Hook up your midi controller and jam with the feedback amount/curves yourself, heres the cc values:
https://usa.yamaha.com/files/downloa...e_en_dl_b0.pdf



dx is a beast!
Old 16th January 2018 | Show parent
  #27
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gentleclockdivid's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens L. View Post
It's not like you had a lot more of a clue than him...


just saying.
I know f.M. , and all it's little tricks ...positive /negative feedback( upsaw downsaw ), output operator polarity , eventually squared ( pow 2) back to itself for a square wave , which yamaha patented for their new reface .
This can all be doenwith one operator , and it would be even greater if the feedback was post envelope .
That's why I asked the question if the reface had the original algo routings , cause guess what ...I don't own one , that's why I asked
The posts I made in this topic are backed up by an example

Here , have a go at the mono version I made in reaktor ( no stock modules ) , it's called mono F.M.
gentleclockdivider . | Reaktor User Library
It provides square feedback , and yeah the reface wasn't even released then , so I do know what I am talking about
Now grow a brain .
Old 16th January 2018 | Show parent
  #28
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acreil's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
I know f.M. , and all it's little tricks ...positive /negative feedback( upsaw downsaw ), output operator polarity , eventually squared ( pow 2) back to itself for a square wave , which yamaha patented for their new reface .
I think it's actually absolute value. If you use absolute value, you can vary the foldover point and get PWM-like effects.

What would make the most sense is to add a second feedback envelope so that the operator amplitude and waveform can be controlled independently.
Old 16th January 2018 | Show parent
  #29
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
I know f.M. , and all it's little tricks ...positive /negative feedback( upsaw downsaw ), output operator polarity , eventually squared ( pow 2) back to itself for a square wave , which yamaha patented for their new reface .
care to elaborate? Maybe the "pow2" is not what i'm getting and makes this patent not clear to me. Tnx
Old 16th January 2018 | Show parent
  #30
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Jens L.'s Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
I know f.M. , and all it's little tricks ...positive /negative feedback( upsaw downsaw ), output operator polarity , eventually squared ( pow 2) back to itself for a square wave , which yamaha patented for their new reface .
This can all be doenwith one operator , and it would be even greater if the feedback was post envelope .
That's why I asked the question if the reface had the original algo routings , cause guess what ...I don't own one , that's why I asked
The posts I made in this topic are backed up by an example

Here , have a go at the mono version I made in reaktor ( no stock modules ) , it's called mono F.M.
gentleclockdivider . | Reaktor User Library
It provides square feedback , and yeah the reface wasn't even released then , so I do know what I am talking about
Now grow a brain .
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