Greetings everyone:

Does anyone do conversions of Yamaha Reface instruments to rack-mount format?

Here's the situation:

Have a Nord Stage 88. Satisfied with all aspects of it, except for the Yamaha CP80 patch when tracked. The patch is fine for rehearsal etc., and is actually very usable in the low/mid-range, but higher notes are not that convincing when tracked and mixed with other instruments, including synths. The patch is used extensively in recording.

Auditioned the Yamaha CP1 and found its CP80 patch to be more convincing in the high notes, but really don't need another 88 key "stage" type keyboard. The Nord Stage 88 covers everything the CP1 does and more, including a preference for the keyboard action (except of course that darn CP80 patch in the high notes).

Auditioned the CP4 and arrived at the same conclusion as the CP1, except that the CP4, while lighter, had a lower quality build and less options than the CP1. Apparently there really is a reason why Yamaha bestows the "1" as the ultimate version of a particular release (see DX1, GX1, etc).

And then there is the Reface CP. All that would be wanted from that is its great CP80 patch, which was in turn lifted from the CP1 (and CP4). But then there is the crummy (IMHO) form factor: Mini-keys, unwieldy size (too big to mount in a rack, too big to place on/to the side of another keyboard like a small module. And too small to actually be....well, played like a real instrument. Not interested in toy keyboards (but I appreciate what Yamaha tried to do here).

So I've been studying the concept of modifying a Reface CP to make it fit in a rack. I note that the instrument is about 21" with those tiny speakers. It appears that one could cut off the keyboard and two speakers, to arrive at a form factor that would permit it to be mounted in a 19" rack. That is what I am interested in doing.

The L/R, power and MIDI cable that comes out the back of the instrument would then go "up" once mounted in a rack, but that can be solved with L-cables and a 1U blank panel mounted above the Reface CP (like is done with rack instruments like the Ensoniq Fizmo Rack).

Does anyone know of any shops that may make such modifications? Or any other creative suggestions to just get a darn CP80 sound module into a 19" rack?

I note that Manikin did just that with their Memotron Rack: Mellotron in a rack! Now how about something like that with the CP80.....

Thanks everyone in advance for any comments or suggestions.

Found some pictures that should illustrate what I'm asking about:

Here's the patch I'm talking about: The sound of the Yamaha CP80 electric grand piano, used by Peter Gabriel, Genesis, U2, Simple Minds, Phil Collins, Roxy Music, etc.: See photo

This sound can be found in the Yamaha Reface CP: See photo.

Here is a photo of an example of a Korg Minilogue that has similar dimensions to the Yamaha Reface CP.

And here is a photo of an example of the Korg Minilogue converted for rack mount use.

I would like to know if anyone knows of anyone doing this type of a modification, or any comments or suggestions on such a project.

Thanks very much.

The Reface CP keybed, although mini, has a surprisingly lovely velocity reaponse and feel.

Though I take your point!

First, I wonder if any of the Motif Rack units have the same CP80 sound you are looking for? I don't know the answer, just a thought.

As far as the Reface goes though, take a look at Markus Fuller's teardown videos of the YC and DX.
The CP will be very similar inside, so this will give you a good idea about what could be done.




And here's a screenshot from one of his videos:


I have a CS, and I've been considering doing the opposite - trying to stuff the guts of it into a MIDI controller keyboard with 49 full-sized keys. I haven't attempted it yet, just merely thinking about it.

I think converting to a desktop module would be very easy based on the picture above. You could just cut off the sides (speakers) and the keybed section. A nice wooden case should be easy if you are DIY-inclined and have the tools. Or you could search the net for an appropriately-sized plastic "project case" like these:
Project Boxes | All Electronics Corp.

A rack unit seems pretty easy too. In fact, they circuit boards seem to have been designed perfectly for a rack since they are about 17" long. The top control panel is also separate from the CPU and I/O boards, so you could have them oriented in different directions. The I/O and power connectors could be pointed out the back of the rack. No need for right-angle cables.

Hi DR, thanks. Yes, I've read that the keys actually have a nice action. Perhaps Yamaha will do like Korg did with the ARP Odyssey reissue and issue a Reface CP FS (full size keys, but only a couple octaves). Not likely, but one never knows!

Hi Soundx, thanks very much for your comments. Sorry for the delay in response, but as you'll see from the rest of this post, I took some time to seriously consider each of your great suggestions.

Regarding the Yamaha Motif Rack as an alternative: Based on your (again great suggestion) I hunted the local shops for any used Motif Rack (any of the 3 versions, the original, the ES, or the XS). Did find an XS that I was able to demo. Wow was that thing beat up, the worst rack rash ever etc. But it worked. And it has a CP80 patch. Tested it extensively. Sounds good but is definitely an earlier generation, sample based patch, and less preferable (IMHO) to that in the Nord Stage 88 across the note range. Went across town and auditioned a new Yamaha CP4 again, and the wave modelling-technology (or whatever) in the CP4 definitely sounded superior to that in the Motif Rack XS. I note the XS came out in 2008, based on the keyboard version released in 2007 (and based on technology from the original Motifs of 2001), and the CP1 (which begat the CP4) came out in 2010. It appears Yamaha significantly improved the sound of the CP80 by switching technologies for the CP1 over that interim.

I did study Markus Fuller's videos - brilliant! Thanks for that. It appears that the speakers and keyboard could be cut off without any circuit boards having to be moved. Now if there was a shop that could actually do the conversion to rack. I do not have the skills or tools to convert a Reface CP to rack. Looks fairly straightforward.... Perhaps there is someone like a Randel Osborne (the creator of the Enabler knob box for the Rhodes Chroma) or that gentleman who does the Stereoping knob boxes that does something like this?

I did take a look at the Project Box links. Another super suggestion to think about. Noted that they don't have any empty 19" racks, but still the concept is right. I recall Glyph had done some blank 19" racks (to install drives and the like), perhaps others still make something like that. Will have to search more.

Good luck with your CS conversion project - please do post on GS if that starts moving forward, would be very interested to learn how it progresses! Would you connect the keyboard to the CS via USB or MIDI? I note that nowadays most small controller keyboards communicate only by USB. Was looking for a standard DIN MIDI 2 octave controller, and couldn't find anything suitable new; got a Novation ReMote 25 (the original) that fit the bill perfectly.

Thanks again!

I would be all over a rack or module version of the Reface CP.

Same.

Hi There!

Making a 1 unit rack version of the CP should be feasible. I managed to strip mine down, for making my dream come true: having a Rhodes and a CP70 in my living room

The only limitation is the lenght of the cables connecting the front panel with the main board. see pics...

Holy hell that is one of the coolest mods I have ever seen. Wow, just wow!

Why not just sample the CP1 or Reface (or indeed, a CP80) and make your own custom patch for the Nord Stage?

Just a thought for you which is something I used to gig with

Get a generic synth anvil type road case, new or used doesn't matter

Refoam the inside to hold the Reface CP and any other small gizmos this will sit very well on a top tier of your keyboard stand

I had a small mixer, a Casio SK1, Yamaha PSS-480 and several effects pedals in my set up

I have the Reface DX which is the same size this would work great

Two questions:

Are you still able to do the startup/hold key functions from an external keyboard (eg set MIDI channel)?

Where did you find a gutted Rhodes?

Seriously good mod. You might also want to add the 'hidden piano hack' on a switch or swap out the rotary to make it a selection while you're at it....

Thanks Rob!

No. But i kept the original keyboard with its short lead, so it can be plugged into the mainboard in case I need to make a change. I made all settings (Speakers off, etc) and disconnected and stored the original minikeyboard.

WRT to the Rhodes I found the rail and top plastic lid of an 88 Rhodes on eBay. I made the cabinet myself trying to follow the lines and angles as best as possible by looking at pics of real Rhodes (never sat in front of a real one) :(
Had a lot of fun with the project so far. But you know what is the best? Just flipping one switch and having an instant-on Rhodes/CP70 experience without PCs plugins, mouse clicks, amplifiers and monitors to be turned on, etc. It invites to be turned on and just be played
Here some pics of my first version. Then I did a complete re-do with the exact same lines as the original, stripped down the controller (leaving just the keybed) and added a Roland XV2020 to the front.

That will require sampling each key (88) 4 to 6 times at different velocities (Not sure how many velocity layers have been included in the Reface version of the CP80 samples)

But beyond that, I think the magic of the reface are the effects (Tremolo/chorus/reverb) and the infinite combinations you get by tweaking in real time. That is the problem with most ePiano patches, you have one patch clean, another with a fixed tremolo, another with chorus, etc.
The effects are very big portion of the vintage electric pianos sounds.
As an example the most iconic recordings featuring a CP70/80s we have been listening for so many years (late 70s to late 80s) are rarely clean but heavily chorused. A very distinctive sound.
Same with the Rhodes and Wurlys.

Yamaha nailed it down on having simplified the experience with the Reface by putting those effects controls in the main panel (no menus, etc)

Sampling and porting to another engine will require mapping physical controls to the appropriate effects in that given engine, and to try to mimic the Overdrive, Tremolo, WahWah, Chorus, Phaser, Delays and Reverb that you have on the Yamaha.
I dont say it is not possible, but a lot of work unless you want just one or 2 specific configurations

Best,

That's seriously impressive work, especially for not seeing one close up. I grew up playing a Rhodes 73 as my first keyboard and never would have thought your box wasn't original.

Nice choice for the 2020 too with it's silver front panel. The JV/XV sounds seem to be in vogue again (I always liked them) the SRV vintage synths and classic keys expansion boards would be great in there, especially the mellotrons and organs. Layer those with the Reface Rhodes...

I'd reach out to Yamaha Japan and show them what you've done. If you're still having trouble with the feel wrt to the velocity curves they might offer to give you a custom firmware. Stranger things have happened.

Thanks Rob!

You know better then!. Having a real Rhodes in the living room must be heaven. Do you still have it? There some available on ebay/reverb. They are a little bit expensive and I am sure they will need a good restoration effort to have them like new (A really nice project to have , (and expensive one) . Can be outsourced of course,Vintage Vibe does a really great job in that area and they have almost every single part. They even make their own version.

JV/XV are my favorite line of module engines. In my case I grew up with JV1080. My favority piece of HW ever. of course fitted with "Keys of 60/70" and Vintage Synths" expansion boards. Also had a Roland VR760 fitted with the Vintage Keys SRX board. This XV2020 in my "Rhodes Mk8" as I call it , has the "Concert Piano" and "Symphonic Strings" boards (is not the right controller for the Vintage synths sounds though

But you are right, the JV/XV series kept evolving. If you have a chance to grab a Roland Integra, do it It has almost the entire JV/XV sounds (including all SRX expansions ever made, plus all the Natural Sound patches. Incredible synth engine with 5.1 outputs. I had the chance to try it. I am waiting for it becoming available used at good bargain price

WRT velocity and the Reface, I am using a Midi Solutions Velocity Converter. I am still trying to adjust the velocity curve to the controller. That is another chapter, The keybed I am using happen to be a Fatar TP30 (not TP40). It was really heavy for me, my hands hurting after playing for a while. So I modified the weights for each key and made it gradual also . but I am dealing with accuracy with that bed (it is 2003 and I know Fatar evolved that bed to TP40 then 400 and improved accuracy. So, dealing with that and finding the right velocity curve. There are a couple of things I have found so far, Reface CP doesnt trigger a note with velocity=1, it needs to be 2 an up (weird, but solved with the velocity converter). The other thing I found so far is that it seems there are really a few samples layers (velocity wise) (at least for the Mk1/Wurly and CP80 sounds I use more often). They say Reface uses the same Engine/samples than CP4. I am not sure of that, and not sure if the CP4 has more layers in the CP80 patches. I have heard the CP80 sound on a Montague and its expression is truly amazing. Probably more layers.
I will keep exploring this topic and share my findings.
Thanks much again!
Best.



WRT

Hey Resonator, I have sent you IM. I can help you if you are still interested. Seems a nice project to do.
Fitting the guts of the reface on this enclosure and mounting the front panel looks very easy.

19" Rack Mount Steel Chassis, 1U Height and 300mm Deep

Worst case scenario is that it will require a 2U enclosure since the PCB board supporting the front panel knobs may be a little bit too big to fit in 1U. I haven't measured it though.

Let me know.

Best
Bernardo

That. . . is amazing. What craftsmanship. A complete win. Congratulations.

So with those amazing skills, when is your first 8-voice analog synth going to be released? Someone needs to compete with that Baloran synth!

Looks good!

HaHaha thanks!

If you could see the guts of this one: 8" Drivers firing down, tweeters firing up, 3" coaxial drivers firing up, BBE processor just for that extra warm (tried with an vintage Alesis EQ but the BBE does a superb job), Amplifier power supplies, Rolls mixer strpped down with pots moved to the front panel, relays for switching audio sources, Midi processor, Midi Merge, Midi Velocity , Midi Interface, personalized Fatar Tp30 (extracted from a korg SP300, craiglisted for pennies ) external Subwoofer... etc

I don't want to add up all that stuff and compare it with a Korg SV1 price...
but for sure the one-switch-instant-on (no external audio amp/speakers needed) plus the great CP80 patch, worth every penny of it

I saw that there is a DIY thread around, I will post some pics of the second (and final version) of this "MK8" there.

Hi B4 - that is what I'm thinking of! Will respond to your IM next. Thanks again!

PS I did check out the CP80 samples on the Yamaha Montage 8. Sounds like they are from the same CP1/CP4 source as the Reface CP, very nice. The Montage 8 is a very nice workstation, but I still prefer the Nord Stage 88 in all respects other than for CP80 emulation. Now I wonder if Yamaha will ever make a rack version of the Montage 8, that would be interesting....

I notice you have left the octave selector on there. Is this because it was too difficult to separate from the rest of the panel as all wired together? I'm assuming the selector is redundant as you have plenty of keys now!

User samples in the Nords are limited to one velocity layer, pretty useless for sampling something like a piano sound.

But if this is just for recording and not live performance, I'd be surprised if you couldn't find a VST that did a CP80 at least as well as a reface.

Has anyone found a replacement keybed that could connect directly to the main PCB on the Reface CP? There appears to be two molex connections, a 7pin and another 12pin (according to the pictures i've seen).

You could directly connect a keybed to it (e.g., along the lines of the NP-XX keybeds that Yamaha uses* on the Piaggero range), though I'd guess that a decent weighted MIDI controller would work just fine.

With the arrival of the MODX range, I'd basically given up on this as used 61-key units have dropped below the $1K USD range.

* - diode orientation, not pinout, being an equally important factor to consider.

hello, thinking about modding my reface cp, really just wanting to remove the keys and turn it into a table top rack, did you have any issues with needing the tiny keys to change settings on the reface?

I use them for that, and I'm not aware of another way of changing settings.

You could probably do what I've done to by BSII - take the PCB off the keybed and just keep that, with the rubber contacts, as a strip of buttons.

thought that might be the case.. btw do you have a pic of yours up anywhere and how do you like it?

Pics of my BSII? I haven't taken any, but I could.

Sorry; I'm not sure which you're asking about. My Reface CP is still as it came, though I made an external box to add one or more to the velocity, because losing notes when I played it softly was really bothering me.