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Akai MPCX Drum Machines & Samplers
Old 15th January 2017
  #271
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Thanks Simon,

Can you quickly zoom all the way out?

Does moving by x1000 let you move all the way along a sample of say 300,000 samples with either a single turn or two? Maschine moves across a percentage, so zoomed out it moves across many samples, but zoomed in it moves in finer units.

Can you zoom in to either the start or end?
Old 15th January 2017
  #272
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Coorec's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
I just don't think that the OT and Toraiz are trying to be ""Backing track, Midi sequencer and sampler" in the same way that the MPC is.
If they were not meant to be, they would not have midi tracks, sampler tracks backing tracks, input tracks etc.. They do tho.

But they limited polyphonic sequencing, number of tracks (so you always have to choose) etc. I am sure the filter is better at the Toraiz, i am sure the loop manglinng is better at the OT. But they were certainly meant to fill other roles too. They just are not very good at it. It remains to be seen how good the MPCs will be. How other competitors like NI or may be even Roland or Behringer might answer to this markets needs.

I am very open minded when it comes to gear. Would like to have it all. But i am also open eyed to see strengths and weaknesses alike.

I like Elektron for delivering gear no one else was catering at this time. But things have changed. Lots of gear is out now, there is a lot of competition going on.
And in all this the Elektron devices do look rather old. They made a lot of compromises and would sell anyways due to lack of competition.

But now, i am quite sure Drumbrute and friends already left an impression on Rytm (or Tempest) sales. I am sure DM12, Sys-8, JD-XA left an impression on the AK (or P8). I am sure Toraiz and MPC will have an impact on the OT.

The days of compromise-products are gone. Elektron has to find a way to improve their data structure as well as their user interfaces. Else they will become more and more obsolete. They have good, but pricey products. Pricey means you can sell them if they are perfect. But under current market condistions, they are not. I only talk about new sales btw.

I dont think its worth to switch to MPC or whatever if you already own an OT. knowing a device is a value in itself.
Old 15th January 2017
  #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coorec View Post
If they were not meant to be, they would not have midi tracks, sampler tracks backing tracks, input tracks etc.. They do tho.
The MIDI sequencing capabilities in the Toraiz, for example, are extremely limited compared to the MPC.

I don't think that Pioneer are trying to make the MIDI sequencing capabilities in the Toraiz to be on the same level as the MPC.

They are different products, aimed at different users, and are not trying to do exactly the same things.

Just because the MPC and the Toraiz both are samplers with MIDI sequencers, they are not trying to be, and do, the same thing.

The MPC is a reasonably fully featured MIDI sequencer, the OT and Toraiz are not.

If you can't see the difference between the features on these products, and that they are not trying to do exactly the same thing, then I am obviously not going to be able to convince you of the same, so I'll leave you to your expectation that these boxes should do exactly the same things, and that they are aimed at exactly the same users, for exactly the same usage. I just don't agree at all.
Old 15th January 2017
  #274
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Coorec's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
The MIDI sequencing capabilities in the Toraiz, for example, are extremely limited compared to the MPC.

I don't think that Pioneer are trying to make the MIDI sequencing capabilities in the Toraiz to be on the same level as the MPC.

They are different products, aimed at different users, and are not trying to do exactly the same things.

Just because the MPC and the Toraiz both are samplers with MIDI sequencers, they are not trying to be, and do, the same thing.

The MPC is a reasonably fully featured MIDI sequencer, the OT and Toraiz are not.

If you can't see the difference between the features on these products, and that they are not trying to do exactly the same thing, then I am obviously not going to be able to convince you of the same, so I'll leave you to your expectation that these boxes should do exactly the same things, and that they are aimed at exactly the same users, for exactly the same usage. I just don't agree at all.
We dont disagree on that. Why would i not see the differences? Of course i do and said so. The Toraiz and the OT are rather similar in what they want to bring to the table for midi sequencing. Pioneer even stated that they want to mimick the OT midi and function wise. But both are probably outmatched by the MPC.

Given that the MPC is also king when it comes to connections, that leaves the question what are they better at than the MPC to justify the same price range or even more? Real time loop mangling for the OT and an analog filter on the Toraiz. These are just slight differences considering the whole spectrum of functions.

And thats my point. Due to its competitive package the MPC forces other companies to react as they feel dated in comparison and are quite pricey.
Old 15th January 2017
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coorec View Post
And thats my point. Due to its competitive package the MPC forces other companies to react as they feel dated in comparison and are quite pricey.
Not if Elektron designed the OT to be good at "Real time loop mangling", Pioneer designed the Toraiz mainly to add sample playback to their DJ ecosystem, and they see them aimed at different users, for different uses.

If they don't think they are trying to compete with the MPC, then they are not forced to do anything in response to it.
Old 15th January 2017
  #276
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Coorec's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
If they don't think they are trying to compete with the MPC, then they are not forced to do anything in response to it.
If their sales are not affected and enough for them you may be right. I doubt that tho. I'd have bought an OT or a Toraiz to replace my ageing Maschine controller, if the MPC didnt come to existence.

Now i'll finish the already planned and auditioned gigs til end of march with Maschine and probably go with the Live after that. There is still a silent hope in me for a stand alone Maschine, since i wouldnt need to lern everything anew. But the Live is real already.
Old 15th January 2017
  #277
Gear Addict
 

To be fair, one look over at Elektronauts and you'll see that the new MPC's are likely to eat into the user base. The OT does do things these MPCs can still only dream of but it does fall woefully short on many other features.

So no, there is no direct competition in the same way that, I dunno, a Deepmind competes with a DSI offering but they do compete if looking for a centerpiece for a home/live set up.
Old 15th January 2017
  #278
Gear Guru
 
fiddlestickz's Avatar
I think a lot of Octatrack users will sell up to buy a new MPC, the screen and file management on the Octatrack is a joke..
Old 15th January 2017
  #279
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NuG3nda's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kvmoore View Post
You took the words right out of my mouth. As a user of the MPC4000, I'm wondering exactly the same.

Plus, why only 6 individual analog outs plus the two main outs (8 total) on MPC X instead of 8 individual out plus the two mains for a total of 10 like on the previous models, including the 5000 and the 2500? Also, I wonder is the "MIDI over USB" support would allow for external multiport midi interfaces for expanded midi I/O, like an 8x8 motu express or something similar. If that's possible, that would be SWEET!! No more computer sequencing.

Apart from that, this thing looks great spec wise. Only time will tell.
unfortunately (from screen shoots of the mpc software 2.0) it looks like its a simple 2x envelope + 1 x lfo engine ... I guess they want to keep it dead simple, and to their defense you can use round robin and irregular track lengths for modulation to simulate a mod matrix .. but I would have though that a cutoff per layer would have been a no brainier, an uber useful tool when layering!


I will say though that the new akai sound is more musical vs the old sound, at least when A/B ing imported samples from my 4k the mpc softwhere sounded round and smooth vs the bright crisp sound of the 4k, I still love the vinyl at 24/96 on the 4k really crisp and so alive if you know your way around the mod matrix

I still think and additional eq stage per pad in the new models would have been very useful in 2017 ... the tripple filter in the 4k was always in use just to eq/smooth things out on my programs ..

I was also disappointed in the translation between the 4k programs and the soft where ... the 4k is absolutely amazing for layering and for sampling..


My main questions now is, can clip mode trigger sequence/midi tracks or is it just for audio loops, also can their triggered resolution be set independently to try out different rhythmic variants

And will there be some sort of arrangement view on the hardwhere? .. I just have a hard time believe they´d stick to the tracker like song mode when so many MPC heads where tracking to DAWs just for the connivance of line like song arrangement


Will say though; it´s looking good, really good,.. I really hope to see Dan the man (including body guards) at Namm,.. thought that guy was very friendly and had a super nice vibe, seams like the kinda guy you´d end up doing some lines with and cheeking out a girl on girl mud wrestling match after the namm show.. I get this feeling of Andy Mac that he´d just get drunk, talk loud about his old breakbeat days, hit on your girlfriend and get caught pissing in the salad dressing ...
sorry bad story
Old 15th January 2017
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaveItAll View Post
Can you quickly zoom all the way out?

Does moving by x1000 let you move all the way along a sample of say 300,000 samples with either a single turn or two? Maschine moves across a percentage, so zoomed out it moves across many samples, but zoomed in it moves in finer units.

Can you zoom in to either the start or end?
That must have been a photo of an earlier version that I grabbed from the net.

Current version has Zoom, Scroll, and Select Slice on Q-Links as well.

Zoom goes all the way in, to all the way out.

It will zoom to the start if that is the last Q-Link you used, or to the end if that is the last Q-Link you used. Once zoomed in, you can switch from start to end, or end to start, just by touching one of the start or end Q-Links, as they are touch sensitive.

Don't have a Renaissance in front of me, to be able to comment on how many x1000 turns to move along a long sample, maybe someone else can comment on that.
Old 15th January 2017
  #281
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ImNotDedyet's Avatar
If I'd drank the Octatrak koolaid and really figured it out, I'd think the Octatrak would be a great companion to one of the new MPCs - sequencer timed by the MPC so you can still P-Lock some samples and mangle the hell out of them.
Old 15th January 2017
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEXUS-6 View Post
No 4000 was the first MPC to offer that.
The EMU E4 series allows QWERTY Keybowr stir both patch naming and navigation.

Best sampler UI ever for me
Old 15th January 2017
  #283
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The Hamburglar's Avatar
 

Assuming the MPC Live isn't some unusable buggy disaster for years, I will sell my Octatrack to buy it instead. I want a sampler / sequencer that I can perform with. To say they're competitive products doesn't mean they're exactly the same, but they are definitely offering very similar core functions.
Old 15th January 2017
  #284
mp3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco Cubist View Post
The EMU E4 series allows QWERTY Keybowr stir both patch naming and navigation.

Best sampler UI ever for me
Yeah, very transparent and intuitive UI, but after using one for a while (e5000), I felt like there were too many hitches in the way (e.g. previewing sample edits in context) for it to be optimal for phrase sampling. And it was a shame because they sound gorgeous.

Last edited by mp3; 15th January 2017 at 09:21 PM..
Old 15th January 2017
  #285
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Circuitt's Avatar
 

I believe the 2000xl has pad mutes you can use as a clip launcher well (bar/seq) mute/unmute (same thing). But I think it starts at the end of the current seq playing. As with the x/live you can detrimine bars/steps till next launch. It's been a while since I used one. But the 2000 is capable for using to play live. But getting all the sample in time on the 2000 itself is quite a task, compared to things like warp/time stretch that take a lot of the tedious work out of it.
Old 15th January 2017
  #286
Quote:
Originally Posted by NuG3nda View Post
unfortunately (from screen shoots of the mpc software 2.0) it looks like its a simple 2x envelope + 1 x lfo engine ... I guess they want to keep it dead simple
ah that's a pity if so. dont think its intent for simple as much as watching total cpu headroom and cheaping out on less obvious places.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuG3nda View Post
My main questions now is, can clip mode trigger sequence/midi tracks or is it just for audio loops, also can their triggered resolution be set independently to try out different rhythmic variants
i'd like to know as well. its a crucial question as, hypothetically, i'd use it mostly to sequence external gear.

well, since Ableton does it, and they were obviously glancing at it when designing this.. i have hope.
Old 15th January 2017
  #287
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImNotDedyet View Post
If I'd drank the Octatrak koolaid and really figured it out, I'd think the Octatrak would be a great companion to one of the new MPCs - sequencer timed by the MPC so you can still P-Lock some samples and mangle the hell out of them.
agreed. very complementary combination. OT lacks the bread n butter stuff like lots a polyphony for sampled instruments, bigger screen for complex arrangemnts etc but excels at mangling, p-locking and on the spot creation.

since i need cv/gate but find mpcx too big, i am considering mpclive + engine instead. two boxes aren't as elegant, but have to check first if i can somehow have mpc send commands to engine to change patterns and/or scenes, so i can have simultaneous shifts in arrangement. btw, is OT sequencer capable of receiving pattern/scene selection commands externally?
Old 15th January 2017
  #288
mp3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clusterchord View Post
ah that's a pity if so. dont think its intent for simple as much as watching total cpu headroom and cheaping out on less obvious places.
I tend to think its more about sticking to the formula. I mean how much CPU would an extra LFO (or a few key LFO targets) really cost? Or, if you can realtime timestretch already, then what real difference would p-locking the stretch % make?
Old 15th January 2017
  #289
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El-Burrito's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp3 View Post
I tend to think its more about sticking to the formula. I mean how much CPU would an extra LFO (or a few key LFO targets) really cost? Or, if you can realtime timestretch already, then what real difference would p-locking the stretch % make?
Think that everything needs to be multiplied by 64. Best way to crash Ableton is to use too many M4L LFO's in 'wrong' destinations. OT multiplies only with 8.
Old 15th January 2017
  #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NuG3nda View Post
unfortunately (from screen shoots of the mpc software 2.0) it looks like its a simple 2x envelope + 1 x lfo engine ... I guess they want to keep it dead simple, and to their defense you can use round robin and irregular track lengths for modulation to simulate a mod matrix .. but I would have though that a cutoff per layer would have been a no brainier, an uber useful tool when layering!


I will say though that the new akai sound is more musical vs the old sound, at least when A/B ing imported samples from my 4k the mpc softwhere sounded round and smooth vs the bright crisp sound of the 4k, I still love the vinyl at 24/96 on the 4k really crisp and so alive if you know your way around the mod matrix

I still think and additional eq stage per pad in the new models would have been very useful in 2017 ... the tripple filter in the 4k was always in use just to eq/smooth things out on my programs ..

I was also disappointed in the translation between the 4k programs and the soft where ... the 4k is absolutely amazing for layering and for sampling..


My main questions now is, can clip mode trigger sequence/midi tracks or is it just for audio loops, also can their triggered resolution be set independently to try out different rhythmic variants

And will there be some sort of arrangement view on the hardwhere? .. I just have a hard time believe they´d stick to the tracker like song mode when so many MPC heads where tracking to DAWs just for the connivance of line like song arrangement


Will say though; it´s looking good, really good,.. I really hope to see Dan the man (including body guards) at Namm,.. thought that guy was very friendly and had a super nice vibe, seams like the kinda guy you´d end up doing some lines with and cheeking out a girl on girl mud wrestling match after the namm show.. I get this feeling of Andy Mac that he´d just get drunk, talk loud about his old breakbeat days, hit on your girlfriend and get caught pissing in the salad dressing ...
sorry bad story
Yeah, I actually downloaded the MPC software User's Guide manual to read about the features and compare. Yep, it's no 4000, but it has some amazing new features not found in the 4000, like the independent loop length tracks you mentioned for example. Also, it may not have per pad eq, but it does have fx per submix group bus in which eq can be applied. That's a nice feature for mixing within the software (or MPC X hardware ) and getting everything sounding superb right out of the box before hitting the mixer. Yeah, they've omitted some of the 4000's layering features and the mod matrix but they added some JJOS - LIKE features to the sequencer that seem to have a similar workflow to my MPC1000 and 2500. I actually like the sequencer workflow of the JJOS-eqipped 2500 better than the 4000, but I like the sampler engine and sound and hardware features of the 4000 better. It looks like the MPC X is Akai's take on the best of both the 2500 and the 4000 with a nice new touchscreen and Q link knobs to boot.

I also know what you mean about the more rounded sound you get out of the new Akai versus the hi-fi crispness of the 4000. I experience the same when comparing the 4000 to my E4XT Ultra, which is also a beautiful sounding sampler with a seriously powerful sampler engine. It also has a modulation matrix that is insane.

BTW, I'm glad you told me about the translation between 4K program articulation and the newer MPC software. I can understand it wouldn't translate perfectly because the sampler engine in the new software is different (and simpler) compared to the 4000. It sucks that after all of these years they haven't learned to make their newer software backwards compatible. I personally think the newer "flagship" software of a new flagship machine should contain EVERY feature of the previous flagship machine in addition to the newly implemented features not found on any previous machine. With that said, this might be a moot point because it may've not been possible since the MPC 4000 was designed and built back during the old Akai days and the original design team and software code for the 4000 may no longer be available. It's my guess new Akai did the best they could software wise. Not to mention, version 2.0 of their software isn't even out yet so who knows what new features and improvements they may have added. I think the MPC X will be a wonderful machine if it performs well.

Last edited by kvmoore; 15th January 2017 at 11:30 PM..
Old 15th January 2017
  #291
mp3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Burrito View Post
Think that everything needs to be multiplied by 64. Best way to crash Ableton is to use too many M4L LFO's in 'wrong' destinations. OT multiplies only with 8.
True but consider that the 5000 had 64 poly with vastly inferior horsepower

edit: and consider that JJOS doubled the # of simultaneously available filters on the 1000/2500 without reducing polyphony
Old 16th January 2017
  #292
Gear Maniac
 

any other Renoise users such as myself really feeling the dilemma of whether to stick with renoise or switch to these new MPCs. i got in to renoise off the back of not being satisfied with MPC 1000/2500, due to its closeness to MPC workflow. really does feel like an instrument with a qwerty keyboard more than a DAW. but now a nice new shiney mpc seems very tempting, but i feel like each will double up on what it can do.

they still seem so similar feature wise. one being $50 one being $2000.

i guess the MPC having audio tracks now is the big win and seems to be what a lot of renoise users are really thirsty for.
Old 16th January 2017
  #293
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NuG3nda's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clusterchord View Post
ah that's a pity if so. dont think its intent for simple as much as watching total cpu headroom and cheaping out on less obvious places.
The 4k had 64 voices (32 at 24/96) running a 2002 cpu core and had all thouse features, even if you have 100s of programs with filters, envelopes and extensive mod matrix patching , your never running 100 instances of the engine of that at the same times (as you know) , its always based on the internal poly, we are 2017, way more advance cpu, I think they could have pushed on a few more sample parameters


Considering the modmatrix and layering (and this addresses kvmoore post too), the new mpc have simultaneous pad triggers so one could design cutoff per layer based on simultaneous pad triggering (its actually more flexible although not as practical as having it on the layer stage (which is very real world practical, not just a jojo feature), but even with a basic sampler the system/sequencer is so opened that a creative mind will always get by ans simulate more extensive sample features with pad layering/cycling and seq automation


I´m actually having a hard time finding a flaw in the design .. the only fail I see is the physical design of the X, I think I´d have to say that 2x8 row of pads (like tempest, having the screen and buttons closer to you) would have been more practical for workflow (reaching over to the buttons in the upper left and the touch screen seams like you´ll at some point elbow someone in the face but I do understand that this would have been MPC blasphemy..

Few more question to the list,
Can loop-points be automated?
& what is the FX quality like? how features rich are they ? how many instances are possible? and can they also be automated?

And my apologize to Any Mac for the joke in my early post.. he´s alright
Old 16th January 2017
  #294
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lineofcontrol's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by clusterchord View Post
agreed. very complementary combination. OT lacks the bread n butter stuff like lots a polyphony for sampled instruments, bigger screen for complex arrangemnts etc but excels at mangling, p-locking and on the spot creation.
since i need cv/gate but find mpcx too big, i am considering mpclive + engine instead. two boxes aren't as elegant, but have to check first if i can somehow have mpc send commands to engine to change patterns and/or scenes, so i can have simultaneous shifts in arrangement. btw, is OT sequencer capable of receiving pattern/scene selection commands externally?
I was thinking about the combination of the MPC Live with the Kenton pro for my Cv Gate needs.

If they had just included 2 pairs of cv gate with the MPC Live it would be instabuy.

Last edited by lineofcontrol; 16th January 2017 at 08:42 PM..
Old 16th January 2017
  #295
Quote:
Originally Posted by base615 View Post
Indeed. There's absolutely no chance I'd be able to convince my wife "I've had it for ages"
Old 16th January 2017
  #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
I think a lot of Octatrack users will sell up to buy a new MPC, the screen and file management on the Octatrack is a joke..
Starting to see a lot of octatracks for sale now here in Sweden. If the mpcx is all it's cracked up to be, which I pray it will be, I'll be selling mine aswell.
Old 16th January 2017
  #297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wozniak View Post
Yep. Here's the video:

he's correct. everything they touch turns to absolute shiitt. as if we are supposed to submissively accept disposability and embrace it lovingly.
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Akai MPCX-tumblr_m1pitqtd591rqylyyo1_1280.jpg  
Old 16th January 2017
  #298
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Analog8 View Post
Starting to see a lot of octatracks for sale now here in Sweden. If the mpcx is all it's cracked up to be, which I pray it will be, I'll be selling mine aswell.
Be quick - not much room left on the bandwagon.

Its crazy people pre ordering something based on a few videos of some tech house project with a few clips launched. People are desperate for these to live up to the hype - great timing by Akai
Old 16th January 2017
  #299
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El-Burrito's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by akai_world View Post
Its crazy people pre ordering something based on a few videos of some tech house project with a few clips launched. People are desperate for these to live up to the hype - great timing by Akai
There are ppl like me who start this years gigging in spring. That's why it's important to have asap and not wait for long time user reviews. I think magazine reviews will start to roll out after NAMM.

For now it looks to deliver, but there is plenty of room for Akai to mess it up. I don't think that Akai's past doings with MPC series apply. These are new era maschines that have a lot more interest and users than previous non-standalone MPC's. 5000 etc is ancient history.

I think AKAI has perfect timing. Pioneer have done good marketing campaign for stand alone samplers. Many people started to re-think their workflow. And then AKAI comes with not one but to MPC's that seem to tick all the boxes for many people.
Old 16th January 2017
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akai_world View Post
Be quick - not much room left on the bandwagon.

Its crazy people pre ordering something based on a few videos of some tech house project with a few clips launched. People are desperate for these to live up to the hype - great timing by Akai
Well I'm not jumping on any bandwagon yet.
I need to see and read for myself that it is something that will fulfill my needs before preordering anything.
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