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anyone else underwhelmed with modern poly synths? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 19th December 2016
  #91
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Acid Mitch's Avatar
 

Doesn't it depend what is being compared ?
DSI Tetra sounds better than stuff like the Cheetah Ms6 and Oberheim Matrix 1000.

With the classics, nothing sounded as good as them even when they were in production. It's not as if all vintage synths sound as good as each other.
Old 19th December 2016
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gringo Starr View Post
I'd be curious what you'd think if you had an OB8 in your studio for a few days. Demos and shootouts are cool but having one in your hands might make you think differently... or not.
I would probably be amazed.
I know of the effect other senses have on what we think we hear.
And i know how it feels to touch the real instrument.
But that is only relevant for our own fun factor, not for our audience.

By a sheer coincidence today i toyed with one nice sound from a YT video, replaced the sound with a free VSTi and while it doesn't sound exactly like the original, it really sounds "more analog" when i see it "being played" on the old machine.

Maybe i'll post the edited video in a new thread.

[edit]Here it is:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/elec...l#post12322012
Old 19th December 2016
  #93
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Rufuss Sewell's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
To me Dave has two, radically different sounds. One, an organic, lively world of wonder and beauty
Sure, the Prophet 5 rev 2. Then by rev 3 he was getting closer to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
and another, a stiff and slightly acidic and plasticky thing.
Which he really perfected with the P600 and has stuck with to this day.

I don't hate it or anything. I kinda dig the P600 and P6 and am fascinated by the Polyevolver. I just prefer the OB8 and JP8... and even A6 much, much more.
Old 19th December 2016
  #94
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autoy's Avatar
The OB-6 is the only modern poly I prefer to the Polysix, Juno 106 or just about any Matrix, I know them all well. I have had the chance to play a friend's OB-8 briefly and the filter is quite different, I'm not sure why people keep insisting on this comparison. The OB-6 is SEM-like, which has a SVF signature sound regarding tone. The beauty of this machine is crossing that tone with the modulation possibilities of a Prophet, specially the amazing Poly-Mod section (X-Mod in the OB-6) which makes it a completely different machine than any vintage model. With careful programming it can cover any Polysix or Juno kind of sounds, thanks to the excellent effects section. Of course there is no mis-behaving opamps, bad key contacts or mis-calibered filters. You can't expect to get those on something coming out of a factory in 2016. You can't also have leaky power supplies or dried capacitors and it's not UNDERWHELMING but rather expected. Without those faulty power supplies you're also not gonna get that punchy and dirty VCAs. But you buy modern because it's trustworthy and consistent and even the "slop" or "detune" effects are predictable so you can dial with confidence. You buy vintage because you don't mind (or you're even fond of) a "kinda broken" sound, knowing some day the thing may fail fatally. Each has its charm and I understand both positions but you can't be underwhelmed because one doesn't sound like the other. It just sounds to me like an ignorant remark.
Old 19th December 2016
  #95
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DJRAZZ's Avatar
 

Modern poly's are just that, modern. Modern sound, stability, features, and price. Todays market requires it. Plus some things just cannot be re-made do to mass marketing and need. However limited editions are always nice. People would complain if synths were limited in features but demanding a high price.
Old 19th December 2016
  #96
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Muied Lumens's Avatar
You know, it just struck me that the whole idea behind being slutty is that anything goes. This site has got it wrong!

Old 19th December 2016
  #97
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell View Post
Sure, the Prophet 5 rev 2. Then by rev 3 he was getting closer to...



Which he really perfected with the P600 and has stuck with to this day.

I don't hate it or anything. I kinda dig the P600 and P6 and am fascinated by the Polyevolver. I just prefer the OB8 and JP8... and even A6 much, much more.
lol. We hear it very differently. To me a P600 is a completely organic world of beauty, no plastic in sight. Basically, everything labelled Sequential, except the P6 is one and everything since DSI is two.
Old 19th December 2016
  #98
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Muser's Avatar
I think there's always a point at which synths seem lacklustre. I don't tend to ascribe it to the synth so much as my current relation to it. there's usually a glass ceiling to synths which a user unconsciously makes decisions about the worth of, learning to break through. ime the breakthroughs are worth it because they are often due to generalities which apply to most synths. The synths people usually enjoy the most are the ones which give the user the types of sound experiences they are looking for, along with a pleasurable way of getting them.
Old 19th December 2016
  #99
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_ADSR_'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
I would probably be amazed.
I know of the effect other senses have on what we think we hear.
And i know how it feels to touch the real instrument.
But that is only relevant for our own fun factor, not for our audience.
These comments are very small minded and condescending. Possibly an error in translation?

Your VST does not sound like a vintage poly synth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
By a sheer coincidence today i toyed with one nice sound from a YT video, replaced the sound with a free VSTi and while it doesn't sound exactly like the original, it really sounds "more analog" when i see it "being played" on the old machine.
It really doesn't sound like one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
Maybe i'll post the edited video in a new thread.
Good!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
You need help.

Last edited by _ADSR_; 19th December 2016 at 04:06 PM.. Reason: you're/your (grammer)
Old 19th December 2016
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _ADSR_ View Post
These comments are very small minded and condescending. Possibly an error in translation?
What exactly you don't agree with ?
I think everyone here knows the "wow effect" playing a vintage synth has on the perception of sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ADSR_ View Post
Your VST does not sound like a vintage poly synth.
Not my synth, both Diva and Xhip.
I said so myself in my Xhip post.
I only said Diva plus Satin emulates OB-8 good enough that no one would be able to distinguish which is which in a full mix with effects - if you disagree, go and argue in the 2 Diva vs OB-8 test threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ADSR_ View Post
It really doesn't sound like one.
It is irrelevant how close or far it sounds from the original sound in the video, what is relevant is the difference between just hearing and hearing while also seeing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _ADSR_ View Post
You need help.
Again what exactly is wrong with anything i said there ?
Assuming you clicked on wikipedia links in that thread ?

We are going quite far offtopic here, so maybe continue in the other thread ?
Old 19th December 2016
  #101
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mutilatedlip's Avatar
Plus one on the Vermona and Dreadbox stuff.

Their sound us exactly what I feel vintage sounds like. Warm and drifty.
Old 19th December 2016
  #102
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manalishi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
I only said Diva plus Satin emulates OB-8 good enough that no one would be able to distinguish which is which in a full mix with effects
So what. There are thousands of rock tracks where you can't tell Les Paul from Strat in the final mix. But in music making the point is what tool was inspiring and got the job done?

I can tell you that despite knowing how much $$$ I'd save with them, whenever I sit down at a PC+VST, my muse disappears out the window. If the OP's creative juices get flowing with an OB-8 that's the way it is. If yours get going with a $99 plug-in then that's great, too.

But complaining that everyone should be like you is stupid.
Old 19th December 2016
  #103
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Chances are, modern poly synth weigh less than the older synths.
My CS-40m, even though only duophonic, weighs 50 odd pounds.
last time i moved it from one spot to another, in my garage, my back hurt for a day.
I will never gig with it.
Weighing less may not mean much to others, but I am getting too old to
haul 30-50 pound synths around.
Old 19th December 2016
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manalishi View Post
So what.
So someone who previously sold the OB-8 should first check Diva and Satin and only then if he failed to achieve sonic satisfaction with them, buy OB-8 again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manalishi View Post
But in music making the point is what tool was inspiring and got the job done?
True.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manalishi View Post
I can tell you that despite knowing how much $$$ I'd save with them, whenever I sit down at a PC+VST, my muse disappears out the window.
OK, only kidding here but if they were sounding identical, then maybe making a 1 to 1 identical hardware MIDI controller would be enough to keep the muse home ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by manalishi View Post
But complaining that everyone should be like you is stupid.
I wasn't complaining, just gave him a headsup in case he just cared about the sound, not the whole tactile/visual package.
Old 19th December 2016
  #105
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autoy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod Betamax View Post
Chances are, modern poly synth weigh less than the older synths.
My CS-40m, even though only duophonic, weighs 50 odd pounds.
last time i moved it from one spot to another, in my garage, my back hurt for a day.
I will never gig with it.
Weighing less may not mean much to others, but I am getting too old to
haul 30-50 pound synths around.
Good point. I bought the OB-6 for compactness/sound/fun factor per inch ratio. It blows any vintage synth in this department, specially huge Oberheims, and sound-wise you're as close as you can get. I welcome the 4-octave keybed in my case. The Deepmind 12 is also really small and lightweight. I'd get that over a Juno 60/106 any day if the final price was is right.
Old 19th December 2016
  #106
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abruzzi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerocrossing View Post
I'm with you. What ever "magic" an old poly may have (and I don't deny that there isn't some) gets overshined by the added expressive capabilities of modern polys like the DSIs/Sequentials and I think the Studio Electronics stuff is as good as anything that's ever been.
For me it comes down to one word: velocity. A poly without velocity is of zero interest to me. Its less of an issue on a mono since you can use creative phrasing and the volume knob, but a poly where every note in the chord sounds at the same volume is very musically uninteresting to me. So many of the gold standard vintage polys don't have velocity (P5, OB-8, JP-8, etc.), I'm sure there are exceptions--my Matrix 6 (and I assume Matrix 12) has it and obviously the CS80 but its surprisingly uncommon, let alone aftertouch of some kind.
Old 19th December 2016
  #107
Gear Maniac
I think my 002 has that "vintage" core tone, it sounds warm, alive and if you want, saturated. The filter drive is very useful and if you "animate" the detune parameter with the animator, the NCOs sound even more like real VCOs. I basically do this on nearly all of my analog style patches!
The Vermona Perfourmer Mk2 sounds way cleaner, less dirty in comparisation - it reminds me of the Roland sound although it also has transistor-ladder filters built in - like the 002.
Tomorrow, I'm going to have the opportunity to demo an 008 and I'm going to report my impressions here. I think most of those demos on Youtube of the 008 sound rather crappy.
One (or two) Dreadbox Abyss could be an option too.
Just don't buy anything until NAMM2017
Old 19th December 2016
  #108
I have not had a vintage poly to compare to, so take my opinion for what it's worth, but the Vermona PERfourMER mkII sounds glorious in my opinion. I now have two of them.
Old 19th December 2016
  #109
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drockfresh's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod Betamax View Post
Chances are, modern poly synth weigh less than the older synths.
My CS-40m, even though only duophonic, weighs 50 odd pounds.
last time i moved it from one spot to another, in my garage, my back hurt for a day.
I will never gig with it.
Weighing less may not mean much to others, but I am getting too old to
haul 30-50 pound synths around.
And then something doesn't work right and you have to open up the keyboard to troubleshoot or haul it to your bench or to the synth doctor which takes a ton of time and breaks your back even more. All while you could've been making music.

I sold a lot of vintage stuff because my back ain't what it used to be.
Old 19th December 2016
  #110
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manalishi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh View Post
I sold a lot of vintage stuff because my back ain't what it used to be.
One area where the Moog D reissue is annoyingly vintage-correct. And that's just mono.

Could DHL/UPS/etc even reliably ship an OB-8/Matrix12/etc reissue? Back in the day, I doubt that many were bought mail order.
Old 19th December 2016
  #111
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
So someone who previously sold the OB-8 should first check Diva and Satin and only then if he failed to achieve sonic satisfaction with them, buy OB-8 again.

For quite some people a few minutes with Diva is enough to know it won't cut their mustard and that is zero to do with anything visual, whatever you have been taught to believe.
Old 19th December 2016
  #112
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddlestickz View Post
of course they are, this is just peoples minds being silly as usual..
I gotta' say this thread turned up pretty great with heaps of good info, but this post comes off as rather arrogant. In my OP I clearly mentioned I'm more than open to utilizing plugins if they're able to get me the sound I want and I'll in fact be trying Diva out after folks recommended it. My conclusion that new poly synths are tonally lacking compared to old ones comes from a few years of extensive first hand experience. I'm 26 so have no biases such as nostalgia swaying my opinion. I listen with my ears and if something works it works, regardless of price point, year of manufacture, country of manufacture or whether it's digital or analog. We're all after different sounds. Nobodies mind is being silly...
Old 19th December 2016
  #113
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRAZZ View Post
Modern poly's are just that, modern. Modern sound, stability, features, and price. Todays market requires it. Plus some things just cannot be re-made do to mass marketing and need. However limited editions are always nice. People would complain if synths were limited in features but demanding a high price.

That makes sense except they've managed to make modern mono's (Minitaur, Mother32, MS20 Mini, KArp, etc) that sound excellent and right at home next to their older counterparts.

Why can they do that with mono's but not poly's? Unless it really is just a cost issue.
Old 19th December 2016
  #114
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drockfresh's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepykeith View Post

Why can they do that with mono's but not poly's? Unless it really is just a cost issue.
I hear ya. Are polysynths the hardest things in the world to build?

Cars can almost drive themselves, but we can't build a ballsy five voice?
Old 19th December 2016
  #115
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DJRAZZ's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by autoy View Post
Good point. I bought the OB-6 for compactness/sound/fun factor per inch ratio. It blows any vintage synth in this department, specially huge Oberheims, and sound-wise you're as close as you can get. I welcome the 4-octave keybed in my case. The Deepmind 12 is also really small and lightweight. I'd get that over a Juno 60/106 any day if the final price was is right.
This was kinda my point. We are in different place than we were 30-40 years ago.
Old 19th December 2016
  #116
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Soothing Sound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJRAZZ View Post
This was kinda my point. We are in different place than we were 30-40 years ago.
Because that's what matters! If we don't use new shiny gear constantly we are old farts.

''Years'' are just a concept, the reality is a constant ''now''. What different place is that? A consumer place, a trendy place? A place that if you go to the street with a non-touch phone, people laugh at you? Do you feel good in that place?
Old 19th December 2016
  #117
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This is the new variant of a ceaselessly obsessive thread that has been on the internet since there was the internet, even back in the days of Analogue Heaven.....

Is Analogue better than digital? Is old analogue better than new analogue? Can you ever go home again?

I've been conducting an interesting experiment with myself these past few months. Suffice to say, I have access to and mastery over a wide variety of synthesis capabilities and technologies, acquired over many years.

I've been focusing on one patch, on the funny little 8-bit synth tossed into the Roland A-01K (available for the price of popcorn, apparently, from one outlet at least). I've spent lots of time with it, playing it, tweaking it, using it as a baseline to explore everything possible with this seemingly very limited, glitchy little single-voice-with-no-fx synth.

The results are now that when I work with any other instrument, or tonality, or patch, or whatever..... I miss that specific A-01K patch sound. I can't get to it on other synths, no matter how hard I try! There is nothing like that patch on that synth, anywhere else in the universe! I am convinced!

TL;DR: familiarity can breed contempt, but it can also breed ever-subtler ties and associations, like a good, long marriage. You get used to an increasing number of characteristic details, which you gain more and more familiarity with, and control over, with time and acquaintance.

It's kind of like bird watching; what seems like made-up nonsense by experienced birders over time becomes familiar to you until you, too, yes, see the characteristic markings, even without the aid of a pair of binoculars, of the Little Brown Nutjob er I mean Nuthatch, whatever.

And so I would claim, to end this waste of the internet once and for all, that what we argue for as the inimitable and eternal excellence of ancient analogue is simply a question of habituation. We grow used to a certain tonality, it becomes our special friend, and then we grow nostalgic for it in recollection when we compare it with anything else that would dare to present itself as a substitute or equivalent.

There's nothing more to it than that, truly.
Old 19th December 2016
  #118
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
This is the new variant of a ceaselessly obsessive thread that has been on the internet since there was the internet, even back in the days of Analogue Heaven.....

Is Analogue better than digital? Is old analogue better than new analogue? Can you ever go home again?

I've been conducting an interesting experiment with myself these past few months. Suffice to say, I have access to and mastery over a wide variety of synthesis capabilities and technologies, acquired over many years.

I've been focusing on one patch, on the funny little 8-bit synth tossed into the Roland A-01K (available for the price of popcorn, apparently, from one outlet at least). I've spent lots of time with it, playing it, tweaking it, using it as a baseline to explore everything possible with this seemingly very limited, glitchy little single-voice-with-no-fx synth.

The results are now that when I work with any other instrument, or tonality, or patch, or whatever..... I miss that specific A-01K patch sound. I can't get to it on other synths, no matter how hard I try! There is nothing like that patch on that synth, anywhere else in the universe! I am convinced!

TL;DR: familiarity can breed contempt, but it can also breed ever-subtler ties and associations, like a good, long marriage. You get used to an increasing number of characteristic details, which you gain more and more familiarity with, and control over, with time and acquaintance.

It's kind of like bird watching; what seems like made-up nonsense by experienced birders over time becomes familiar to you until you, too, yes, see the characteristic markings, even without the aid of a pair of binoculars, of the Little Brown Nutjob er I mean Nuthatch, whatever.

And so I would claim, to end this waste of the internet once and for all, that what we argue for as the inimitable and eternal excellence of ancient analogue is simply a question of habituation. We grow used to a certain tonality, it becomes our special friend, and then we grow nostalgic for it in recollection when we compare it with anything else that would dare to present itself as a substitute or equivalent.

There's nothing more to it than that, truly.

Neat story. But it's a bit like saying that old Martin only sounds good to you because you got used to it, and really, you should be just as happy with that new off the rack ______ (fill in your chosen average tone and quality acoustic brand of choice).
Old 19th December 2016
  #119
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Bach666's Avatar
 

If you can't get "there" with an OB6, it seriously puts into question the skill/creativity of the user imo.
Old 19th December 2016
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
For quite some people a few minutes with Diva is enough to know it won't cut their mustard and that is zero to do with anything visual, whatever you have been taught to believe.
Yes, i know there are some people on this planet who can't recognize her sonic potential in just few minutes... I was amazed in 1st minute, that Moog filter... Jeebus...

Replicating sounds of different analog synths takes time, effort, skill and the right tools.
Diva happens to be the right tool for replicating OB-8 (among other vintage analogs).

Looks like some of the analog snobs want me to just say to the OP:
BUY BACK THE OB-8 ! NOTHING WILL REPLACE IT !

So here...
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