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Behringer Mini model D? A good idea? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 3rd March 2017
  #61
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Zaphod Betamax's Avatar
This entire topic is speculation at best, and never-gonna-happen at worst.
move-on-nothing-to-see!
Old 3rd March 2017
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosium View Post
People are really ungrounded when it comes to the costs of product design and actually releasing one. Behringer won't get anywhere near $50, $200, or $500 because they want to not lose money.

Uli is definitely feeding into the myth with marketing statements like those, which is a bit off putting. He's telling people what they want to hear and not making promises he intends on keeping.

That's pretty trashy.
It is component cost only, Uli is mentioning, right? Not product design, assembly, marketing/distribution and what not.

I am with fiddle on this. Cannot see the harm or reason for outcry of a cheap model D being made.
Old 3rd March 2017
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barbee View Post
It is component cost only, Uli is mentioning, right? Not product design, assembly, marketing/distribution and what not.

I am with fiddle on this. Cannot see the harm or reason for outcry of a cheap model D being made.
I own a classic and have no concerns with "cheap" remakes but being intentionally deceptive by sidestepping the actual costs in self-promotion is what's distasteful. It's not sincere and he has no interest in reaching that low margin market.

It'll be fun to see what he does with his volca clones but stop taking this guy seriously with the other claims.
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Old 3rd March 2017
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosium View Post
I own a classic and have no concerns with "cheap" remakes but being intentionally deceptive by sidestepping the actual costs in self-promotion is what's distasteful. It's not sincere and he has no interest in reaching that low margin market.

It'll be fun to see what he does with his volca clones but stop taking this guy seriously with the other claims.
intentionally deceptive? Seems you are intentionally extrapolating from his statement to fit your narrAtive?
Old 3rd March 2017
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barbee View Post
intentionally deceptive? Seems you are intentionally extrapolating from his statement to fit your narrAtive?
Persons are quoting it to fit just that narrative of theirs, I am not extrapolating anything.

The cost of components is irrelevant to the final end-price and full cost of any device.
Old 3rd March 2017
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
Look as I said earlier I don't think a cheap Model D desktop clone would have any impact on Moog the brand or people who want to pay that money for a Moog, people will always support brands they align themselves with. Tbh I don't believe half of what these manufactures say about making these things by hand, in fact I'm almost sure most are machine made and there is just some light final assembly and testing, they call this being hand made and people fall over themselves to spend wild amounts of money because they believe it was 'hand made'.. a mate of mine actually has a Mini and took some pics of the pcb and claims most of the innards are machine made...I'm not that tech savy but these are the pics of his Mini he sent me..
I would say if they were going to have a machine make it those boards would be 90% surface mount components with a sprinkling of through hole. Those pics show full size chunky carbon film resistors, full size transistors (from a limited supply of NOS ones?), polystyrene caps? Probably the reason why the new Minimoog sounds like the old ones.

Edit: the bean styled resistors are Vishay-Dale CMF60, expensive metal film ones. Looks very similar to the old Minimoog http://secretlifeofsynthesizers.com/minimoog-model-d/
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Old 3rd March 2017
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosium View Post

The cost of components is irrelevant to the final end-price and full cost of any device.
This is the only thing I'm going to disagree with here. The cost of components should have a large bearing on full cost of a product. Much more with small products like synths, than something like cars. But if I am looking into producing a product the first thing I look at are what the components are going to cost me. Then I figure out what the market will buy what I am producing for. The last thing I do is look at man hours/labor. Because if it's not worth it after price of components, why even look into labor?
Old 3rd March 2017
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ktmgen View Post
This is the only thing I'm going to disagree with here. The cost of components should have a large bearing on full cost of a product. Much more with small products like synths, than something like cars. But if I am looking into producing a product the first thing I look at are what the components are going to cost me. Then I figure out what the market will buy what I am producing for. The last thing I do is look at man hours/labor. Because if it's not worth it after price of components, why even look into labor?
Let me rephrase, as I don't argue with that either. "Cheap components" does not mean that an available, sustainable, easily swappable supply exists, nor does it always mean that the finished product will be as cheap as the individual parts. Of course expensive parts can make an expensive end-product.
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Old 4th March 2017
  #69
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fiddlestickz's Avatar
All I know is I would love a Mini Moog, who wouldn't, but simply could never justify $5000, with a wife and two kids and both us working blue collar jobs to make ends meet it would be an insanely selfishly thing to do, even if we could source the money somehow. My studio is pieced together from much smaller cost things that have been recycled over and over again often at a loss just to obtain funds to add to savings to get something new.

If someone came along and offered me a cheap alternative that did not affect our household budget in such a negative way then why shouldn't I try that option. This is a democracy and we live under capitalism, in nearly every other corner of life there are cheaper alternatives to expensive items, they rarely if ever have effect on the sales of these expensive ''el primo" goods so why is electronic music any different..?
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Old 4th March 2017
  #70
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LiveFromKyoto's Avatar
Yes, if they could nail the sound. To me the D is the synthesizer par excellence, but I don't see myself being able to afford Moog's version any time in the next decade.

But without that sound, it's just another one of a mountain of moog-a-like analog monos on the market.
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Old 4th March 2017
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
All I know is I would love a Mini Moog, who wouldn't, but simply could never justify $5000, with a wife and two kids and both us working blue collar jobs to make ends meet it would be an insanely selfishly thing to do, even if we could source the money somehow. My studio is pieced together from much smaller cost things that have been recycled over and over again often at a loss just to obtain funds to add to savings to get something new.

If someone came along and offered me a cheap alternative that did not affect our household budget in such a negative way then why shouldn't I try that option. This is a democracy and we live under capitalism, in nearly every other corner of life there are cheaper alternatives to expensive items, they rarely if ever have effect on the sales of these expensive ''el primo" goods so why is electronic music any different..?
We all spend our money differently. It cetainly doesn't make you a better parent because you spend your money that way.

Some prefer not to spend on small cost items and save for higher cost items.

In my experience things I've had to save and wait for tend to be more special to me. That does not make me a better or worse person.
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Old 4th March 2017
  #72
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Uli Behringer's Avatar
 

Thanks for the great feedback. I certainly respect everyone's opinion and emotions.

Allow me to share my view:

Our loyalty is always with our customers and hence we build what they request. This is what we stand for and this will never change.

The general rule and the law clearly describe that technology is free for everyone to use, provided it is not protected. You may have a different personal view, but that's how our society and every industry works - again why the law has been designed the way it is.

In case of the MiniMoog there is no IP (Intellectual Property) involved as the technology is more than 40 years old and all patents have long expired. As a result, the property is now in the public domain, free for everyone to use. Without this principle there would only be one car or synthesizer manufacturer in the world.
For this exact reason you will find many companies who are manufacturing replicas of all sorts, including the MiniMoog - simply google it.

We believe there are two typical types of customers:

The ones who aspire to purchase the original product and provided they can afford the price, they will buy such a high-priced product.
It is well known marketing knowledge, that lower cost and competing products do contribute to more awareness and hence stimulate both ends of the market.
Many companies such as Tesla, Toyota etc. have now opened their patents to the public domain to allow other manufacturers to enter the same market and actually compete with them.

Open source and open innovation are now trends that you'll find in many industries, simply because the benefit of collaboration outweighs protection of your IP.

https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-p...are-belong-you

Our primary customer is not the well-off doctor or lawyer, but the people with much less income. I was a struggling musician myself when I started my business 30 years ago and I made it my mission in life to enable musicians to pursue their musical dreams without financial obstacles.

This is the reason why we work with extremely slim margins and consequentially our focus must be on achieving high volume production as otherwise we couldn't survive.

When you work with such slim margins, aside from research and development, much effort goes into DFM (Design for Manufacturing), DFC (Design for Cost) and production engineering etc.

We employ over 400 engineers in MUSIC Group and we're hiring 100 more. You will find our engineering facilities in the UK, US, Germany, Canada, Sweden, Denmark, China, Philippines etc. If you're interested, feel free to drop by at our offices and meet our fantastic people.

Perhaps this synth is a great little project to demonstrate how the design process works and I am happy to involve you in the development.
Since the development has been done 40 years ago, it is a rather minimal engineering effort and once we have a working prototype and a projected price, we can then decide whether we will bring this product to market or not.

Someone here in the forum had a great idea to pack this synth into a compact Eurorack format and this coincides with some of our engineers' ideas. I will have our designers to come up with a quick design draft for you to comment on.

Thanks

Uli

Last edited by Uli Behringer; 4th March 2017 at 03:30 PM..
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Old 4th March 2017
  #73
Gear Nut
 

I would buy one. I don't care what name is on a Synth. If it sounds good and hits the right price point...

If they put out a desktop mono like a minimoog for around $1k, I'd buy it right now.
Old 4th March 2017
  #74
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Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
Aren't all monosynths some variation of a Model D?
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Old 4th March 2017
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell View Post
Aren't all monosynths some variation of a Model D?
Despite making me lol, that's actually a great point. I think all self contained synthesizers are technically variations of the original minimoog.

Variation of a modular...? Hahhaaha
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Old 4th March 2017
  #76
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Jamie munro's Avatar
 

@uli If there's going to be a model d similarity made please don't limit it to euro crack, maybe a semi modular version ala ms20 style and if it's happening let it have its own fx but please try VCO over DCO
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Old 4th March 2017
  #77
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Jamie munro's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell View Post
Aren't all monosynths some variation of a Model D?
Technically it's stretching it but yes, kind of like how we are all variations of the first
Old 4th March 2017
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie munro View Post
@uli If there's going to be a model d similarity made please don't limit it to euro crack, maybe a semi modular version ala ms20 style and if it's happening let it have its own fx but please try VCO over DCO
I agree vco for a mono. Id actually like of they made an 8 voice vco as well, if we're reproducing old awesome analogs.
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Old 4th March 2017
  #79
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Thread Starter
I think if Uli decides to go throu with this model D, it will sell like hot cakes, many of us simply cannot afford a real Model D, but something along those lines made affordable, Im IN!
Old 4th March 2017
  #80
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In the end, people moaning about a Model D costing too much have got to realise that a Kia isn't necessarily less well made than a BMW. You pay for the name but also for product development. BMW engines for instance used to always win awards (not sure if they still do as I'm not as much of a car nerd as I was once), and I doubt Kias engines have ever been any more than their view on existing tech.

That doesn't mean that a Kia can't be exactly the car you need. It can also just be the car you can afford, you lose a bit of prestige, a bit of style , a bit of performance etc but you're still avoiding the bus.

Does a 116i cost twice as much to produce as a Cee'd 1.6? I doubt it, but I don't hear anyone bawling that BMW should halve their prices. If anything the people that do have the money enjoy the prestige status and would drift away to Mercedes if BMW were to suddenly become affordable for everyone.

Now change Kia to Behringer, BMW to Moog, and Mercedes to DSI.

Just accept that Moogs are expensive. I can't afford a Model D either. That's not Moog's fault, it's mine for not finishing school and not being career minded as I'd rather try and make it as a musician. But then again I wouldn't be any happier working in a suit and tie job for 50 hrs a week with a barely used Model D in my basement, as I am now rocking out with Microbrutes and Microkorgs...

That's life init
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Old 4th March 2017
  #81
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redloheb's Avatar
 

Not replica but good sounding mono with modern features like presets and extensive modulatuon capabilities. With proper sound, features and price it would be a hit too.
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Old 4th March 2017
  #82
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fiddlestickz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by goony View Post
I think if Uli decides to go throu with this model D, it will sell like hot cakes, many of us simply cannot afford a real Model D, but something along those lines made affordable, Im IN!
I'm deffo in too..
Old 4th March 2017
  #83
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Jamie munro's Avatar
 

Put a duophonic switch in it so it can be mono or duo and make it proper duophonic if possible.
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Old 4th March 2017
  #84
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Uli Behringer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeminIAm View Post
In the end, people moaning about a Model D costing too much have got to realise that a Kia isn't necessarily less well made than a BMW. You pay for the name but also for product development. BMW engines for instance used to always win awards (not sure if they still do as I'm not as much of a car nerd as I was once), and I doubt Kias engines have ever been any more than their view on existing tech.

That doesn't mean that a Kia can't be exactly the car you need. It can also just be the car you can afford, you lose a bit of prestige, a bit of style , a bit of performance etc but you're still avoiding the bus.

Does a 116i cost twice as much to produce as a Cee'd 1.6? I doubt it, but I don't hear anyone bawling that BMW should halve their prices. If anything the people that do have the money enjoy the prestige status and would drift away to Mercedes if BMW were to suddenly become affordable for everyone.

Now change Kia to Behringer, BMW to Moog, and Mercedes to DSI.

Just accept that Moogs are expensive. I can't afford a Model D either. That's not Moog's fault, it's mine for not finishing school and not being career minded as I'd rather try and make it as a musician. But then again I wouldn't be any happier working in a suit and tie job for 50 hrs a week with a barely used Model D in my basement, as I am now rocking out with Microbrutes and Microkorgs...

That's life init
That's an interesting comment. Whatever car brand you like to associate Behringer and other synthesizer manufacturers with, quality and reliability versus perception are often not in sync.

The following report shows, that predominantly Asian car manufacturers demonstrate the highest reliability - including Kia - while BMW and especially Mercedes are way down the list. In many cases the often quoted "you get what you pay for" doesn't hold true.

The Most Reliable Cars On The Road

Once you are in the high volume, low margin business as we are, your risk as a manufacturer dramatically increases and your focus on quality has to be absolutely relentless as there is very little room for error.
Recall and rework cost is always a magnitude higher than prevention and "getting it right the first time". Any systematic failure can wipe you out while other higher priced manufacturers do have more margin left to absorb the cost of potential repairs.

This is the reason why we are one of the very few manufacturers in this industry who run our own manufacturing plant as we have learned that you cannot rely on subcontractors who try to maximize their profit through shortcuts.
With our annual production rate of approx. 5 million units, we always run a high risk and hence our obsessive focus on quality components and reliability.
Over the past years we have heavily invested in automated production lines, optical inspection and x-ray systems coupled with torturous aging and testing routines.

While our products are certainly not free of any defects and never will be, we are proud that our failure rate is now one of the lowest in the industry. As a result we comfortably provide you with a limited 3-year warranty for all our products. But don't take our word for it and verify this with major retailers such as Sweetwater, Thomann, etc.

Uli

Last edited by Uli Behringer; 4th March 2017 at 04:27 PM..
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Old 4th March 2017
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
Look as I said earlier I don't think a cheap Model D desktop clone would have any impact on Moog the brand or people who want to pay that money for a Moog, people will always support brands they align themselves with. Tbh I don't believe half of what these manufactures say about making these things by hand, in fact I'm almost sure most are machine made and there is just some light final assembly and testing, they call this being hand made and people fall over themselves to spend wild amounts of money because they believe it was 'hand made'.. a mate of mine actually has a Mini and took some pics of the pcb and claims most of the innards are machine made...I'm not that tech savy but these are the pics of his Mini he sent me..
Picture attached is from Moog Music, Asheville NC, on the non-RoHS compliant (i.e., leaded-solder) side of the building, taken last year.

Trust me–as a former bench tech in another life, those Lorlin rotary selector switches can be a pain.
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Behringer Mini model D? A good idea?-img_0236.jpg  
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Old 4th March 2017
  #86
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Eigenwert's Avatar
"If the Minimoog patents were not expired, there would be only one synth in the world".

Sorry Uli - what?
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Old 4th March 2017
  #87
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In this case it would be interesting to see something on the lines of a smaller MiniMoog based synth. Something with 3 octaves and less bulky. Definitely have 2/3 lfo's, Memories and a nice little fx section.Another idea would be to have a docking type system on a larger scale to the roland boutique range where you could either buy a full unit or just the desktop/ rackmount. This way the buyer would have 3 options. This could be used for further monos like an Odyssey or pro one. Although the modular market is growing there's still many people who are not into it. Maybe a desktop/rackmount/keyboard option would be able to intergrate with a modular. Just my 2 pence.
Old 4th March 2017
  #88
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Uli ,since when do you give a **** about patents .?
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Old 4th March 2017
  #89
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Again !
Making a new and better 3 VCO mono synth has nothing to do with Moog and copyright - so stop it right now.

A Minimoog is special because of just few things it has that the other monos don't.
1. Somewhere between and including oscillator mixer and the filter - that is where the main timbre enhancing "magic" happens.
2. Fast and clipped envelopes - should be easy to replicate in digital if you add a very short sustain stage between A and D - Synapse Audio did it already in their The Legend VSTi.

So:
  • 3 VCOs (1 of them can act as a LFO, because a real VCO is mandatory for high quality audio rate modulation).
  • Mixer with noise, external in and overdrive.
  • 2 digital LFOs from DM12.
  • 3 digital AS1DS2R envelopes with curve editing taken from DM12, loopable like on SUB37.
  • Small mod matrix from DM12.
  • 12/24dB low pass.
  • Small desktop module and/or portable with SlimPhatty style many buttons plus 1 knob and 1 numerical display UI (and a fully featured and knobbed software/VST editor) - lets save a lot of $ there, because the sound is what is most important.
  • External PSU (unless you determine that internal has a considerably big impact on the "magic").
And don't go overboard with the design, we don't need a monster like Arturia Matrixbrute, just a small mono with great sound and not too many features.
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Old 4th March 2017
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gentleclockdivid View Post
patents
Break a patent and see if you can afford to pay the consequences.
A good businessman knows how dance around patents.
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