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Behringer VP 330 Vocoder clone Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 16th February 2018
  #751
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Firechild's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamstan View Post
That's good question. If it was the case (VC340 having only 3 octave range), then adding another octave would also require another set of dividers, waveshapers and envelopes. OTOH it has those octave transpose switches and MIDI, so probably envelopes aren't connected directly to keyboard, but instead they are triggered by CPU - and that means that it doesn't have to be restricted by keyboard size.

So, @Uli Behringer or @Firechild - what range does it have?
If you need more octaves, just play from a bigger MIDI keyboard
It is as simple as that
Old 16th February 2018
  #752
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cake100's Avatar
 

If there is going to be say only 1000 made, would it save money to sell direct from the Behringer website?
Old 16th February 2018
  #753
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AnalogGuy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firechild View Post
If you need more octaves, just play from a bigger MIDI keyboard
It is as simple as that
I feel like what Vangelis said:

"Once Synclavier said it had the best piano sound in the world but the keyboard wasn't a full piano keyboard. So I said to them 'I don't see how you can play a real piano if the keyboard has less octaves than the real piano'. They said 'you can buy a mother keyboard'. But I said 'If I'm paying 300,000 dollars for this machine why can't you add two octaves to your keyboard?' This kind of conception is very backwards."

Behringer VP needs to be either full 4 octaves or then just module.
Old 16th February 2018
  #754
Lives for gear
 

WOW.

From that demo, damn, sounds like 'THE REAL DEAL'. And I'm a total stringer fanatic (currently own eko stradivarius, elka 610, rs-202). Maybe in person there's more of a difference, but the demo sounds pretty indistinguishable, and stringers are hard to nail. But, considering I own vintage stringers, not sure I need a new one, more reliable sure, and has vocoder and choir (the draw for me). I'd really have to sit it down with the rs-202 and see how close it really gets to see if I could sell the old to keep the new.

It also likely makes sense to 'slightly' raise the price of soon to be runaway popular units (ie: model D, Neutron) to help lower the prices on 'labor of love' projects like this a bit.

Personally though I don't need more units with keys, midi does fine. I'm not opposed to minikeys like some, but not a huge fan either. But 3 octaves is 'neither fish nor fowl' (too in between, not sure that translates in all languages). It would be a LOT more tempting if desktop for 699.
Old 16th February 2018
  #755
Gear Head
 

At those prices, it could go either way.
Those prices are beyond my interest in the product.

My suggestion would be to take the knowledge from this project, and implement it in to another product. Perhaps a string macines based on several of the classics, a kind of one-stop for stringmachines. Or some franken-analog-retro-keyboard, with this + a Model D + some sort of (transistor?) organ (clone) all built in to a single instrument with splitting and layering support, and perhaps a nice effects section to round things off.
Old 16th February 2018
  #756
Gear Maniac
 
adamstan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firechild View Post
If you need more octaves, just play from a bigger MIDI keyboard
It is as simple as that
That's great. Have you tested how far up and down will it go driven from external keyboard?
Old 16th February 2018
  #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonHolstein View Post
At those prices, it could go either way.
Those prices are beyond my interest in the product.

My suggestion would be to take the knowledge from this project, and implement it in to another product. Perhaps a string macines based on several of the classics, a kind of one-stop for stringmachines. Or some franken-analog-retro-keyboard, with this + a Model D + some sort of (transistor?) organ (clone) all built in to a single instrument with splitting and layering support, and perhaps a nice effects section to round things off.
The market has been crying out for something like that almost since the 80s, but I think this could sell very well, too. Very convincing sound, from what I hear.
Old 16th February 2018
  #758
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Polymooger's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonHolstein View Post
My suggestion would be to take the knowledge from this project, and implement it in to another product. Perhaps a string macines based on several of the classics, a kind of one-stop for stringmachines.
But we're talking about clones here. Reproduction of the original circuits using the original parts (or versions thereof) so as to sound exactly the same, as near as can be. So how can cloning of several synths, which used different circuits and parts, be cheaper than just doing one?
Old 16th February 2018
  #759
Gear Maniac
 

Just my two cents for what it's worth.

The sound is nailed perfectly (thanks Firechild, very much appreciated your demos!), kudos to the Behringer team that created it.

If skipping the keyboard and making it a module makes the price come down a (little) bit and silence the 3-4 octave keyboard debate, then I'm all for a module.
Then you can choose minikeys/normal keys/25-key/37-key/49-key/61-key/88-key, whatever you like.
Old 16th February 2018
  #760
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymooger View Post
But we're talking about clones here. Reproduction of the original circuits using the original parts (or versions thereof) so as to sound exactly the same, as near as can be. So how can cloning of several synths, which used different circuits and parts, be cheaper than just doing one?
It would not be cheaper, than a device with just one of those built in. But the price would probably be lower than buying each and single one separate.
The expanded verastility can be an imporant factor when it comes to niche products.
If we ignore the price factor for a while, I'm sure a string machines that covers most, would have a much larger market than one that is just clone of a single one.
For those playing in bands, if they need to spread their string machines needs over several machines (clones, or clones plus sample based), there are probalby a lot that would simply skip of getting that single purpose one.
There are probably a lot that think that stringmachines are "meh", but whereas the prospect of having most of them in a single package could be somewhat attractive.
There are those that rather save space for other things in their studio, that could be won over by the prospect of having a single machine to cover their stringmachines wants all in one.

How much will customers be willing to pay for a stringmachine that does the sound of most classic string machines, vs one that only covers the sound of one?


For someone just looking for that stringmachine sound, and who doesn't particularly care what string machine, as long as it is a string machine, the price of this is quite high, and for someone that isn't that fuzzy, the streichfett, could probably easily cover their needs, if they aren't just fine with sample playback or VSTs.
The vocoder sound like a vintage vocoder, and there is no modern mode to add other types of vocal processing and more bands. String machines went out of fashion before they were improved upon, so the string machine part is pretty much as modern as a string machine can be, though for actual strings, it cant compete with sample based solutions.
Old 16th February 2018
  #761
Quote:
Originally Posted by cake100 View Post
If there is going to be say only 1000 made, would it save money to sell direct from the Behringer website?
Not if a company doesn't have all the needed infrastructure in place (think payment systems, shipping, accepting returns etc etc)
Old 16th February 2018
  #762
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firechild View Post
If you need more octaves, just play from a bigger MIDI keyboard
It is as simple as that
Is it? Have you tried playing two notes 4 octaves apart from another keyboard and does that work?

I don't know how the transpose feature is implemented, if the thing already contains dividers etc. for more than 3 octaves (ie. for the entire range it can play) this should be no problem, but if the transpose is implemented by changing the pitch of the top-octave master oscillators somehow increasing the number of octaves would indeed require additional divider circuitry. No idea how much that would cost.

And regarding

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firechild View Post
If you need more octaves, just play from a bigger MIDI keyboard
if someone (like me) wants more octaves he'd be better of if it's a module. I'll just say what I said before: 3 octaves makes it too small for a keyboard, too big for a module. If they're going to give it a keyboard, it should be one that's adequate for the job.
Old 16th February 2018
  #763
Gear Addict
 
tricera's Avatar
 

I'd definitely buy one of these if we were living in normal times. But Uli, you are your greatest competitor. It's 20 more synths on the way? I'd hate to blow a thousand on this then have the ARP 2600 released the next day. In order of GAS .... Synthi, 2600, Wasp. If any of these are announced soon, I'll be keeping my powder dry.

Maybe I'm not the only one thinking this way?



-
Old 16th February 2018
  #764
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MarkR's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamstan View Post
That's good question. If it was the case (VC340 having only 3 octave range), then adding another octave would also require another set of dividers, waveshapers and envelopes. OTOH it has those octave transpose switches and MIDI, so probably envelopes aren't connected directly to keyboard, but instead they are triggered by CPU - and that means that it doesn't have to be restricted by keyboard size.

So, @Uli Behringer or @Firechild - what range does it have?
Don't understand the tech but get that's it's different to typical synths, the range is limited? So it's not just a matter of sticking on more keys to activate the full range, it would need more work internally to be able to play across 4 octaves at the same time?
Old 16th February 2018
  #765
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Heinakroon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR View Post
Don't understand the tech but get that's it's different to typical synths, the range is limited? So it's not just a matter of sticking on more keys to activate the full range, it would need more work internally to be able to play across 4 octaves at the same time?
String machines typically have full polyphony, where you can press all its keys and they all make a sound - like on an organ or a piano.

To be able to offer that without having to have 49 oscillators or more, they used divide down circuits, that took the oscillator signals from the top octave and divided it down octave by octave for the full range of the keyboard.

So yes, for extended range, it would need extra circuits per octave.
Old 16th February 2018
  #766
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkR View Post
Don't understand the tech but get that's it's different to typical synths, the range is limited? So it's not just a matter of sticking on more keys to activate the full range, it would need more work internally to be able to play across 4 octaves at the same time?
I don't know the details but yes it's quite different. Divide-down synths such as this don't have 6 or 8 or whatever VCO or DCO oscillators whose pitch is controlled and are used for all the notes on the keyboard. Rather, they typically have something like 11 master oscillators for the top-octave.

The waveforms from these master oscillators are then fed into divide circuits that halve the frequency for the octave below. I think that those 'divided by two' signals are then fed into another set of dividers for the next octave below and so on. Note that this means that all 'oscillators' are in phase with each other.

I don't know if it's true for all divide-down instruments that were ever made but in principle they have full polyphony, ie. they can sound each and every note on the keyboard simultaneously. To this properly they would need a separate VCA for each individual note. I seem to remember reading that some string synths shared a VCA/envelope for multiple or all notes but that doesn't apply to the VP-330 afaik.
Old 16th February 2018
  #767
Gear Addict
 
Uli Behringer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tricera View Post
I'd definitely buy one of these if we were living in normal times. But Uli, you are your greatest competitor. It's 20 more synths on the way? I'd hate to blow a thousand on this then have the ARP 2600 released the next day. In order of GAS .... Synthi, 2600, Wasp. If any of these are announced soon, I'll be keeping my powder dry.

Maybe I'm not the only one thinking this way?-
Hi Tricera,

that's a fair point but frankly it doesn't really matter to us. Allow me to explain the motivation behind our synth journey:

After 30 years of running a business, I decided to fulfill my lifelong dream - to build all the synths and drum machines I could never afford when I was a kid. Looking at all the feedback, I believe I am not alone.

As you can see we are selling these synths at very low prices and in return it will hopefully create some really happy people. Consider this - if it was such a lucrative business, many other companies would have jumped on this train long ago.
Instead, many competitors use DSPs to keep the component and manufacturing cost real low and instead spend their effort and money on marketing by trying to convince you that “virtual analog” sounds the same as analog when in fact it is digital technology.
As you may have noticed we don't advertise at all, simply because we don't believe in "pay to play" which means getting "great" reviews in return for advertisement dollars. Instead we believe in honest reviews from real customers and in return we love to pass these marketing savings to our customers.

Our mission is to build popular synths such as the Model D but also exotic ones like the VC340. If profit was our purpose, it would be much smarter to stretch the launch of these many synths over a longer period of time. Exactly as you suggested.

We now have 4 incredibly motivated engineering teams and all they care is to showcase their new products. Why would I stop them?

I've read many comments where people believe that recreating these synths is a walk in the forest. Frankly, these statements couldn't be further from the truth and the engineers among you will appreciate that replicating the analog circuitry from these synths is a very small aspect of the actual work. The majority of the effort goes into creating a complete new digital control platform including writing new firmware, designing all mechanical parts and PCB's including prototyping and trouble shooting. Then comes the serious investment in tooling, test jigs, test software and finally compliance testing, spare parts and after-sale service.

I am the first to admit that this is a crazy journey by traditional business means. But I can also tell you it's the most fun we've ever had - and for our people and me that's priceless. The incredible feedback we're receiving from you is so overwhelming that it's worth every effort:-)

Thanks for all your support!

Uli

P.S. Even though we haven't collected orders for 1,000 units yet, I have decided to produce the VC340 regardless and at a MAP of US$ 799.99. Hopefully we won’t lose too much money!

Last edited by Uli Behringer; 16th February 2018 at 02:36 PM..
Old 16th February 2018
  #768
I'd be glad to buy one. Of course, it's a long time until it would be released, and there will be much competition (for studio space and budget) down the road. As tricera mentioned above, Behringer is its own biggest competitor, as so many synths are planned to be released, but I'm not sure everyone will be able to buy them all. That said, I want the VC340.
Old 16th February 2018
  #769
Gear Nut
I also would like to know how the keyboard range works over midi and the VCA envelope question (I think it will be one VCA/VCF for all the notes which is a shame as this was one of the only downfalls of the VP330 & RS505).
Old 16th February 2018
  #770
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
...

P.S. Even though we haven't collected the 1,000 piece order yet, I have decided to produce the VC340 regardless and at a MAP of US$ 799.99. Hopefully we won’t lose too much money!
Oh Heck Yeah!
Old 16th February 2018
  #771
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
Even though we haven't collected the 1,000 piece order yet, I have decided to produce the VC340 regardless and at a MAP of US$ 799.99. Hopefully we won’t lose too much money!
Wow, I'm in definitely now. Danke Uli!
Old 16th February 2018
  #772
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
The positive feedback we're receiving is so overwhelming that it's worth every effort:-)
Only going by Firechild's short video example, you seem to have nailed the sound of the VP330 and I'm sure that the VC340 will sell in quantities (if only to me!).
Old 16th February 2018
  #773
Gear Addict
 
tricera's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
Hi Tricera,

that's a fair point but frankly it doesn't really matter to us. Allow me to explain the motivation behind our synth journey:

After 30 years of running a business, I decided to fulfill my lifelong dream - to build all the synths and drum machines I could never afford when I was a kid. Looking at all the feedback, I believe I am not alone.

As you can see we are selling these synths at very low prices and in return it will hopefully create some really happy people. Consider this - if it was such a lucrative business, many other companies would have jumped on this train long ago. Instead, many competitors use DSPs to keep the circuitry and manufacturing cost real low and instead spend their money on marketing by trying to convince you that “virtual analog” technology sounds the same as analog when in fact it is digital technology.

Our mission is to build popular synths such as the Model D but also exotic ones like the VC340. If profit was our purpose, it would be much smarter to stretch the launch of these many synths over a longer period of time.

We now have 4 incredibly motivated engineering teams and all they care is to showcase their new products.

I've read many comments where people believe that recreating these synths is a walk in the forest. Frankly, these statements couldn't be further from the truth and the engineers among you will appreciate that replicating the analog circuitry is a very small aspect of the actual work. The majority of the effort goes into creating a complete new control digital platform including writing new firmware, designing all mechanical and PCB's aspects including prototyping and trouble shooting. Then comes the serious investment in tooling, test jigs, writing test software and finally paying for compliance testing and spare parts and after-sale service.

I am the first to admit that this is crazy journey by traditional business measures. But I can also tell you it's a lot of fun - and for our people and me that's priceless. The positive feedback we're receiving is so overwhelming that it's worth every effort:-)

Thanks for all your support!

Uli

P.S. Even though we haven't collected the 1,000 piece order yet, I have decided to produce the VC340 regardless and at a MAP of US$ 799.99. Hopefully we won’t lose too much money!
Hey Uli

Believe me, you are fulfilling plenty dreams, especially for us older fellas. I literally have trouble believing the synths I'm seeing announced and proposed, inculding the VC340. Please keep them coming. I doubt very much you'll have trouble selling 1000 units.

My only gripe is that there's nowhere to pre-order stuff in Japan!


-
Old 16th February 2018
  #774
Gear Addict
 
Uli Behringer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan_01uk View Post
I also would like to know how the keyboard range works over midi and the VCA envelope question (I think it will be one VCA/VCF for all the notes which is a shame as this was one of the only downfalls of the VP330 & RS505).
Hi Jonathan,

thanks for your question.

The Vc340 is a 49-note fully polyphonic synthesizer. While the keyboard is 3 octaves, there is a switch that allows you to shift the range by one octave. Thsi means you can access all 49 keys via Midi and an external keyboard or sequencer.

I hope this helps.

Uli
Old 16th February 2018
  #775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
P.S. Even though we haven't collected orders for 1,000 units yet, I have decided to produce the VC340 regardless and at a MAP of US$ 799.99. Hopefully we won’t lose too much money!
Old 16th February 2018
  #776
Here for the gear
 

Signing my name on the wall as someone who would buy this thing. I don't have any stringers but have always loved the sound. For me it would mean adding a welcomed color to my palette. I am also into vintage gear, but I'd prefer to buy new with this kind of instrument as I get the impression that old string machines can be a lot to maintain.
Old 16th February 2018
  #777
Lives for gear
 
WozNYC's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post

P.S. Even though we haven't collected orders for 1,000 pieces yet, I have decided to produce the VC340 regardless and at a MAP of US$ 799.99.
At that price, I'll be forced to make the room for it.
Under-promise and over-deliver. That's the way to do things.
Amazing.
Old 16th February 2018
  #778
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MarkR's Avatar
 

Uli is literally making dreams come true, crying with joy right now
Old 16th February 2018
  #779
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MarkR's Avatar
 

It sounds so good that there's no way it won't sell plenty, but even if it didn't, doing this has to strengthen the Behringer brand so much
Old 16th February 2018
  #780
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
The Vc340 is a 49-note fully polyphonic synthesizer
That is good to hear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
While the keyboard is 3 octaves
Is this set in stone? Or is there any chance you will consider changing it to 4 octaves? A 3 octave version seems to be at the bottom of almost everybody's preference list.

Regardless, I'm happy you've decided to go ahead and produce this thing and at such a low price of $800 . It's tempting, but I would be even more tempted by an $850 4 octave version.

Since you have now made this decission, any ballpark guess as to when this will become available? Would a year from now be realistic?
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