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Behringer Mini model D? A good idea? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 1st May 2017
  #3181
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oldgearguy's Avatar
 

I wonder if Mr. Behringer would comment on whether his team used the values of the components direct from the printed schematics or whether they took apart a working OG MiniMoog and measured actual values.

Given the tolerances back in the day, I would venture to guess that printed vs. actual might be different enough to matter.

Or whether they might have taken an in between approach and started with the printed and then made in circuit comparisons and tweaked from there.

And just to add a bit of observational trivia - it takes the same amount of time for my lava lamp to start moving as it does for my MiniMoog to warm up and stabilize, so I use the lava lamp as a timer.

Lol
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3182
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Coorec's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgearguy View Post
I wonder if Mr. Behringer would comment on whether his team used the values of the components direct from the printed schematics or whether they took apart a working OG MiniMoog and measured actual values.

Given the tolerances back in the day, I would venture to guess that printed vs. actual might be different enough to matter.

Or whether they might have taken an in between approach and started with the printed and then made in circuit comparisons and tweaked from there.

And just to add a bit of observational trivia - it takes the same amount of time for my lava lamp to start moving as it does for my MiniMoog to warm up and stabilize, so I use the lava lamp as a timer.

Lol
I'd guess printed value is the only reasonable approach. Measuring a vintage one would lead to a lot of discussions wether to take an early or late model D for their individual advantages/disadvantages. It'd nearly come down to taste.

But if they find it difficult to reproduce the sound, this might be a good starting point to look for solutions.
Old 1st May 2017
  #3183
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fiddlestickz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgearguy View Post
I wonder if Mr. Behringer would comment on whether his team used the values of the components direct from the printed schematics or whether they took apart a working OG MiniMoog and measured actual values.

Given the tolerances back in the day, I would venture to guess that printed vs. actual might be different enough to matter.

Or whether they might have taken an in between approach and started with the printed and then made in circuit comparisons and tweaked from there.

And just to add a bit of observational trivia - it takes the same amount of time for my lava lamp to start moving as it does for my MiniMoog to warm up and stabilize, so I use the lava lamp as a timer.

Lol
They have both a working Moog on the bench and the schematics..
Old 1st May 2017
  #3184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
They have both a working Moog on the bench and the schematics..
I know that, but it didn't answer my question of what they did to get from point A to point B.
Old 1st May 2017
  #3185
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I really hope Uli takes the time and gets this right. Don't rush. The minimoog has been around for 45 years, we can wait. If it takes an extra 6 months to get the thing to sound exactly like a minimoog then take that time. If you want to just barge ahead and make money by claiming you did everything you could to copy the schematics but then don't take the time to develop the clone to sound right, then you need to reevaluate what you are willing to call a clone. Please, just get it right, and don't sell yourself short. Show us you are more than just about money. I want a $400 minimoog. Not a $400 generic synth.

And btw, I'll ask again. Can you please add a mod amount knob? Otherwise the the noise, osc3, and extra lfo are useless for people who want to use the thing without a midi mod wheel.
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3186
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Uli Behringer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgearguy View Post
I know that, but it didn't answer my question of what they did to get from point A to point B.
I just saw your question and please allow me to comment.

We have a new Model D Reissue on our workbench which we compared to the original schematics. You will find that some minor changes were made.

Our version is based on the same circuitry, component values and tolerances of the Reissue Model, which uses all modern and easily available components. What we also found is that in the Reissue Model, components are to a large extent auto-inserted - some even with SMT packaging.

Someone earlier asked about the accessibility of the trim pots in order to calibrate the unit. I can confirm that all VR's are easily accessible from the back of the PCB once the unit is removed from the casing.

Uli

Last edited by Uli Behringer; 1st May 2017 at 01:24 PM..
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coorec View Post

Sorry Scott, but i dont get your argument. Standard industry parts are not worse than special parts.
Is that always the case?
I mean right now I need a replacement floppy drive for an old sampler.
The great original part is almost impossible to find. The commonly available part is frankly, crap.
My theory sounds just as much of a stretch as yours proposing that commonly available parts are better
than harder-to-source parts.
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3188
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Reginator's Avatar
Uli also posted this in response to a few questions I had weeks ago. Lots of good info here for how they're going about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
Hi Reginator,

Thank you for the questions.

Let me start by saying if you assemble the same circuitry with components of the same specifications you will get the same audio results. Whether these are through-hole or SMT components is of no impact.

Our goal is to build a unit that sounds identical to the Moog D reissue. For this purpose we acquired a unit, reverse engineered it in order to compare it with the original circuitry as well as to evaluate component specifications. We recently published the schematics so you can compare the circuitry for yourself.

Our Model D synth will be using high-quality 1% metal film resistors throughout the whole design and in some parts of the oscillator circuitry, we will be using even components with 0.1% tolerance – exactly in line with the reference model. In order to keep the oscillators stable, we have selected quite expensive Polyphenyline Sulphide capacitors which have very low temperature dependencies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_capacitor

Our design will also feature matched JFET’s and other high-quality semiconductors from reputable manufacturers. Even if some companies claim that they use components which are “sourced” in the US, the chance they are actually made in China or other Asian places is very high.
In today’s time almost all electronic components are made in the Far East. For example the Model D Reissue uses VR’s made by Taiwan Alpha, a Chinese vendor we are also using for our products.

Because analog components do have inherent tolerances which accumulate when combined in a circuitry, multiple trimmers are required in the Model D design, and hence you will find the same trimmers in our design.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimmer_(electronics)

These trimmers are set during the manufacturing and testing procedure and like in the reference design, their purpose is to calibrate oscillator and filter frequencies, VCA gain and cross-feed, etc.
We might be publishing the testing and calibration procedures for all the electronic savvy people among you, but you can also simply refer to the original service manual.

Will it sound the same?

Well, we’ll leave this answer to you and also some synth experts we are planning to invite for a “double blind” test which is one of the most objective ways to remove bias and “fairy dust”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment

Uli
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3189
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Coorec's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wozniak View Post
Is that always the case?
I mean right now I need a replacement floppy drive for an old sampler.
The great original part is almost impossible to find. The commonly available part is frankly, crap.
My theory sounds just as much of a stretch as yours proposing that commonly available parts are better
than harder-to-source parts.
Sorry, a misunderstanding perhaps. I had resistor, capacitators, transistors, opamps and such things in mind.

Everything data transfer related just sucks.. i went thru this ordeal myself with my samplers.
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3190
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daviddever's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wozniak View Post
Is that always the case?
I mean right now I need a replacement floppy drive for an old sampler.
The great original part is almost impossible to find. The commonly available part is frankly, crap.
My theory sounds just as much of a stretch as yours proposing that commonly available parts are better
than harder-to-source parts.
This was true twenty-five years ago, as well–the quality of floppy drives varied wildly even for new builds, independent of whether the device was a PC/Mac, sampler, industrial device, etc.

When cost is the sole factor, the cheaper-to-purchase, "good enough" device always wins. Fortunately, that's not always the deciding factor....
Old 1st May 2017
  #3191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
I just saw your question and please allow me to comment.

We have a new Model D Reissue on our workbench which we compared to the original schematics. You will find that some minor changes were made.

Our version is based on the same circuitry, component values and tolerances of the Reissue Model, which uses all modern and easily available components. What we also found is that in the Reissue Model, components are to a large extent auto-inserted - some even with SMT packaging.

Someone earlier asked about the accessibility of the trim pots in order to calibrate the unit. I can confirm that all VR's are easily accessible from the back of the PCB once the unit is removed from the casing.

Uli
Thank you sir for taking the time to read through all of this and respond. Looking forward to hearing the final production version.
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3192
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Originally Posted by OurDarkness View Post
But when I see kids coming in service departments to get their Behringer compressor fixed and there's a LED inside to fool the unaware buyer into thinking that tubes increase their intensity when boosting the make-up gain
Some other examples of companies you need to berate, then:

Yamaha. Their THR amps are digital but have warm red LEDs inside the grills to make you think there are glowing tubes in there:



Roland. The Boss WAZA amp is an incredibly expensive digital amp that they sell "tone capsules" for. They are basically an SDcard in a tube like packaging.. and they glow for no reason:





I'm sure there are countless tube based distortion pedals that light up the tube when activated. The point is sometimes things are for aesthetic reasons, rather than trying to be a deception.
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3193
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertflyer View Post
I really hope Uli takes the time and gets this right. Don't rush. The minimoog has been around for 45 years, we can wait. If it takes an extra 6 months to get the thing to sound exactly like a minimoog then take that time. If you want to just barge ahead and make money by claiming you did everything you could to copy the schematics but then don't take the time to develop the clone to sound right, then you need to reevaluate what you are willing to call a clone. Please, just get it right, and don't sell yourself short. Show us you are more than just about money. I want a $400 minimoog. Not a $400 generic synth.

And btw, I'll ask again. Can you please add a mod amount knob? Otherwise the the noise, osc3, and extra lfo are useless for people who want to use the thing without a midi mod wheel.
I agree 100%, and at least in terms of publicity/interest this clone will be considered a measure of how close Behringer can get. If it's a miss (whatever is a miss for anybody) it can lower interest for the next clones to come, but if he nails it, a lot of people will get exited about the upcoming line Good luck to B !
And I know that the success (or not) of this one is not a garanty of what will happen for the others but it will set the tone for many. Ithink it was a good move to clone the MM first.
Old 1st May 2017
  #3194
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wozniak View Post
Is that always the case?
I mean right now I need a replacement floppy drive for an old sampler.
The great original part is almost impossible to find. The commonly available part is frankly, crap.
My theory sounds just as much of a stretch as yours proposing that commonly available parts are better
than harder-to-source parts.
I think Coorec's point was that quality is not related to availability, and if its the case I agree. The same thing can be said that you cannot generalize that old is better than new. It depends.
And on the same subject, I think that with stuff that become commodity/common use, people tend to forget that there is still difference in quality. Lotsa poeple are surprised when told that there can be big quality difference between memory keys (usb) for example, but I used enough of them to see the difference.
The problem with floppy drive today is that so few poeple use them that possibly all the good cie got out of that business. Try finding a good VCR
Old 1st May 2017
  #3195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
You like thick women..??? lol..
Let's just say I like some parts thicker than others....

Let's keep it respectful. No need to take the thread further down that rabbit hole.
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatB View Post
To marcgood, and me thinking you knew something about making music (yeah you never said so, I assumed), if you dont understand that the most important part of Mutantt's comment is "produced", then there is no point trying to explain ...
I know full well the difference between production and dry sounding. The point of posting that video was to show what the end result of the Moog sound is. I've already posted a dry video for the original D and the reissue. ALL of these videos show a superior sound to Uli's D.

We'll have to wait and see how close he gets.
Old 1st May 2017
  #3197
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Posted this in another thread to address the false belief it costs Moog $200 to build a Model D.



It may cost Uli that since his is built in China with automation. By hand in America costs a lot more.
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3198
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asynchro_nous's Avatar
 

No one ever said the total cost is $200.
Old 1st May 2017
  #3199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wagoo View Post
Some other examples of companies you need to berate, then...
Definitely. When we see a new thread about it, why not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wagoo View Post
The point is sometimes things are for aesthetic reasons, rather than trying to be a deception.
We can discuss aesthetics for ages, but for me personally there is no such thing as Behringer aesthetics.
Old 1st May 2017
  #3200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcgood View Post
Posted this in another thread to address the false belief it costs Moog $200 to build a Model D.

It may cost Uli that since his is built in China with automation. By hand in America costs a lot more.
I see some Employees who Screw some pre-built Parts together and and put it in Boxes.
Where is the higher Value , maybe the Boxes..
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3201
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
You like thick women..??? lol..
Thick means heavy set in US. and stupid in UK. I guess in AUS too
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3202
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Spectral Climax's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uli Behringer View Post
I just saw your question and please allow me to comment.

We have a new Model D Reissue on our workbench which we compared to the original schematics. You will find that some minor changes were made.

Our version is based on the same circuitry, component values and tolerances of the Reissue Model, which uses all modern and easily available components. What we also found is that in the Reissue Model, components are to a large extent auto-inserted - some even with SMT packaging.

Someone earlier asked about the accessibility of the trim pots in order to calibrate the unit. I can confirm that all VR's are easily accessible from the back of the PCB once the unit is removed from the casing.

Uli
Hi Uli, thank you for your comments and the insight you give us about the "D" synthesizer design/production.

Are you aware of the sonic differences between the Model D re-issue and the D prototype we heard at Superbooth? It's obvious (to me) when I hear video demos of the Model D re-issue and your prototype, that the "D" doesn't sound similar to the new Model D re-issue at all. I understand that we talk about an non-calibrated prototype, but, I wanted to mention it, because you seem very confident when you talk about component properties and you never mention acoustic calibration (a/b tests by ear).

I believe that this type of calibration is the most crucial and I hope that you won't put your signature for the final production before you hear a prototype with a reasonably similar tone to that of a Model D re-issue. We talk about a living part of synthesizer history here. It will be a small revolution if you manage to make it sound close to the original.
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pppch View Post
I see some Employees who Screw some pre-built Parts together and and put it in Boxes.
Where is the higher Value , maybe the Boxes..
The metal is fabricated here in the US. The wood is fabricated in the US. The boards are print and assembled in the US. It is all assembled, calibrated, and tuned by hand in the US. And these are never going to be sold in huge quantities. With that said how much does each layer cost Moog? None of us know for sure. But given how many units they'll sell per year, likely around a thousand or so, it doesn't take a genius to see that the cost per unit will be high relative to doing mass production in China with the intent to sell tens of thousands per year.

Does it cost them $3500 to build these? Of course not. But imo it would run at least a thousand per considering how these are sourced and constructed. I assume their profit is around $1000-1500 or so after you consider the other costs of shipping, marketing, etc. For perspective Porsche clears around $18K per every $99K charged. BMW and Mercedes do $5000 profit per car on average. Ever price a tailor made suit? That'll be $1000-10,000. So while the price is high, it's not unusual for a hand-built luxury product.
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discopotato View Post
And Moog likely fuels the whole local economy with Tourism revenue as well. It's great for them that their markup covers those costs for the workers and their families in ONE TINY CITY IN THE SOUTH
...which is where I stopped reading. The rest is inappropriate and off-topic.
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3205
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
Thick means heavy set in US. and stupid in UK. I guess in AUS too


Yeah... means attractively heavy pretty much throughout the US and Latin America. Had no idea it was anything else.
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discopotato View Post
And Moog likely fuels the whole local economy with Tourism revenue as well. It's great for them that their markup covers those costs for the workers and their families in ONE TINY CITY IN THE SOUTH, but from a global perspective Behringer employs 5x as many engineers who earned degrees as Moog does humans. How many Chinese people have been saved from the famines that once killed MILLIONS in China under Mao's authoritarian rule when manufacturers went off-shore and paid those people SOMETHING? What are the rates of Obesity and obesity related illnesses in the South? So we're expected to pay for THAT in addition to the actual instruments? I'll pass. They definitely won't starve I know that much.
And with this you've jumped the shark.

There are essentially two business models available, in the basic sense. You can either focus on high profitability and low volume or you can go for low profitability but make it up with high volume. Neither way is bad. It just comes down to your brand and what the buying public expects of your brand. Behringer is associated with low cost historically so obviously that is the path available to them. Moog is associated with being a high priced low volume brand so obviously that is their path. By not going the China/Thailand/Malaysia/etc route Moog could never be priced as Behringer. So why hate on Moog?

Btw, there are several mistakes in your post when you talk about China and such but that's way too far off topic to correct.
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3207
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The Minimoog electronics is produced by a company that makes also mattress covers and door locks, lol. All PCBs are assembled my machine and not by hand which they say. It is one big marketing show/ Most electronic components come from China anyway. All they do is assembling a few boards into a metal and wood box and charge a high price.

Electronic Assembly | Locks | Mattress Covers | Asheville, NC | Hendersonville, NC
Old 1st May 2017
  #3208
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I have been very, very happy about the design choices of the Behringer D and the prospect of a wonderful product. But: Concerning the "D" i wasn't aware that Behringer reverse-engeneered a CURRENT PRODUCT and copy this. No, i don't think this is a fair business practise. Usually i defend Behringer.

Not here.

I don't mind if they copy products which are 20 or 30 years old. This case is a bit different, and i am quite sure the reverse-engeneering helped Behringer to reduce development costs.

I am not an expert for electronic components, or the production of products like this. Maybe this is a common business tactic. I just don't consider it as fair competing. And yes, i know, that the original blue print is quite older. The point is: Behringer reduced development cost when they reversed-engeneered the current product from Moog Music.

At least they should pay some license fee in respect for the work of other people.
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Old 1st May 2017
  #3209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcgood View Post
I know full well the difference between production and dry sounding. The point of posting that video was to show what the end result of the Moog sound is. I've already posted a dry video for the original D and the reissue. ALL of these videos show a superior sound to Uli's D.

We'll have to wait and see how close he gets.
You previous answer really made me think you did not know the difference, I have no idea of your background after all. Sorry to have (mis)judged with little info.
I have to say that all the previous videos of Moog equipment sounded "produced" to me (although I have no professionnal experience) and therefore less than ideal to compare, until I heard Mike Dean video mentionning the sound was dry ! And its was "only" M32s (although he had 6 to play with) !
B still have a lot of work to do, but I hopefull, as my hope is for "close enough"
Old 1st May 2017
  #3210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddever View Post
...which is where I stopped reading. The rest is inappropriate and off-topic.
It's gone. Good call.
Moog is a significant player in the local Tourism economy as much as the music production industry.
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