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Korg Odyssey module can't LFO and un-retrigger at same time
Old 17th December 2016
  #1
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Korg Odyssey module can't LFO and un-retrigger at same time

Just got a Korg Odyssey module today. I like to use the external connection between Gate Out and Trig In so that the ADSR plays legato and doesn't retrigger. The trouble is, this also seems to disconnect the LFO, so PWM and S/H stop working! Am I doing something wrong or must I have a fully re-triggering ADSR if I want PWM or LFO S/H? Bizarre!
Old 17th December 2016
  #2
TJT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw_hunt View Post
Just got a Korg Odyssey module today. I like to use the external connection between Gate Out and Trig In so that the ADSR plays legato and doesn't retrigger. The trouble is, this also seems to disconnect the LFO, so PWM and S/H stop working! Am I doing something wrong or must I have a fully re-triggering ADSR if I want PWM or LFO S/H? Bizarre!
Are you using midi in to trigger the synth? Have you tried via cv?
Old 17th December 2016
  #3
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Good question....MIDI. So I tried unplugging MIDI and connecting CV and Gate out from my Voyager to CV and Gate in on the Odyssey. Still no PWM but now unplugging the (now uneccesary) Odyssey Gate Out toTrig In cable, and PWM is back ok. So now I've got no re-trigger (thanks Moog) and PWM back again. Nice idea. But I really want this to work from a MIDI keyboard like my Kronos or Blofeld Keyboard. I need to get a MIDI-> CV converter as well now?!!!
Old 17th December 2016
  #4
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A bit more info...
(back to MIDI input and the lead connecting Gate Out and Trig In)
LFO -> VCO vibrato also doesn't work (but using the pressure pads does)
With a long enough Release, the PWM kicks in as soon as the Gate is released. So the key Gate is killing LFO mod. WHAT????????

Can someone with a Korg Odyssey KEYBOARD please confirm what happens when using the internal keyboard rather than MIDI. This is looking like a Module fault.
Thanks
Old 17th December 2016
  #5
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goldphinga's Avatar
 

I used gate out to trigger in for legato mode with no issues on the keyboard version.
Old 17th December 2016
  #6
TJT
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It sounds like maybe the stuff is disabled via midi once you start going into trigger in. Clearly it's a bug, but it *would* make sense that the keyboard version of the Odyssey still works with the trig trick if it's acting independently of all of that.

ETA: Now that I think about it, I'll bet the trig in comes *after* and overrides the LFO from acting as a trigger on the board itself. I wonder if you try switching to "keyboard trig" rather than "LFO trigger" and can use the s/h functions that way (changes with each key press via midi) while your trig in is being used. At least that would hone in on the problem.

If you can't get past this bug, you could buy a beatstep pro, because it's great. I use it with my original ARP. If you get a little Kenton pro solo 2, you get an extra LFO for pitch and a bunch of nice extra features. And timing will probably be tighter too.
Old 17th December 2016
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw_hunt View Post
Just got a Korg Odyssey module today. I like to use the external connection between Gate Out and Trig In so that the ADSR plays legato and doesn't retrigger. The trouble is, this also seems to disconnect the LFO, so PWM and S/H stop working! Am I doing something wrong or must I have a fully re-triggering ADSR if I want PWM or LFO S/H? Bizarre!
OP, I don't have an answer but could you please confirm whether the flaws of the keyboard are also on the desktop? For example I've read in a few forums that a different retrigger issue exists (the LFO doesn't retrigger if a key is pressed in the second half of its cycle) and that the pads don't send CV modulation.
Old 18th December 2016
  #8
Kja
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I don't have any answers but I do know that on the keyboard version everything besides the midi converter and the keyboard is completely analog. So I don't see how there can be a bug in analog processors, none of it is programmed and there is no processor. So I think it is kinda how it is.. Its not like korg can issue a update..
Old 18th December 2016
  #9
TJT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kja View Post
I don't have any answers but I do know that on the keyboard version everything besides the midi converter and the keyboard is completely analog. So I don't see how there can be a bug in analog processors, none of it is programmed and there is no processor. So I think it is kinda how it is.. Its not like korg can issue a update..
I meant bug in the bad circuit design sense. Like where the trig in comes in on the circuit somehow bypasses the lfo trigger.
Old 18th December 2016
  #10
Kja
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Yes.. Maybe because there is no keyboard for the lfo to be triggered? It's strange, also can you pick your midi channel? From the pictures it looks like there is a switch for it above the midi port on the tabletop? My keyboard doesn't have this switch? I wonder what midi channel the keyboard actually uses?
Old 18th December 2016
  #11
Kja
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Nevermind, I just found out you CAN set midi channel so that's cool.
Old 18th December 2016
  #12
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Some more testing - and trying to answer some of your questions:

1. no midi in, just filter and CVA open, so making constant sound. Square wave LFO (from Voyager) into Ody Trig In causes PWM to switch on and off in time with the square wave. Next, using the Ody's LFO (fast) to trigger its ADSR...this is also gated by the Voyager's (slow) LFO, so we have alternating silence and (fast) ADSR repeats. This just confirms that a signal at Trig In disconnects the Ody's LFO modulations and triggers. Is this the same in the Ody keyboard version?

2. Using (Kronos) midi keyboard to trigger the S/H works normally (new S/H level each key press) while LFO to Trig in is low, and keeps same S/H level when LFO to Trig In is high. So a high to Trig In is disabling midi key trigs to S/H as well as the Ody's LFO.

3. No Trig in, just midi (Kronos) in. Ody set to ADSR KBD Gate or LFO Repeat and with a slow 2 second LFO, keyboard triggers ADSR correctly, whatever part of its LFO cycle you kit a key. Is this the test you meant HarryDemarva?

4. CV Out sends # and b but not ~ from the PPC controllers.

5. Yes there's a set of tiny DIP switches on the rear to set the midi channel.

6. Beatstep Pro is a great idea - I hadn't thought of that one. According to the manual it can do midi-CV conversion and includes pitch bend in the CV. Wonder if it'll fit on my Blofeld Keyboard???
Old 18th December 2016
  #13
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Jamie munro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delmarva View Post
OP, I don't have an answer but could you please confirm whether the flaws of the keyboard are also on the desktop? For example I've read in a few forums that a different retrigger issue exists (the LFO doesn't retrigger if a key is pressed in the second half of its cycle) and that the pads don't send CV modulation.
pads do send voltage in plus and negative, just not the modulation
Old 18th December 2016
  #14
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Or better still, I get a second Ody Module! Use the first for midi-cv conversion and for two VCOs.... and send VCOs, Gate and CV to second Ody which does 2 more VCOs and ADSR etc with proper legato as it's triggered by the first one's Gate out. Perfect!
Old 18th December 2016
  #15
TJT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw_hunt View Post
Or better still, I get a second Ody Module! Use the first for midi-cv conversion and for two VCOs.... and send VCOs, Gate and CV to second Ody which does 2 more VCOs and ADSR etc with proper legato as it's triggered by the first one's Gate out. Perfect!
The Ody has CV out, but I don't know that it will work as a midi-cv. It might not pass along midi information through its CV out, to a second synth. Unless it says so in the manual.
Old 18th December 2016
  #16
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I tested my Ody module for CV out (Kronos -> Ody -> Voyager) and it includes bend from midi in, and adds portamento and octave switch from the Ody itself, so pretty useful. The only thing missing is mod wheel/vibrato, which I think only really the Kenton can do.
Old 19th December 2016
  #17
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Quote:
What's the content of that link got to do with what I'm reporting, apart from they both contain some of the same terms like 'LFO' and Trigger'? This is something completely different.
Old 19th December 2016
  #18
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I've thought this through and the only solution I can see is a second Ody module. A Kenton wouldn't give me easily controllable portamento (I don't want to select parameters and click switches; just grab a knob!) And a Beatstep Pro wouldn't give me portamento at all.
Having two Odyssey modules gives me legato (I will only use the ADSR in the second module and that is gated by the first module, not by midi), portamento controlled my module 1's slider, octave shift controlled by module 1's switch, and all 4 VCOs can have PWM. It's only money... ;-)
Old 19th December 2016
  #19
Kja
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So on the module the lfo won't trigger if the adsr doesnt, and on all of them, if the lfo doesn't trigger the adsr wont, assuming the envelope is seeing the lfo as a digital on/off message. This seems because of the implementation of midi, I'm just wondering.. What if they actually tried to do what all the whiners were whining about and made them with digital scanning sliders with presets.. Think of all the problems people would find! And so many said they should get presets for this much money! This is always the problem trying to adapt new technology to function like the technology from fourty years ago. They are lucky they could reproduce it like this.. I hate whiners..
Old 19th December 2016
  #20
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I think we need a detailed list with all the bugs and forward it to Korg's geniuses.
Old 19th December 2016
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw_hunt View Post
I've thought this through and the only solution I can see is a second Ody module. A Kenton wouldn't give me easily controllable portamento (I don't want to select parameters and click switches; just grab a knob!) And a Beatstep Pro wouldn't give me portamento at all.
Having two Odyssey modules gives me legato (I will only use the ADSR in the second module and that is gated by the first module, not by midi), portamento controlled my module 1's slider, octave shift controlled by module 1's switch, and all 4 VCOs can have PWM. It's only money... ;-)
Apart from the knob vs switch preference, do you think that a decent midi to cv converter would solve this?
Old 19th December 2016
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by projectwoofer View Post
Apart from the knob vs switch preference, do you think that a decent midi to cv converter would solve this?
The Kenton seems to be the best one around. Yes it can do portamento if you don't mind hitting the up/down button etc to dial in the value you want. It can also do pitch bend, so all it's missing is the octave switch. I want a couple more VCOs anyway so the second Odyssey module solves everything for me as I also get a proper portamento slider and octave switch.

Loving the sound of this thing I had a Mk 2 Axxe with an extra 4 VCOs back in the 70s-80s until it got beyond repair, and this new one sounds as near as I can tell the same. I still have the original one sampled so can play it in my sampler so don't have to rely on memory.
Old 19th December 2016
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by projectwoofer View Post
I think we need a detailed list with all the bugs and forward it to Korg's geniuses.
Not sure it would do much good though. There are several known bugs with the keyboard version that are very well known and are mentioned in the press and reviews, and Korg have done nothing about them for the module. All they seem to have fixed is getting it to respond to midi pitch bend. Oh and removing the toy keyboard. Nice start, Korg, but job only half done. Listed to feedback and get it right! And this time I AM whinging. I'm technical director of an electronics/software company and have developed products that have turned over more than £1.3Billion and there's no way I'd have released something as unfinished as this - at least on the second attempt.

It's so crap I bought two.
Old 19th December 2016
  #24
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Maybe a good idea instead of the Kenton would be a nice mono with decent midi to cv capabilities to accompany the Ody. I was thinking about that dreadbox NYX from that other thread. The previously relased Erebus seems to be pretty capable on this area...
Old 19th December 2016
  #25
Kja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw_hunt View Post
Not sure it would do much good though. There are several known bugs with the keyboard version that are very well known and are mentioned in the press and reviews, and Korg have done nothing about them for the module. All they seem to have fixed is getting it to respond to midi pitch bend. Oh and removing the toy keyboard. Nice start, Korg, but job only half done. Listed to feedback and get it right! And this time I AM whinging. I'm technical director of an electronics/software company and have developed products that have turned over more than £1.3Billion and there's no way I'd have released something as unfinished as this - at least on the second attempt.

It's so crap I bought two.
Criticize korg if you want, but I find it sad that the ONLY people passionate enough and with the abilities to create as complex of a mono synth that has real vintage American tone for a decent price, has been the japanese! Even moog can't do this for this price.. There I said it.. Flame suit on!

Maybe it's that instead of bugs and being lazy, these are symptoms of a digital interface and cannot be rectified at this price or they would.. That makes allot more sense to me, but I'm generally an understanding person of limitations and not exspecting the moon and stars for $800. I mean it sounds incredible..
Old 19th December 2016
  #26
Kja
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I'm not an electronic engineer, so it's hard for me to pretend to be, but I do know that digital means it sends a 1 or 0 at the start to trigger something.. And in order to trigger something halfway in, something digital has to tell it to.. Which I don't think exists in this besides things manually triggered.. So I kind of get how these bugs can happen.
Old 19th December 2016
  #27
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I am an electronics engineer; a proper Chartered Engineer one I'll try to shed some light on it...
You're right that digital signals are either on or off; 1 or 0.... and analogue signals can be anything inbetween. But an 'analogue' synth like the Korg module (or a 40 year old original one) actually has plenty of digital stuff going on in there. All of the gates and triggers are digital signals; either on or off.

What most people think of as a digital synth is one where the 'sounds' are generated by lots of 1s and 0s (and much bigger numbers) being moved around by some kind of computer. A lot like the digital gate and trigger signals in an old Odyssey, but a LOT more of them and a LOT faster. The Korg Odyssey has a small computer which handles MIDI input and turns it into a control voltage and a few 'digital' triggers. That bit works fine. The rest of the module is 'analogue' but contains a few 'digital' signals in there

The issue I'm describing here is nothing to with whether the synth or its signals are analogue or digital, it's about the design choices they made with regards to routing those signals: where do the signals go and in what order... In legato 'mode' we send the gate signal back in to the Trigger Input and this over-rides the internal trigger (good for legato-ness) and also halts the LFO (bad for LFO-ness). They could have chosen to route the signal differently so as to allow the LFO to keep free-running until the next Gate signal (not Trigger signal) re-starts its cycle.

But - and I may be about to cut Korg a lot of slack here - maybe this is how the original Odyssey worked and the debate here is about my ideal design vs. keeping it faithful to the original. If the original Odyssye behaved in this way then fair enough - I'm all for authenticity and will accept warts and all as long as they are copies of the original warts and not new ones. Can someone with an original Odyssey connect the Gate out to Trig in and see if the LFOs stop? If it behaves the same way, I'll take back what I said about them. But I still want to find a way around this (possibly original) design limitation. My best solution is to buy a second module, which I'm not too miffed about as it gives me two more glorious VCOs
Old 19th December 2016
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcabbage View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sw_hunt View Post
What's the content of that link got to do with what I'm reporting, apart from they both contain some of the same terms like 'LFO' and Trigger'? This is something completely different.
Did you read that thread?
Twice. Which part is relevant? Are you referring to this:
"I'm pretty sure Korg have messed up the LFO Repeat switch wiring, so that it disengages the Keyboard Trigger when the switch is down - which it shouldn't do."
So what? I don't care if this switch is up or down. Would you like to explain to me how you are helping here? Which part of this link explains anything that I am asking?
Old 19th December 2016
  #29
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Jamie munro's Avatar


maybe i am missing your point but my lfo retriggers and triggers the filter on my kbd version whether trig in is connected to gate out or not and whether or not the adsr section is being triggered by kbd or retriggering lfo, NOR does it affect the s&h etc
Old 19th December 2016
  #30
Kja
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I'm just gonna shut up now as it's apparent I don't know anything about this stuff..
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