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anyone else underwhelmed with modern poly synths? Keyboard Synthesizers
Old 26th December 2016
  #361
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Soothing Sound's Avatar
Yeah Virus blends seamlessly with Moog, Juno-60 and whatnot, what a great synth. My best modern synth purchase for sure.
Old 26th December 2016
  #362
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fadein's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by robot gigante View Post
I don't think the 'modern' sound is less than vintage, but it is different and if one is smart, one plays to its strengths.
And what if one's not... I'm not smart and it's too difficult for me to think about achieving something one gets just by screwing hard some knobs on an old apparatus.
Old 26th December 2016
  #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
You have people in here using the Sunsyn and Code for comparisons in modern sound to vintage. What prices are they selling for? Are they really $4000 less, or half the price, than the vintage classics?
Some of the most famous vintages are 6000-10000$ - just now checked on Ebay.
And i was talking about prices of modern synths that don't really sound vintage without some additional magic, not the 2 you mentioned.
For these prices, you can check thomann.de or whatever other big online store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
What is this frequent downtime you refer to, does that really happen to people who own vintage synths
It does, i witnessed it myself during a show (it was a Model D and the musician got really furious lol).
Also depends on your and my definition of the word "frequent".

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
You are claiming that there is only 1% difference in sound, how did you reach that percentage?
Obviously it is not scientific.
If you wanted an exact number, you would have to do some tests and measurements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
Is that what people who prefer vintage over modern think the difference is, or is that what you, who do not seem to believe there is really any difference between vintage and new, think it is?
Read my posts again and you will see that i think that there is a difference that would require some work and skill and possibly additional equipment if one wanted to remove it.
But the good thing about it is that if you do it few times, then you will know what it takes to make the modern synth sound closer to vintage and setting it up like that will not take any extra time anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
And anyway, the OP isn't talking about cost, you are, they are talking about sound only...
I am talking about the sound too.
But this is GS.
Two options:
1. Get the sound you want, spend most/all of your spending money.
2. Get the sound you want after some experimentation and tweaking with a cheaper synth, have few thousands left for another synth.
I know which option i would rather choose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
You can turn on the OB8 and it sounds good, but you have to spend a whole lot of time programming the OB6, and adding EQ and tube overdrive, to try and make it sound as good? Seems that it simply doesn't sound as good in the first place, if you have to do that.
Again you missed the point.
OB6 will sound fokin great right after you turn it on (just not really vintage, it is too tame).
But making a patch that will sound exactly (undistinguishably by human ears) the same on any 2 synths, takes time and skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
Which vintage synths are at the end of their life span?
Google topics of aging electronic parts and parts that are not available anymore.
Old 26th December 2016
  #364
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I've posted this here or elsewhere before, but I was amused by the moment Roland gave professional users control over the secret of analogue sound in the XV-5080 by..... providing system-wide EQ for the unit.

The XV-5080 comes default with the EQ set to a slight bump in the lower-mid frequency range.

Why? Because -- as Bob Moog did in design of the Minimoog -- that default "sweetening" of the sound was a great marketing trick, much like the EQ pop music generally gets in recording and playback.

But once you're at the point we were when the XV-5080 was released, where your interest is in having as neutral a sound as possible for mixing purposes, 80Hz or 250Hz bump to be added by the recording engineer as desired..... it's better to have control over the EQ than to have it built into the synth for market competition reasons.

Why? Because that "warm, vintage sound" actually ends up painting everything with the same hue, and actually decreases the variety in sound you can get out of an instrument. It's like putting chocolate sauce on your eggplant parmesan as well as on your vanilla ice cream.

I much prefer the flexibility over trying to retain the "authenticity" of older synth sound.

And synthguy, you just explained why I've always liked Arp sounds on recordings from the '70's best; they probably required the least treatment and so always have a distinctive, enjoyable sound that is neither muddy nor overwhelming in a particular frequency range (unlike Moog or OB).
Old 26th December 2016
  #365
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Hahahaha, unbelievable, you guys are still doing laps. Merry Christmas! Oh, the staying power. Ho ho ho
Old 26th December 2016
  #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
I've posted this here or elsewhere before, but I was amused by the moment Roland gave professional users control over the secret of analogue sound in the XV-5080 by..... providing system-wide EQ for the unit.

The XV-5080 comes default with the EQ set to a slight bump in the lower-mid frequency range.

Why? Because -- as Bob Moog did in design of the Minimoog -- that default "sweetening" of the sound was a great marketing trick, much like the EQ pop music generally gets in recording and playback.
Another "secret" of analog vintage sound is that on some synths you can't open the filter 100%, like you can on digital synths.
When the knob on the user interface is turned all the way right, it translates to about 8Khz on a digital and you can't force it to open more even with maximum LFO/ADSR modulation amount.
Old 26th December 2016
  #367
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Bach666's Avatar
 

Vintage sounds different from modern = true

Vintage sounds different from vintage = true
(Prophet 5 rev 1, 2, & 3)
(OB8 vs Juno 106)

Vintage sounds better than modern = false
Old 26th December 2016
  #368
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Gringo Starr's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Hahahaha, unbelievable, you guys are still doing laps. Merry Christmas! Oh, the staying power. Ho ho ho
Was thinking the same thing. 13 pages and counting. Merry Christmas to you too!
Old 26th December 2016
  #369
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Bach666's Avatar
 

What better way to end 2016, and begin 2017
Old 26th December 2016
  #370
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synthguy's Avatar
I thought I'd muse a bit about the potential of "new vintage" synths in the upcoming years. I beg to differ about how new polyanalogs just don't have the same sonic stuff as a synth from the 80s, aside from the fact that making a 30-plus year old synth sound factory fresh is quite the challenge. But for the sake of argument I'll roll with it.

Bur first, we have to establish what exactly are the defining characteristics of a vintage synthesizer, and I'm hard pressed to recall anyone daring to try to nail anything down, because to me, this is as Jello as it gets. It ends up being a grab bag of people's favorite characteristics of a number of widely different synths. Well, the mixer and/or filter saturation is unique (Moog). The filters are unequaled (Moog, Oberheim, ARP, Roland, Sequential, Yamaha etc, all very different from each other). The sound is very clear/deep/beefy (its own grab bag and quite subjective). They sit in a mix better (I really need to hear some proof of this). Many love the way vintage synths age and have variations between voices (so if they went back in time, they wouldn't like a Jupiter-8 or OB-X?) and I could go on.

Physically and electronically, very few modern synths are made and/or use the same components as their forebearers. Through-hole hand soldered boards have given way to a lot of SMT and new IC chips. The Minimoog was made with some of the same discreet components as audiophile stereos and had an internal frequency response above 40khz, while the Voyager is completely modern. Most of the old chips are long gone. Some are making a comeback like the CEM3340 VCO thanks to Onchip/Curtis. But the circuit boards themselves are smaller, sometimes the size of a computer RAM card, which Dave Smith pioneered. Many people blame this for the aspect of new synths having a sound that is smaller, less clear or otherwise just wrong.

People will fudge the drift and other flaws of old synths by using the "analog feel" trick Roland came up with, programming in slight random fluctuations in OSC and filter pitch, amp level, and if they can, envelope times. And sometimes they get carried away with this, as I've heard some "overslopped" demos on YouTube that sound uncomfortably out of tune. Many people completely ignore how their favorite vintage synths sound on albums in which they're pretty much perfectly in tune and consistent between notes. The CS-80 which people tout as the ideal vintage synth had built in variations between notes, though this could have been a consequence of such a massive, overcomplicated synth. However, these variations were very slight.

Let's say that chipmakers like Curtis and the Chinese guys go all out and reproduce ICs comparable to what was available to synthmakers in the 80s next year. I have no doubt synth heads around the world will rejoice with visions of Synthexes, Memorymoogs and CS-80s dancing in their heads. It will still take a year or more for new synths to appear using them. And then what will the response be as we learn that most of the build will be using small cards still using a lot off SMT? How will they react to the sound? Will it still be the same bellyaching the Prophet~6 and OB-6 had to endure, with endless comparisons and doubt threads? What has the history been?

"We're sick of VAs and those stupid romplers. Someone make an honest to God polyanalog!"

The Prophet '08 appears, many rejoice. Then we find out that Curtis made different chips than the original P~5 used, fabrication uses a lot of SMT, some sulk.

"Someone make a polyanalog using discreet filters. That's what really matters!"

The Pro2 appears, enthusiasm builds, but many of us (like me) hold out for that true polyanalog. I even predict the Prophet~6 a few weeks before NAMM 2015. It appears, hitting the market like an asteroid. Then people doubt. Hmm... four octave keyboard... digital envelopes, LFO and effects... no through hole fab... I don't think it sounds like a P~5... meh.

Remember the endless angsting when the OB-6 manifested? All the handwringing over the sound, people begging for a comparison to Tom's SEM module? Does anyone doubt a repeat performance if a Roland polysynth appears next year? A Yamaha CS-80ish synth? And I don't want to make this an argument that new analogs sound exactly the same as vintage analogs. I will grant a few differences, even if I'm playing devil's advocate. But I insist that you "not even close" guys are not even right.

Some people here just won't be happy with anything but the original. For the rest of us, and musicians out in the wild, this is the greatest time to be alive ever. We have more choices than at any time in history, and great choices! Forget cheezy Siels and KORG Poly-800s (which are actually kind of cool when they work). From softies through VAs up to serious polyanalogs, we have powerful quality stuff to choose from. I wouldn't listen to most people in here. You'd think this is the age of the Synth Zombiepocalypse. Listen to demos. Watch YT videos. Go to stores and play everything you can. Buy stuff. Make music and come here to share it and don't worry what the cool kids say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by realtrance View Post
synthguy, you just explained why I've always liked Arp sounds on recordings from the '70's best; they probably required the least treatment and so always have a distinctive, enjoyable sound that is neither muddy nor overwhelming in a particular frequency range (unlike Moog or OB).
ARPs have a funny/cool frequency response tilted a bit to the upper mids and highs, making them sound innately brighter than the other synths. Alan R Pearlman resented how many musicians flocked to Moog and Oberheim synths, making his instruments seem like also rans, even as popular as they proved to be. But engineers found them to be a pleasure to work with, and fit in to a mix quite naturally. And keyboardists loved their flexibility, close to modular in how routings were handled with a few switch flips and sliders. They proved to be their own enduring legends. I'm very hopeful of how KORG continues this legacy. A KARP 2600 would be outstanding, full sized hopefully, but I'm hoping to see an ARP polysynth like a Chroma some year soon.
Old 26th December 2016
  #371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
Some of the most famous vintages are 6000-10000$ - just now checked on Ebay.
And i was talking about prices of modern synths that don't really sound vintage without some additional magic, not the 2 you mentioned.
...
Again you missed the point.
OB6 will sound fokin great right after you turn it on (just not really vintage, it is too tame).
Speculative buy-it-now asking prices on eBay are not necessarily what they actually sell for.

Maybe some bought their vintage polys, or have access to them, at much lower prices than that? ($3500 for a CS-80, for example)

Maybe "modern synths that don't really sound vintage without some additional magic" and "just not really vintage, it is too tame", is what the OP was talking about by being underwhelmed with modern poly synths?

Maybe some find that lack of magic, and tameness, underwhelming?

And again, like most who want to argue against someone's opinion that vintage sounds better than the modern options, you are raising points that are not related to the actual sound and tone, such as price and reliability.
Old 26th December 2016
  #372
PES
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PES's Avatar
21st century piano, man

I'm underwhelmed that none seem to include interfaces for proper polyphonic control of the sustain section (i.e. poly aftertouch).

Last edited by PES; 26th December 2016 at 09:32 PM..
Old 26th December 2016
  #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonInAustralia View Post
Maybe "modern synths that don't really sound vintage without some additional magic" and "just not really vintage, it is too tame", is what the OP was talking about by being underwhelmed with modern poly synths?

Maybe some find that lack of magic, and tameness, underwhelming?
Yes, there are people who think that it is some synth A vs synth B competition and that using free or cheap effects and random parameter automation through NRPN to bring synth B closer to synth A is cheating.
It is not.
All that matters is the sound, not how you achieved it.
Old 26th December 2016
  #374
Gear Addict
A lot of folks seem to think that I'm trying to find the OB-8 sound in a modern box- that's not at all the case. As I clearly stated I prefer the mellowed out tonality of almost all vintage poly synths I've tried/owned over their modern counterparts. As mentioned earlier, I prefer the cheap/hated Poly 61 over heaps of the newer synths I've tried. The old **** just has a much more pleasant top-end and general character which I prefer. I'm no scientist and can't definitively state that the sound I like is a result of drifting tolerances over the years or whatever, but I know the sound I like and that's that... I'll repeat, as nobody taking jabs at me seems to have caught this earlier: I'm 26 and have absolutely no bias towards vintage that's rooted in nostalgia, nor do I lean towards it for cool points. In fact, I'd prefer to stray away from vintage as much as possible since it's, in my experience, a ticking time bomb and that's what I hate most about it. If/when I find a suitable modern alternative, be it in the form of modular, soft synth or hardware synth (analog, digital or hybrid), I will gladly get it, but, thus far, I'm yet to find something that pleases my ears as much as the vintage specimens. I just got myself the new Model D reissue last week after wanting an original for many years and couldn't be happier- they nailed the sound! Biggest bonus is I get a sturdy, modern made MiniMoog that sounds just like the old ones at a lower price- more reliable!
Old 26th December 2016
  #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty.west View Post
I prefer the mellowed out tonality of almost all vintage poly synths I've tried/owned over their modern counterparts.

The old **** just has a much more pleasant top-end and general character which I prefer.
Any examples of these kinds of sounds ?
Preferably wihout reverb, just recorded straight into the interface.
Old 26th December 2016
  #376
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mutantt View Post
Any examples of these kinds of sounds ?
Preferably wihout reverb, just recorded straight into the interface.
No, I don't record (for now), just do this for my own self-amusement. If I come across some on YT later I'll definitely link them.
Old 26th December 2016
  #377
Gear Addict
I've seen the SunSyn and Omega 8 mentioned, those are two modern poly synths I'm definitely interested in trying out, especially the former. If I knew for certain the SunSyn would be the answer to my dilemma then I'd gladly shell out the $7k+ it costs to get one today. Of course the dodgy nature of them scares me off a bit, as does the fact that there's only one man on the face of the planet who can work on them... It has been a dream synth for a long time for sure. The funny thing is that one of my best mates had one some years ago, back when I wasn't into synths even in the slightest, and I never even bothered to turn the thing on- now I'd be lucky to be within 500km of one haha. Omega 8 seems cool too, but maybe a bit too acidy? Maybe it's just the particular demos I've seen. Can anyone link some demos of it being utilized in a more 'vintage' sonic fashion, similar to what I describe?

I'd love for you guys to keep the suggestions coming for some synths, I'm checking them all out. Actually, I just discovered the Vermona PERfourMER Mk II two days ago and have one coming, but would definitely like to add more- a very capable vintage sounding poly, of course. Get the idea that I want an OB-8 replacement out of yer heads! Just after a good old sounding synth, ideally with modern reliability.

I will state, with great conviction, that thus far I'm NOT a fan of the DSI sound, having owned/tried a few over extended periods of time. Granted, the OB-6 is my fav of the DSI stuff, but still not 100% what I'm after.

What would be required to get a poly going in the land of modular?

Last question: is the Obie Xpander/Matrix 12 considered a fairly stable synth? Same question re: JP-6 & 8. I know first hand the OB-X and Xa aren't very stable at all, but my OB-8 was pretty great and I'd take superior stability (relatively speaking) over minimal sonic gain any day.
Old 27th December 2016
  #378
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drockfresh's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty.west View Post
I've seen the SunSyn and Omega 8 mentioned, those are two modern poly synths I'm definitely interested in trying out, especially the former. If I knew for certain the SunSyn would be the answer to my dilemma then I'd gladly shell out the $7k+ it costs to get one today. Of course the dodgy nature of them scares me off a bit, as does the fact that there's only one man on the face of the planet who can work on them... It has been a dream synth for a long time for sure. The funny thing is that one of my best mates had one some years ago, back when I wasn't into synths even in the slightest, and I never even bothered to turn the thing on- now I'd be lucky to be within 500km of one haha. Omega 8 seems cool too, but maybe a bit too acidy? Maybe it's just the particular demos I've seen. Can anyone link some demos of it being utilized in a more 'vintage' sonic fashion, similar to what I describe?

I'd love for you guys to keep the suggestions coming for some synths, I'm checking them all out. Actually, I just discovered the Vermona PERfourMER Mk II two days ago and have one coming, but would definitely like to add more- a very capable vintage sounding poly, of course. Get the idea that I want an OB-8 replacement out of yer heads! Just after a good old sounding synth, ideally with modern reliability.

I will state, with great conviction, that thus far I'm NOT a fan of the DSI sound, having owned/tried a few over extended periods of time. Granted, the OB-6 is my fav of the DSI stuff, but still not 100% what I'm after.

What would be required to get a poly going in the land of modular?

Last question: is the Obie Xpander/Matrix 12 considered a fairly stable synth? Same question re: JP-6 & 8. I know first hand the OB-X and Xa aren't very MATRIXSYNTH: Studio Electronics Omega-8 demo at all, but my OB-8 was pretty great and I'd take superior stability (relatively speaking) over minimal sonic gain any day.
This Omega 8 demo was posted a few days ago:
MATRIXSYNTH: Studio Electronics Omega-8 demo



There are a few online but this is the latest
Old 27th December 2016
  #379
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eXode's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drockfresh View Post
This Omega 8 demo was posted a few days ago:
MATRIXSYNTH: Studio Electronics Omega-8 demo



There are a few online but this is the latest
I have to say that I only think the Omega/CODE sound OK at best (esp considering their asking price). Not like the Boomstars that have this larger than life quality to them.
Old 27th December 2016
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eXode View Post
I have to say that I only think the Omega/CODE sound OK at best (esp considering their asking price). Not like the Boomstars that have this larger than life quality to them.
Boomstars are monophonic and thus are designed with a ballsier vca so that they would stand up on their own. Stacking them up to make a poly would be a bit too much. It's like that in a lot of cases - that a poly sounds a bit more tamed compared to a mono, when you try to play monophonic sounds on it.
Old 27th December 2016
  #381
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drockfresh's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by eXode View Post
I have to say that I only think the Omega/CODE sound OK at best (esp considering their asking price). Not like the Boomstars that have this larger than life quality to them.
I have heard a lot of unmusical demos of the Omega/Code. Maybe something of the way it's laid out keeps it from doing bread&butter(whatever that means), or demoers just want to push the envelope with sound design. The Zarathus demos are nice tho.

I actually think this 2 voice has the best demo:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VjHoTgGXX50

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh-B5XTnzK8[




Old 27th December 2016
  #382
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These two demos have plenty of bread & butter sounds in them:



Old 27th December 2016
  #383
Old 27th December 2016
  #384
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Bach666's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zahush76 View Post
These two demos have plenty of bread & butter sounds in them:



This sounds good to me. I probably shouldn't even bother with people who think otherwise.
Old 27th December 2016
  #385
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lineofcontrol's Avatar
 

To the OP :

Have a listen on YouTube to Mr Firechild. His Code 8 tracks are fantastic.

And his Arp Quadra tune is just brilliant.
Old 27th December 2016
  #386
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Domitable's Avatar
 

After reading this thread, I feel like I bought the worst synth ever today.





I got a shockingly good deal on it though.
Old 27th December 2016
  #387
Gear Addict
Anyone care to comment further on the SunSyn? I've a sneaking suspicion that those who threw that idea out there haven't been on the same continent as one.
...but I'm very seriously interested in that synth and would happily pay the price if it will get me where I want to go! If/when the builder stops agreeing to work on them, are we completely out of luck? Are they really not serviceable by any other techs?
Old 27th December 2016
  #388
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robot gigante's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthguy View Post

"We're sick of VAs and those stupid romplers. Someone make an honest to God polyanalog!"

The Prophet '08 appears, many rejoice. Then we find out that Curtis made different chips than the original P~5 used, fabrication uses a lot of SMT, some sulk.

"Someone make a polyanalog using discreet filters. That's what really matters!"

The Pro2 appears, enthusiasm builds, but many of us (like me) hold out for that true polyanalog. I even predict the Prophet~6 a few weeks before NAMM 2015. It appears, hitting the market like an asteroid. Then people doubt. Hmm... four octave keyboard... digital envelopes, LFO and effects... no through hole fab... I don't think it sounds like a P~5... meh.

Remember the endless angsting when the OB-6 manifested? All the handwringing over the sound, people begging for a comparison to Tom's SEM module? Does anyone doubt a repeat performance if a Roland polysynth appears next year? A Yamaha CS-80ish synth? And I don't want to make this an argument that new analogs sound exactly the same as vintage analogs. I will grant a few differences, even if I'm playing devil's advocate. But I insist that you "not even close" guys are not even right.
Those are all DSI's, Synthguy. One company, one overall aesthetic, one vision. If I may, it seems like the subtext to this thread is that some people really don't gel with the sound of Dave Smith's recent efforts. I am one, but was never into Prophets except the VS anyway, I don't miss the Prophet 5 I had years back.

You have to acknowledge that there has been at least as much positive buzz about these synths as negative, however. Same goes for the DM-12, much more positivity than negativity. So I don't know. Sure there will always be trolls and haters, especially when Roland and Yamaha are concerned.

I don't think it is hate so much as frustration sometimes, 'cause we know from certain monosynths on the market (both reissues and new designs) that 'that sound' that some of us are after in a polysynth is completely possible. Another way of putting it is that maybe it isn't so much a vintage sound (which could mean a whole lot of things) that people want, if you catch my drift. Just alternatives from other companies with different design aesthetics than the major players I guess. That's why people are so jazzed on the DM-12 I think.

Smitty, all I can tell you about the Sunsyn is that when it first came out, the reception was mixed. Now it is rare and expensive. I dunno, myself I would just buy a solid vintage board and have a tech bulletproof it than chase after one. As for the stability of the Matrix 12, mine was completely stable but I can't speak for them in general, I am sure with some searching you can find what the common issues with them might be. Keep in mind that they may not do it for you in terms of raw tone either, but working the matrix makes up for it.
Old 27th December 2016
  #389
PES
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PES's Avatar
The eternal dillemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty.west View Post
Anyone care to comment further on the SunSyn?
Without knowing it (or what has been said about it in this thread), I wonder if its appeal to people willing to pay 6k for one would remain if Korg teamed up with its creator and relaunched it for 999.
Old 27th December 2016
  #390
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by PES View Post
Without knowing it (or what has been said about it in this thread), I wonder if its appeal to people willing to pay 6k for one would remain if Korg teamed up with its creator and relaunched it for 999.
Well, I can't speak for 'people', but... I couldn't care less about the collectability of synths- it's downright stupid to make decisions based off that-, so I'd of course be overcome with joy were that to ever materialize, so long as the sound was spot-on. I think the vast majority of people would be stoked if this ever happened, save for those who've shelled out the big money for an original. Were you maybe trying to suggest I'm only considering it because it's rare/desirable/mystique-laden? lol.
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