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Behringer Model D
Old 14th July 2018
  #7351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quatschmacher View Post
Could you please post a link to the thread you mentioned? Thanks.

Are you able to figure out a way to modify the modulation section to correct the DC offset too?
Behringer Model D - DIY Mods

as for dc offset, haven't checked into that - was this the modulaton bleed thing some folks were concerend about?
Old 14th July 2018
  #7352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maffez View Post
with an accurate schematic of the board that went into production yes; just two diodes, switches and 3.3k resistors soldered to three points - yet atm I'm not sure if the one schematic really matches the board that went into production. tried the mod but it didn't work. Checking again today it really seems that the schematic is not the latest word...

Direct pitch modulation of individual vcos is easy. In the modular subforum I have a "Model DIY" thread with easier mods (direct waveform outs, PWM per VCO, FM per VCO). Also posted a couple of sound files for PWM and individual pitch mod examples
Get a Neutron please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quatschmacher View Post
Could you please post a link to the thread you mentioned? Thanks.

Are you able to figure out a way to modify the modulation section to correct the DC offset too?
It's in his post history

Behringer Model D - DIY Mods
Old 14th July 2018
  #7353
Quote:
Originally Posted by praiseallah View Post
Get a Neutron please


Behringer Model D - DIY Mods
hehehe - gofundme
Old 14th July 2018
  #7354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maffez View Post
hehehe - gofundme
Happy to chip in if it results in aftermarket mods :p
Old 14th July 2018
  #7355
Quote:
Originally Posted by praiseallah View Post
Happy to chip in if it results in aftermarket mods :p
Very kind! Well, personally my interest is in the D for the time being.

Neutron (haven't seen one in person) also seems well laid out in terms of connections/options. The square wave level thing some folks seem to find problematic is inherent to the 3340 chips/ direct out to an attenuator (internal or any passive such as Doepfer's) seems an easy solution. Easier than doing it internally (Neutron Osc Mixer section is done via amp I guess, while the D uses passive rotary switches, so putting a resistor in place smt style would require a bit of detective work).

But who knows, maybe in the future.
Old 14th July 2018
  #7356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maffez View Post
Very kind! Well, personally my interest is in the D for the time being.

Neutron (haven't seen one in person) also seems well laid out in terms of connections/options. The square wave level thing some folks seem to find problematic is inherent to the 3340 chips/ direct out to an attenuator (internal or any passive such as Doepfer's) seems an easy solution. Easier than doing it internally (Neutron Osc Mixer section is done via amp I guess, while the D uses passive rotary switches, so putting a resistor in place smt style would require a bit of detective work).

But who knows, maybe in the future.
An active attenuator before the filter would be nice, that way you could boost the quieter waveforms? Could be problematic with the square wave already being hot though?

How feasible is something like an active attenuator followed by fold back distortion (pre filter). Maybe there's room for a knob and a patch point (for the attenuator level) in the filter section? This would fix the square wave level, allow you to boost the quieter signals without having to worry about the louder ones and add a little extra more options to sound design (fits with the Neutrons sound too).

E2a: I realise this can be done with eurorack modules but it would be very nice if the synth could have this built in)
Old 14th July 2018
  #7357
Quote:
Originally Posted by praiseallah View Post
E2a: I realise this can be done with eurorack modules but it would be very nice if the synth could have this built in)
Yeah, guess it would. Hard for me to say without a stripdown/some schematics, but afak the Neutron's waveform mixer is a set of amps controlled by cv. theoretically the square could be tamed by inserting a resistor at the right point to lower amplification/introduce attenuation and set it on level with the saw wave. who knows, maybe there'd be also options for sneaking a pre filter level pot in. Yet, I'm not a pro & most in the Neutron being surface mount, i.e. very small would require attention and careful soldering. I'm certain that someone will sooner or later tackle the Berhisynths tho. 4hp left to a full eurorack row practically screams for add ons

any foldback/distortion etc. might be most flexible via an insert and a doepfer beauty case with some folder, ringmod, extra filter stuff.

Electricdruid have some excellent on different 3340 designs

CEM3340 VCO (Voltage Controlled Oscillator) designs | Electric Druid
Old 14th July 2018
  #7358
Gear Addict
 
Zapman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by praiseallah View Post
An active attenuator before the filter would be nice, that way you could boost the quieter waveforms? Could be problematic with the square wave already being hot though?

How feasible is something like an active attenuator followed by fold back distortion (pre filter). Maybe there's room for a knob and a patch point (for the attenuator level) in the filter section? This would fix the square wave level, allow you to boost the quieter signals without having to worry about the louder ones and add a little extra more options to sound design (fits with the Neutrons sound too).

E2a: I realise this can be done with eurorack modules but it would be very nice if the synth could have this built in)
Does this like a solution:
KOMA Attenuator Cable – KOMA Elektronik
Old 14th July 2018
  #7359
Gear Addict
 
Zapman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by praiseallah View Post
An active attenuator before the filter would be nice, that way you could boost the quieter waveforms? Could be problematic with the square wave already being hot though?

How feasible is something like an active attenuator followed by fold back distortion (pre filter). Maybe there's room for a knob and a patch point (for the attenuator level) in the filter section? This would fix the square wave level, allow you to boost the quieter signals without having to worry about the louder ones and add a little extra more options to sound design (fits with the Neutrons sound too).

E2a: I realise this can be done with eurorack modules but it would be very nice if the synth could have this built in)
Does this look like a solution:
KOMA Attenuator Cable – KOMA Elektronik
Old 14th July 2018
  #7360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapman View Post
Yes that would to the trick

I don't think I'll bother though, gives me an excuse to purchase a few euro modules
Old 16th July 2018
  #7361
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kurzweil's Avatar
UK price seems to be £280 inc VAT and delivery (with discount code 'save5'):
Behringer Model D Analogue Synthesizer - Behringer from Inta Audio UK
Old 17th July 2018
  #7362
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RetroFunk's Avatar
 

Yey! my Boog arrived - in perfect condition with UK plug

First impression, what a product! It's cute and well designed, thought out, well done Uli and crew.

Anyway, just a few thoughts, I note the first two triangle waveforms seem to be quite low level compared to the other trangle, sq are strong but that's usual.

Makes me laff, the tune on OSC2 and 3 are just like the Moog, a wide range over which only a really tiny amount is needed. Like for like I guess.

It would be nice to have a block diagram in the manual, a signal flow diagram so I can see what goes where, esp. around the mod section, as to what gets switched in/out where. Has anyone done one?

Anyway, it's one of those synths that isn't "instant gratification" - it's gonna take some time to get to know how to drive this cutie.

I was thinking, prompted by the thought waves 1 and 2 seem low compared to the rest, how many of these Boogs will get modified? I'm thinking now like the strat guitar, how many strats live an unmolested life? Even I have "modified" the ones I own.
Old 17th July 2018
  #7363
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Most perceived volume differences of waveforms are due to overtones. Square always sounds hotter than saw, saw hotter than triangle. The fundamental is roughly the same in each wave.
Old 17th July 2018
  #7364
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RetroFunk's Avatar
 

yes I know the theory of waveforms but that's not my point. I was going to mention PSD in my original post just to cover all that. It's common to design a system so the signals "sound" the same. I just felt the waveforms are more even in volume on the real Moog (or so it seemed when I had one to play with) Ho hum, my message now gets washed up
Old 17th July 2018
  #7365
Gear Maniac
 
noisyneil's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RetroFunk View Post
Makes me laff, the tune on OSC2 and 3 are just like the Moog, a wide range over which only a really tiny amount is needed. Like for like I guess.
yeah but then you can do cool things like tune the oscillators to a chord.

1, 5, 9 (eg, C,G,D) HERE

...unless you're talking about the internal trims, in which case, the newer models have blue gears attached that make the adjustments finer. unfortunately i've got the original and tuning it is a bit of a pain.
Old 17th July 2018
  #7366
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IncarnateX's Avatar
 

I am here to pay a last tribute to my Boog, which I have just sold. Yes, I sold it after a few months together. Not because it doesn’t deliver the moog sound, because it does indeed. Not because of calibration or pitch bend problems, but because I had an unexpected amount of money coming my way and thus a chance to rearrange my studio to fit exactly what I need. And what I need is Total Recall of patches via program change messages controlled from my Fantom G. Therefore the dear Boog has no place in my new set up. It had to go along with Volca Bass and even my beloved MC909 to finance a new batch of midi controllable analog synths: Bass Station II, Analog keys and Deepmind 6. Sorry, Uli and Tribes, you did a great work, but sampling synth-lines instead of having real time midi control over their doings is not me after all. It is still a steal if you are into live jamming, eurorack fun or looping. So hail Boog, minimoog sound brought to the people as well as minimoog limitations. At least I did not had to pay a fortune for a Minimoog reissue to learn that it is not for me after all.

Hail Boog and The Behringer Tribes and bye bye for now.
Old 17th July 2018
  #7367
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetroFunk View Post
yes I know the theory of waveforms but that's not my point. I was going to mention PSD in my original post just to cover all that. It's common to design a system so the signals "sound" the same. I just felt the waveforms are more even in volume on the real Moog (or so it seemed when I had one to play with) Ho hum, my message now gets washed up
Behringer and Moog levels are identical. It's a circuit clone.
Old 17th July 2018
  #7368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro Spy View Post
Behringer and Moog levels are identical. It's a circuit clone.
Havent measured but yup, Behringer is a reproduction/copy of the "old" Mini oscillator board - discrete transistors, resistors, etc.)
Old 17th July 2018
  #7369
Gear Maniac
Just got mine from music store.de came with a euro plug which was a pain but they posted me a uk one too so actually ended up with a spare power supply quick question, went to the support site to check for firmware. Newest online is 1.06. but it seems mine already has 1.07. Anyone else got the same as me?
Old 18th July 2018
  #7370
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RetroFunk's Avatar
 

@ noisyneil , #7363 - wow that's a good idea!
@ Astro spy #7369 - yeh that's the concluson I came to, a direct clone, also guys had checked the circuit diagram over so yeh, I thought, that's the way it is. That sorta prompted my comment on strats and modifications.

I know when I had a real Mini Moog to play with, it took me 10 mins and I thought.. "is that IT!?" - all that hype over...that! So I can see why people will buy a Boog and then quickly sell it, basically not living up to the hype, but that's not a failing of the Boog.

It seems to be one of those items that is very subtle and yet flexible. I noticed that even small adjustments can make a useful change in tone. Also that modulation section, needs thought and time to learn, from the few experments I've done by guessing, there's a lot of things to discover. I'm not sure (or really care) what extras the Boog has over the Moog, but the ones I see really add to flexibiity, good thinking chaps.

Again I don't know if the Moog did this, the external input knob feeding back the Boog output back into itself, sounds like disaster to me, but I find with careful adjustments all sorts of sounds come about. Nice the see the red overload led flash too.

As mentioned elsewhere, just like my Ham C3, it needs 30 mins warm up time to get a full head of steam, basically sounding like we expect.

At the mo, I have a TR808 (soundalike) a CP70 (soundalike) and this Boog, I keep getting Giorgio Moroder vibes, it's great!
Old 18th July 2018
  #7371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetroFunk View Post
I know when I had a real Mini Moog to play with, it took me 10 mins and I thought.. "is that IT!?" - all that hype over...that! So I can see why people will buy a Boog and then quickly sell it, basically not living up to the hype, but that's not a failing of the Boog.
I think it's important to understand a few things when getting the Behringer Model D. Especially if this is to be someone's first hardware synth, first real gear, etc.

1. Behringer 100% successfully cloned a Minimoog, and the Mini is a legendary synth that's constantly referenced. Have no fear, it's all there. The sound, the behavior, everything you hear in those classic records. Those three drifty VCOs, the squishy electric zap of the Moog ladder filter.

2. The Minimoog is also pretty much the first real synth as we know them. It's older than most of the people who ordering it! So the D has some charmingly limited specs. Even with the dedicated LFO, highpass mode and patch points, it's really an antique, feature-wise. And heard dry, without the playing skills and rock/funk/early electronic context? Some people will be let down.


If Moog were smart they'd issue a Minimoog 2 or Model E, adding all the modern features (sub osc, sync, ring, effects, PWM, etc) while keeping the 70's style UI and refreshing lack of patch memory. (Grandmother and Sub 37 are 2-osc synths and not really D sequels) Hell, let's have 4 VCOs and paraphony! Then they could charge 3k for a mono and deserve it.

It's probably up to Behringer to top the Mini.
Old 18th July 2018
  #7372
Gear Nut
 
mutronboy's Avatar
I agree. the original was mainly a bass and lead tone machine.
I owned three originals and was always frustrated with the limitations
I can think of half a dozen monos I've owned that were more inspiring, experimentally
Synthacon, Pro One, CS30L, CS40M, SH-5 ..even the Multimoog

But I'm lovin' the Boog with it's extras. Great nostalgia for us oldies!
Old 18th July 2018
  #7373
Put together a little Modding Guide for the Behringer Model D if anyone fancies Frankensteining theirs. Covers CV out, PWM, hard sync and some more.

Behringer Model D - DIY Mods
Old 18th July 2018
  #7374
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro Spy View Post

It's probably up to Behringer to top the Mini.
Should put 6 Boog boards into a single synth and add a patch memory.

Instant classic.
Old 18th July 2018
  #7375
Deleted User
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kraze View Post
Should put 6 Boog boards into a single synth and add a patch memory.

Instant classic.
For many, sure! Personally, I'm not into polysynths and really not a fan of patch memory.

What I want is a proper Minimoog sequel. A model E. A mono synth with everything and a knob per function.
Old 18th July 2018
  #7376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro Spy View Post
For many, sure! Personally, I'm not into polysynths and really not a fan of patch memory.

What I want is a proper Minimoog sequel. A model E. A mono synth with everything and a knob per function.
I'll take the E and the Poly D. I'd also like the D broken down into modules with a tonne of CV patchpoints, sync, and, PWM added (like the AJH stuff).
Old 19th July 2018
  #7377
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matt pinchin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astro Spy View Post
For many, sure! Personally, I'm not into polysynths and really not a fan of patch memory.

What I want is a proper Minimoog sequel. A model E. A mono synth with everything and a knob per function.
Yes but lets not call it model E, people might think its the welsh minimoog 204E.
Google it.....
Old 19th July 2018
  #7378
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RetroFunk's Avatar
 

Welsh Minimoog!? I never saw that one, well done to the guy. It's interesting because to actually make that synth would have taken a lot of time and effort, was it worth it? If the guy owned the rights for the name (in the UK) chances are, in the long run he'd make more money by sitting tight and then selling the name. All the same he was smart enough to actually know about the name being available.

Over the years I've looked at design/build/sell various electronic products like that, but I know how much time and effort goes into it, then the return and other "issues" = nope, not worth it. I prefer to do that for compaines on a salary and when the business closes at least I've already had the money!

Boog = perfect solution. I'm going to checkout what's available at the patch points. I'm interested to know what can be done without opening the Boogie's box. I'm thinking with a few simple electronic circuits greater flexibility can be achived.

And in reply to my earlier post about the sq waves being hot, had a look at the circuit and it seems easy enough to change the level, so I'm bored with that now

UPDATE: My 'scope has been my lifelong friend, just hooked it up to my Boog. If I look at the mix output to check the outputs of the three Osc, I notice the second triangle is about -4dB on the sq waves (all approx of course, no court case looming).

Sadly I notice on the top corner of the triangle, a blip, switching glitch. No matter we must continue.

Need new spex time, I only just noticed on Osc 3 the second waveform is a falling saw wave and not the modified triangle as the Osc 1 and 2!

Also notice the sq out of the mix jack is all -ve whereas the triangles are about zero (ac coupled), that could cause confusion later.

I also notice the Loud Contour output can rise to 6V not 4.6V as mentioned on page 47 of the manual, and also the Filter Contour can go up to 7V (4V in manual). Not a crime, just things we need to be aware of.

I looked at the pitch bend (over midi) yeh bit weird this one, goes in steps but from what I'm seeing, there's a gap around zero before anything happens, most of that is due to the way my MIDI pitch wheel and electronics in my host keyboard are doing it's thing. But still does the change in steps.
Just discovered the Pitch bend works fine when the Boog is driven over USB and not midi.

I got the schematic but can't find the Mod Depth knob.

Perhaps I should add, I'm not saying any of these are faults, also my measurements could be out, so only use as a guideline.

another update: for fun this, talk about the filter self oscillate, set cutoff freq to -1, filter emph to 10, contour 4, all mixer switches to off, press a key and you've got a full frequency sweep ! mine goes right up to 35kHz! an nice sine wave too, should scare away all pets. Cutoff Freq controls acts as a frequency knob.

I need help! I'm trying to set the Pitch Bend Range to 03, but can't get it to work. I've tried using MidiOx, found the Boog as a USB device, sent it the sysex codes as per p40 of the manual but the Boog doesn't change. I've even tried sending a sysex string (over USB) from my sequencer/DAW but still no luck. Anyone know what the trick is?

Last edited by RetroFunk; 20th July 2018 at 10:03 AM.. Reason: added update, another update, asking for sysex help
Old 20th July 2018
  #7379
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maffez View Post
Behringer Model D - DIY Mods

as for dc offset, haven't checked into that - was this the modulaton bleed thing some folks were concerend about?
Yes, that’s right. Sending modulation of LFO or filter EG to the oscillators sends the pitch sharp by a semitone.

Thanks for the link.
Old 20th July 2018
  #7380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quatschmacher View Post
Yes, that’s right. Sending modulation of LFO or filter EG to the oscillators sends the pitch sharp by a semitone.

Thanks for the link.
Wow, thats a lot. Might be worth trying to ground the pot and switch additionally to reduce bleed. If that does not work, changing the pot for one with a higher value.

put together a little modding guide with one or two thoughts on the mod section as well:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/atta...cations_v1.pdf
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