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Wave Alchemy 'REVOLUTION' Drum Machines & Samplers
Old 19th December 2016
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post

the swing and delay things are so obvious though, i don't understand how they'd get through.
Please see my previous reply to this. The swing is working perfectly well - it appears that you've simply been using shuffle mode instead of swing mode.

In regards to the delay. This seems a simple bug which can be fixed in time for release day
Old 19th December 2016
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nleif View Post
I echo all the sentiments above, especially the shuffle being pretty wonky. I'd like to add that the compressor and EQ functionality is greatly diminished without the labeling or metering you'd come to expect. Also the digital effects seem to go from "I can't hear this at all" to "holy s*** that's way too much" without any serviceable middle ground.

Personally I would have preferred a GUI that had each module's traditional settings (the ones that change the original sample parameters) running down the strip and another strip below that with the additional digital envelopes. This way you could tweak the decay on your toms and kick drum without having to keep clicking around each one to do minor adjustments. I would gladly trade the EFX section for this.

All in all I think its gonna be cool, but I think a more streamlined product just focusing on what makes it unique (round robin sample manipulation) without all the extra cheesy digital EFX would've made it a better product overall. (For everyone who says "you don't haaave to use the efx if you don't want to," well it still takes up real estate on an already cramped GUI so yeah it is effecting the performance by cutting into space that could've been used to access each sample module as a whole instead of having to click around and select each one before tweaking the decay.

****

The biggest missed opportunity for me is that your locked into the drumkit layout they've provided. I would much prefer giving the user the ability to build a kit by selecting which type of module you wanted and dropping it in. (for example, I'd really like just one BD type module but 4 percussion modules so I can have two claps to layer alongside having access to claves and rimshots.) Right now your forced to look at a screen full of additional modules that you may never use (Two BD's, Two Snares, Three hihhats...) at the expense of not having access to other modules that you'd much rather be using... This is an example of myself wishing they had focused more on what makes this product unique and useful as opposed to adding all the extra mediocre processing.
I will respond to your points below:

1. The simple answer here is that we believe in using our ears is more important than using meters. We of course have a global meter at the output stage of Revolution. The digital effects in Revolution are supposed to be simple. Very easy to use and simple to tweak. We didn't feel the need ti add intensive metering or labelling for these effects, as they are very simple to tweak by ear. It's completely fine if you disagree of course - everyone is different and has their own expectations

2. My only response to this point would be that it takes just one click, or even just one MIDI key or drum pad press to switch between any drum module. Also, in regards to digital envelopes, filter and other settings. These can actually all be changed at the same time, across all sounds by simply Alt / Option clicking any of the knobs and dragging it. This will now change the selected control fall ALL drum machines at the same time. The same goes for reverb sends and pretty much all other controls in Revolution. We have lots of these time saving key commands

3. In regards to your final point. Unfortunately this is a limit of Kontakt itself. We have pushed Kontakt to it's absolute limit with Revolution. Having every single drum module available on all channels is not possible unfortunately - it exceeds the sample count allowed in Kontakt! Hopefully NI will allow this in a future update of Kontakt.

For this sole reason we have include a Revolution Perc instrument. Which is exactly the same as the Drums version, except all 14 channels are dedicated to percussion sounds. In this version you CAN load any percussion sound from any machine into any of the 14 slots. I tend to load both a Drums and Perc version of Revolution if I am using extensive percussion sounds.
Old 19th December 2016
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
wish they'd include a generic "module" (in which you could load any of the available drum sounds) with everything else stripped out, so that you could sequence them inside Maschine or Ableton (or whatever else you might use).
I understand your point, but after research it appears that most people like the idea of having a complete drum machine design.

We may look at introducing some individual modules in the future, but for now it is simple enough to simply default the effects (so they are bypassed) - we can even create preset for this and ship with the release version. And then simply load exactly what you like into Revolution
Old 19th December 2016
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
- there's no indication where most any of the knobs are set (a lot of VSTs display the current value somewhere when you make adjustments), and no sort of "double-click to return to default". sometimes it's a guessing game to set knobs back to 50% or defaults. hated this about the older ones, and no improvement here.
In regards to this observation. We didn't feel the need to add any digitally displayable values to the knobs. After all the original drum machines do not have these for the most part, and the instrument is all about tweaking the sound and listening with ears.

This is incorrect - simply ctrl + click any control in Revolution to return it to it's default setting. Alternatively you can also option / alt + ctrl click controls to return all of the controls in that group of parameters to default,
Old 19th December 2016
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wave alchemy View Post
I'd like to confirm again that ALL of the drum original parameters of all of the original drum machines are available in Revolution. Taking the 808 Bass Drum as an example - we recorded every single decay possibility available from 2 separate TR-808 drum machines (which are switchable). The same goes for every other parameter for all drum machines.

The decay control being referred to in the above post is an additional digital decay, which alters the sound after the 'real / analogue' decay found on the original machines. If you want to keep the sound and parameters exactly the same as the original machines, you can simply put the additional digital decay at it's default position, which bypasses it
Ah thanks for the clarity , I had hoped this was wrong as the decay of the hits is half the magic in drum machines
Old 19th December 2016
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wave alchemy View Post
This is correct. Revolution is a serial protected instrument, and we decided that we are not prepared to give away all of the samples unprotected - which would result in the samples easily being shared and distributed on warez websites.

We didn't see the need for a Maschine specific pack, as the entire instrument and sample content can be controlled directly and very easily from Maschine / Komplete Kontrol - without having to even touch Revolution itself.

I will provide more info on the NKS compatibility shortly - we are still finalizing some of the last details with Native Instruments
With all the piracy **** going on, i do of course see your point and valid concern. Its sad that honest buyers (like some of us still are) have to suffer from it and cant use these exceptional samples in our hardware samplers. Especially with new things like Toraiz or MPC live coming out. However it certainly is not your fault.

I am looking forward to see how its done in Maschine. So far i didnt use Komplete Kontrol and feel uncertain about it. But i am willing to lern. We will see.

Btw. 120 quid during introduction is a nice price for what seems to cover alot of ground.
Old 19th December 2016
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coorec View Post
With all the piracy **** going on, i do of course see your point and valid concern. Its sad that honest buyers (like some of us still are) have to suffer from it and cant use these exceptional samples in our hardware samplers. Especially with new things like Toraiz or MPC live coming out. However it certainly is not your fault.

I am looking forward to see how its done in Maschine. So far i didnt use Komplete Kontrol and feel uncertain about it. But i am willing to lern. We will see.

Btw. 120 quid during introduction is a nice price for what seems to cover alot of ground.
Yes, it's a real shame that piracy ends up affecting the end user to a certain degree is some cases.

The samples in Revolution have been a huge labour of love. Recording tens of thousands of high quality samples over many months of production time - and then also re-recording the original machines directly to analogue tape and classic hardware sampler such as the SP-1200. We'd certainly worry about giving all of this hard work in an uuencoded format which would no doubt end up on the pirate sites for free within hours...

I'll be back in touch soon RE exactly how this works in Maschine and Komplete Kontrol
Old 19th December 2016
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coorec View Post
Its sad that honest buyers (like some of us still are) have to suffer from it and cant use these exceptional samples in our hardware samplers.
This kind of sample instrument isn't possible in any hardware sampler I know of. what hardware is there that will allow for keygroups of 20,000 samples assignable to multiple encoders?
Old 19th December 2016
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden beers View Post
This kind of sample instrument isn't possible in any hardware sampler I know of. what hardware is there that will allow for keygroups of 20,000 samples assignable to multiple encoders?
I know. Thats not what i asked tho.
Old 19th December 2016
  #40
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Can you mix and match drum sounds from different machines? E.g., say, have the 808 kick with the 909 snare?
Old 19th December 2016
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
Can you mix and match drum sounds from different machines? E.g., say, have the 808 kick with the 909 snare?
Yes, of course. You can load a different ‘Drum Machine’ of your choice into any of the 14 Drum Voice Modules to build your own drum machine. As an example - you could have an 909 kick, CR-78 kick, 808 snare, Linndrum snare, 606 hats, OB-DX cymbals, 909 toms, Drumtraks claps etc... The choice is yours
Old 19th December 2016
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wave alchemy View Post

I understand your point, but after research it appears that most people like the idea of having a complete drum machine design.

We may look at introducing some individual modules in the future, but for now it is simple enough to simply default the effects (so they are bypassed) - we can even create preset for this and ship with the release version. And then simply load exactly what you like into Revolution
Well, "most people"...
I never trusted the timing of Kontakt scripted sequencers for my tracks. I also agree with the posters above that most decently equipped studios will not need the (IMHO second rate) Kontakt effects.
I really wish WA would update Transistor Revolution. As such this is likely the first WA product I won't buy in quite a while.
Old 19th December 2016
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wald View Post
Well, "most people"...
I never trusted the timing of Kontakt scripted sequencers for my tracks. I also agree with the posters above that most decently equipped studios will not need the (IMHO second rate) Kontakt effects.
I really wish WA would update Transistor Revolution. As such this is likely the first WA product I won't buy in quite a while.
Thanks for the feedback and thoughts.

You of course don't need to the use the sequencer within Revolution if it's not your thing. Revolution features MIDI drag and drop too, so you can create quick patterns and sketch ideas in its sequencer, and then drag these ideas to your DAW sequencer and edit them further if required.

This IS kind of an update to Transistor Revolution (if you want to look at it like that). It includes the 909 / 808, with much improved samples, accuracy and improved controls - and all of the analogue drum machines have been recorded again to analogue tape at multiple saturation levels. We also recorded a totally different TR-808 drum machine, and offer both 'flavours' within the instrument. As a bonus, you also get 12 drum machines that are not included in Transistor Revolution, plus tons of other features.

All of the above and the fact that the usability and workflow is much cleaner, I like to think that this a pretty good update
Old 19th December 2016
  #44
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Any plans on adding any nifty Ableton Live racks or mappings for this?
Old 19th December 2016
  #45
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The NKS features are cool. For those that do not own the NI stuff, can we achieve similar results using standard MIDI mapping?

I.e., can we map Ableton dials to controls on Revolution, which control the selected drum sound?

Can we choose the selected drum sound via MIDI notes?

Can we record into and control the Revolution sequencer using standard MIDI?
Old 19th December 2016
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wave alchemy View Post
Thanks for the feedback and thoughts.

You of course don't need to the use the sequencer within Revolution if it's not your thing. Revolution features MIDI drag and drop too, so you can create quick patterns and sketch ideas in its sequencer, and then drag these ideas to your DAW sequencer and edit them further if required.
So what you are saying is that I should replace a well established workflow that uses hardware controllers to enter step note data with a Kontakt interface -- clicking around with a mouse??

Quote:
Originally Posted by wave alchemy View Post
This IS kind of an update to Transistor Revolution (if you want to look at it like that). It includes the 909 / 808, with much improved samples, accuracy and improved controls - and all of the analogue drum machines have been recorded again to analogue tape at multiple saturation levels. We also recorded a totally different TR-808 drum machine, and offer both 'flavours' within the instrument. As a bonus, you also get 12 drum machines that are not included in Transistor Revolution, plus tons of other features.
This is *exactly* my complaint. Instead of improving TR, I have to use a new Kontakt instrument with what seems to be (at least for now) a clunky interface that breaks my workflow and adds lots of Kontakt-based features I do not need.
Old 19th December 2016
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
... can we map Ableton dials to controls on Revolution, which control the selected drum sound?

Can we choose the selected drum sound via MIDI notes?

Can we record into and control the Revolution sequencer using standard MIDI?
- yes, though going by the demo you'll need to map all your parameters from the drum modules first using the Kontakt "Host Automation" feature. after that you can control these through Ableton.

- yes. drum sounds are triggered from MIDI notes C1 through E2, though these can not be re-mapped like they could with the earlier products.

- yes, MIDI notes C-1 through D#0 correspond to steps 1-16 or 17-32 of the sequencer. these control your "focused" drum voice.
Old 19th December 2016
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 View Post
The NKS features are cool. For those that do not own the NI stuff, can we achieve similar results using standard MIDI mapping?

I.e., can we map Ableton dials to controls on Revolution, which control the selected drum sound?

Can we choose the selected drum sound via MIDI notes?

Can we record into and control the Revolution sequencer using standard MIDI?
Yes, any of the controls can be easily mapped to any MIDI controller.

Yes, you can choose the selected drum sounds via MIDI notes

And finally, yes, you can also record into the sequencer using standard MIDI
Old 19th December 2016
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wald View Post
So what you are saying is that I should replace a well established workflow that uses hardware controllers to enter step note data with a Kontakt interface -- clicking around with a mouse??



This is *exactly* my complaint. Instead of improving TR, I have to use a new Kontakt instrument with what seems to be (at least for now) a clunky interface that breaks my workflow and adds lots of Kontakt-based features I do not need.
Can you explain your concerns in more details please. All of our instruments have always been Kontakt Instruments. Nothing has changed here. We have simply created a better workflow, and imporved everything we possibility can in regards to sound quality.

Is it a lack of Maschine support that you are missing? If so, Revolution gives more Maschine support and integration than any of our past instruments.

As previously stated, if you don't like the Kontakt FX, you can simply turn them off. They all have on/off switches

If you are not happy with Transistor Revolution, then please feel to send me an e-mail via our website, and I will happily refund you for your purchase, no questions asked.
Old 19th December 2016
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wave alchemy View Post
You of course don't need to the use the sequencer within Revolution if it's not your thing. Revolution features MIDI drag and drop too, so you can create quick patterns and sketch ideas in its sequencer, and then drag these ideas to your DAW sequencer and edit them further if required.
Thats neat.
Old 20th December 2016
  #51
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noticed an error in the manual - it says that play stop/start can be controlled with MIDI note C-1, but this note is assigned to step 1 of the sequencer. stop is triggered with MIDI note F3 (not mentioned) and hitting any of the 12 pattern keys (F2 through E3) starts playback. also not mentioned if F#3, which re-triggers the pattern from the start (like on the older products), but this doesn't seem as smooth as it did on the others. the sequence reverse (G#3) and sequence stutter (A#3) functions are very cool and work very smoothly (unless you have swing/shuffle applied, then the stutter sounds odd when it repeats on a swung step). also not mentioned, C4 clears/erases the whole currently selected pattern.

it would be great if all these MIDI keyboard controls could be re-mapped (or at least "disabled"), can this be done inside Kontakt?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wave alchemy View Post
1. In regards to the swing / shuffle. It sounds like you are using the 'shuffle' control rather than swing control. Revolution features separate swing and shuffle functions. To use Swing you need to use negative values on the swing control. 0 to minus 100% will give you swing. 0 to plus 100% will give you shuffle (as found on most vintage drum machines)
the manual makes no mention of this, but you're right. negative values give me the behavior that i'm expecting. seeing as this is what most people would likely expect/prefer from a "Swing" control, would it please be possible to reverse this so that positive values introduce "swing" and negative values introduce "shuffle"? the control is labeled "Swing" after all. honestly, i don't see why most anyone would want the "shuffle" function at all.

i was hoping that this might be the case with 'Transistor Revolution MkII' which i've mentioned previously, but no. not sure what's up with that, but i hope that you guys will take care of it. (i'll get back to you via email about that.)

Quote:
2. Could you please elaborate on this point? Switching between modules is pretty instant here, and we've not heard of any complaints on this from our beta testers.
it's not as bad as i made it out to be, but sometimes there's a slight lag that i notice when playing sounds from the keys. it gets "stuck" on one image and doesn't update. no big deal really.

that makes me ask though - is there no "mute MIDI input" option like on the others? seems like it'll always trigger the sound if selecting sounds via MIDI keys.

Quote:
3. Revolution Demo features only 2 Reverb IRs. ... Can I ask what it is that you don't like about these? Perhaps you simply didn't like the 2 IRs we included for the demo, which I guess are personal preference.
i'll hold off on this until i spend some time with the full release. i will mention though that they're glitchy as hell to adjust (probably just the nature of convolution reverbs?), which quickly kills my enthusiasm when working with them.

Quote:
In regards to the other FX (compressors etc). These are the same effects as included in many of NI's flagship products. The same goes for the filters. Can I ask what exactly you didn't like about them?
honestly, it's hard to say what i don't like about them, but they all seem a bit "off" or "cheap" sounding. the filters can be especially bad, crank the resonance and sweep the cutoff. yuck. they can definitely be useful if tamed though.

Quote:
4. We will look into the delay. If what you suggested is true - this may be a bug and as such will be a simple fix
cool, thanks. i doubt i'll be using it either way, but those who will would want it working correctly. dotted 8th notes are a pretty popular setting. don't know if there's anything that you can do about the ~15ms value jumps though, that's pretty unfortunate that it does that.

Quote:
5. Sample Start - Yes, the whole point of sample start in Revolution is to cut very slightly into the transient of the selected drum sound, which in turn can either soften the sound, or change the tone of the sound in interesting ways.
i can understand this, you don't want it to vary too much on drum sounds. just a little more range would be useful though (a few more milliseconds?), it barely does anything.

Quote:
6. Amp Decay - Yes, this is limited in range as we wanted to keep things simple from a user point of view. Remember - this is a digital envelope, and this parameter is different to any of the decay settings found in the actual drum modules. ... This additional digital envelope simply allows you 'shape' the sound even more so if required
that's the thing, it doesn't allow me to shape it enough. i like to really cut the decays short on a lot of sounds (sometimes automating this value), i find this is especially useful for snares, claps, hats, pretty much anything. the current decay control stops well short of what i find useful. using negative Sustain values on the transient shaper helps a bit, but still not what i'd like. i use both of these functions together on the other products. please consider changing this, it's a pretty big deal to me (and probably others i would guess). i don't see any point/advantage in limiting how short you can cut the decay.

Quote:
7. In regards to the +/- % amount above the drum module knobs. I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but this function routes the below knob to velocity ...
sorry, that's not what i meant. see the knobs for the 808, 909, 707, 8000 modules? they each have an indicator mark on them. this doesn't match up with the indicator marks around the knob at +/- 100% (or 0% and 100% depending on how the knob works). a little cosmetic detail, but it drives me nuts. ... some of the sliders look like they stop a little short at the bottom as well.

you don't notice this on the 606 or Drumulator knobs because there's no indicator marks around them.

Quote:
8.In regards to the global sequencer accent. ... The difference between unaccented and accented is clear. If we do receive a lot of messages from customers about this, we may consider changing the colour to red however
not sure how this wasn't obvious, but i was talking about the LEDs on the step buttons themselves. the yellow is perfectly bright, but the red/orange light (when hitting the step a second time to accent the note) isn't much brighter to me than when the step isn't lit at all. ... i love the Global Accent strip above the step buttons though, that's great. especially nice that the amount of accent is variable.

i noticed a similar thing with the solo/mute buttons on the mixer. the blinking yellow solo button is great, but i can barely tell if the channel is muted or not (changes to a very light orange). either a bright orange or yellow (same as solo) would be great.

Quote:
I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.
definitely, thank you. sorry to express myself so harshly on some things.

Last edited by jbuonacc; 20th December 2016 at 02:33 AM..
Old 20th December 2016
  #52
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i noticed in the manual where it talks about the Voice Select not being available for Kick and Snare voices. are the two 707 kicks and snares (for example) switched between by using a knob, like with 'Digital Revolution' (using the Variation slider)? didn't like that at all. why not with the Voice Select menu, like how you choose between 707 closed/open hi-hats in 'REVOLUTION'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wave alchemy View Post
... in regards to digital envelopes, filter and other settings. These can actually all be changed at the same time, across all sounds by simply Alt / Option clicking any of the knobs and dragging it. This will now change the selected control fall ALL drum machines at the same time. The same goes for reverb sends and pretty much all other controls in Revolution. We have lots of these time saving key commands.
ahh, this is cool. is this documented at all? i've never any mention of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wave alchemy View Post
I understand your point, but after research it appears that most people like the idea of having a complete drum machine design.
i'm sure that many do. i'm also sure that many would prefer the option of both.

Quote:
We may look at introducing some individual modules in the future
yes, please do. just one generic "module" which could load any of the 'REVOLUTION' drum modules would be perfect. as popular as Maschine and Ableton's "Drum Racks" are, i seriously can't believe that this isn't already included. seems like it would be very simple for you to do this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wave alchemy View Post
This is incorrect - simply ctrl + click any control in Revolution to return it to it's default setting. Alternatively you can also option / alt + ctrl click controls to return all of the controls in that group of parameters to default,
perfect, thank you for this. again though, is this documented? (nope, don't see anything about this in the manual.)
Old 20th December 2016
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coorec View Post
... Its sad that honest buyers (like some of us still are) have to suffer from it and cant use these exceptional samples in our hardware samplers. Especially with new things like Toraiz or MPC live coming out. However it certainly is not your fault.
exactly how would you plan to "use these samples" in your hardware sampler? there are thousands of samples of the 909 kick alone. honestly, i don't think the samples are any better than anything else out there (Goldbaby, etc), especially when it comes to the digital drum machines. plenty of options for those, including the free kits that have been available for ~20 years. i sure don't get the feeling that these 707, DX, etc samples are "better" than anything i've already got. the whole selling point of this is the analog machine samples triggered by the round-robin Kontakt engine. without that it's no better than dropping samples into whatever sampler.

that's why the Maschine and Ableton packs for the older products were lame, they just used single samples for each sound and totally missed what made those products exceptional. this is also why the individual modules that they came with were so damn useful, you could keep your standard workflow (Maschine kits, Ableton racks, etc) and make use of the round-robin samples.

you could always just "sample" the sounds yourself from 'REVOLUTION' into whatever. probably better off going that route anyway... make some patterns that utilize the round-robin samples, then record them to WAV to be used and/or chopped in your other samplers.

Quote:
I am looking forward to see how its done in Maschine. So far i didnt use Komplete Kontrol and feel uncertain about it. But i am willing to learn. We will see.
for Maschine, you're either going to be using this all inside one "Instrument" track (1-16), or maybe put in on channel 16 in your kit and use 1-14 to sequence and send MIDI internally to 'REVOLUTION' on 16.

the Komplete Kontrol software is actually pretty great. i like to use it for certain things because it's easy to assign macro controls, and has a nice arpeggiator and chord function built into it. doesn't work inside Maschine, but doesn't really need to as Maschine does most of the same things anyway.
Old 20th December 2016
  #54
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Hi everyone!

My name is Matthew Fudge and I'm the developer of Revolution with Wave Alchemy. In fact I have been developing this range of products for over 6 years and have written every single line of code, and helped record many of the samples, on every revolution instrument.

First I want to thank all of you for showing so much passion for our products! Seriously this is the we make these products to the level we do. We received so much positive feedback, and thoughtful criticism, of our previous instruments that we really felt the follow up needed to be something special.

A few points I should make clear off the top

1) This will not be a single release, no support instrument. 100% of this instrument is developed by us and our team. Not one single ounce of this product has been outsourced and this allows us to remain flexible and create future updates when we feel they are warranted.

2) Despite our best efforts, and countless nights of sleep deprivation, no piece of software in it's 1.0 release is bug free. But as has been said multiple times this is a labour of love and we will fix every single bug with the software. This also includes clerical errors in the manual

3) We care about what you have to say about our products. If something doesn't work for you let's talk about it. That doesn't mean we can always do something about it but at the very least we can explain our reasoning behind the choices we made with the design. Despite the new features and design nothing has been removed from the previous versions of the Revolution series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
noticed an error in the manual - it says that play stop/start can be controlled with MIDI note C-1, but this note is assigned to step 1 of the sequencer. stop is triggered with MIDI note F3 (not mentioned) and hitting any of the 12 pattern keys (F2 through E3) starts playback.

also not mentioned if F#3, which re-triggers the pattern from the start (like on the older products), but this doesn't seem as smooth as it did on the others. the sequence reverse (G#3) and sequence stutter (A#3) functions are very cool and work very smoothly (unless you have swing/shuffle applied, then the stutter sounds odd when it repeats on a swung step). also not mentioned, C4 clears/erases the whole currently selected pattern.
Yes, you are correct and apologies again about the confusion here. Please refer to page 28 for the correct mapping. We will make the necessary corrections in the other area you are referencing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
it would be great if all these MIDI keyboard controls could be re-mapped (or at least "disabled"), can this be done inside Kontakt
Absolutely. If users find that useful we can certainly add a lights out mode in the first 1.1 release that only enables the MIDI playback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
the manual makes no mention of this, but you're right. negative values give me the behavior that i'm expecting. seeing as this is what most people would likely expect/prefer from a "Swing" control, would it please be possible to reverse this so that positive values introduce "swing" and negative values introduce "shuffle"? the control is labeled "Swing" after all. honestly, i don't see why most anyone would want the "shuffle" function at all.
Not a problem. We received the same feedback from a beta tester and I have adjusted that behaviour now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
i was hoping that this might be the case with 'Transistor Revolution MkII' which i've mentioned previously, but no. not sure what's up with that, but i hope that you guys will take care of it. (i'll get back to you via email about that.)
I'm not sure changing that now would be wise as it would break current projects but please feel free to email us and I will prepare for yourself, and anyone else, a version where this is corrected for you. As mentioned above this will be addressed in Revolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
it's not as bad as i made it out to be, but sometimes there's a slight lag that i notice when playing sounds from the keys. it gets "stuck" on one image and doesn't update. no big deal really.
Yes, I understand what you're referring to here but in practical terms this will not effect usability or the sound. It's possible this could be further refined in a future version of Kontakt and if so we will do what we can to speed up this behaviour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
that makes me ask though - is there no "mute MIDI input" option like on the others? seems like it'll always trigger the sound if selecting sounds via MIDI keys.
It is correct that there is no mute MIDI input. We could look at adding a mute key in the next v1.1. release. This would allow you to hold a MIDI note (also assignable to a MIDI button) and when playing a note it would be muted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
i'll hold off on this until i spend some time with the full release. i will mention though that they're glitchy as hell to adjust (probably just the nature of convolution reverbs?), which quickly kills my enthusiasm when working with them.
It is true that convolution reverb needs time to calculate the IRs so there will be a brief silence when adjusting the controls. That being said with 160 high quality IRs of various high end acoustic, analog and digital units it's very easy to get a usable sound quickly. We strongly felt this approach was a sonic improvement over the algorithmic reverb found in Kontakt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
honestly, it's hard to say what i don't like about them, but they all seem a bit "off" or "cheap" sounding. the filters can be especially bad, crank the resonance and sweep the cutoff. yuck. they can definitely be useful if tamed though.
I understand what you mean and built in effects are not for everyone. As was mentioned previously it's very easy to disable them and not use them. We are shipping the instrument with dozens of starter presets that are completely clean and unprocessed. When using these you will have the exact same sound as the original machines (with even more flexibility). That being said allow me to make a few points regarding the superiority of built in effects in the following scenarios ...

1. Speed - Because all of the effects are under control of the instrument we can do things very quickly that would not be possible (as fast) with 3rd part effects. For instance if you want to increase tape saturation on all channels you can simply hold option and you are now increasing the tape saturation of all drum voices. This applies to every effects.

2. Workflow - There are many types of people who will find benefit from an instrument such as this. The following scenarios would greatly benefit from the built in effects ...
- Professional songwriters who need inspiring starting points to write to and show a producer.
- Professional producers who use the effects as inspiration only to turn them off later and recreate with 3rd party effects
- Professional composers who need to move quick and want mix ready sounds immediately from a product.
- Aspiring producers who are not able, or interested, in mixing their own music

... This list could go on for quite some time but I hope you can understand where we are coming from. We are not removing your ability to not use the effects but if we didn't include them we would be remove these four groups of people (and many others) from using built in effects. By including them, and giving the option to disregard them, everyone wins

As well I should mention that some effects such as Delay / Reverb Enable and the master limiter are remembered on a per instrument basis. So if you would like to audition presets without hearing those effects you can easily do so.

We hear your (and others demand) for a stripped down light (module) version. This isn’t exactly easy but we can certainly look at creating this for the 1.1 update release.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
cool, thanks. i doubt i'll be using it either way, but those who will would want it working correctly. dotted 8th notes are a pretty popular setting. don't know if there's anything that you can do about the ~15ms value jumps though, that's pretty unfortunate that it does that.
Thank you for pointing this out to us. Although we have a great beta team and we are always using and checking this ourselves it seems a last minute bug has crept into the code and kept this from working as expected. It has now been fixed so absolutely no worries. This will be corrected for release.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
i can understand this, you don't want it to vary too much on drum sounds. just a little more range would be useful though (a few more milliseconds?), it barely does anything.

that's the thing, it doesn't allow me to shape it enough. i like to really cut the decays short on a lot of sounds (sometimes automating this value), i find this is especially useful for snares, claps, hats, pretty much anything. the current decay control stops well short of what i find useful. using negative Sustain values on the transient shaper helps a bit, but still not what i'd like. i use both of these functions together on the other products. please consider changing this, it's a pretty big deal to me (and probably others i would guess). i don't see any point/advantage in limiting how short you can cut the decay.
We appreciate the feedback here. We will increase this for the 1.0 release but again this is digital and doesn't effect the analog decay settings (which have been sampled) from the original machines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
sorry, that's not what i meant. see the knobs for the 808, 909, 707, 8000 modules? they each have an indicator mark on them. this doesn't match up with the indicator marks around the knob at +/- 100% (or 0% and 100% depending on how the knob works). a little cosmetic detail, but it drives me nuts. ... some of the sliders look like they stop a little short at the bottom as well.

you don't notice this on the 606 or Drumulator knobs because there's no indicator marks around them.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here but perhaps this has to do with the the 3D interface? Because the instrument is designed in 3D with a natural perspective. Regardless though, the designer of the instrument is extremely detail oriented and if there is an error here it will be corrected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
not sure how this wasn't obvious, but i was talking about the LEDs on the step buttons themselves. the yellow is perfectly bright, but the red/orange light (when hitting the step a second time to accent the note) isn't much brighter to me than when the step isn't lit at all. ... i love the Global Accent strip above the step buttons though, that's great. especially nice that the amount of accent is variable.

i noticed a similar thing with the solo/mute buttons on the mixer. the blinking yellow solo button is great, but i can barely tell if the channel is muted or not (changes to a very light orange). either a bright orange or yellow (same as solo) would be great.
I'm looking at the GUI now and unless there is something I'm missing I'm not sure I see that. Unaccented is yellow and accented is red. They are quite visibly different and easy to tell apart. Again I will pass this note on to the designer and we will weigh this along with the overall feedback we receive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
definitely, thank you. sorry to express myself so harshly on some things.
Thank you jbuonacc and you're welcome we're happy to see such passionate feedback both positive, and negative, for our work. We're extremely committed to Revolution and do everything possible to make it the best it can possibly be. We appreciated the feedback and I am more than happy to personally respond to every single request and concern anyone has with the instrument so please feel free to tell us what you like and aren’t liking as much
Old 20th December 2016
  #55
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
i noticed in the manual where it talks about the Voice Select not being available for Kick and Snare voices.
Correct. Unlike hihats (closed/open) or toms (low/mid/high) there are no other options for these voices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
are the two 707 kicks and snares (for example) switched between by using a knob, like with 'Digital Revolution' (using the Variation slider)? didn't like that at all. why not with the Voice Select menu, like how you choose between 707 closed/open hi-hats in 'REVOLUTION'?
Yes, they still behave in the previous way. The reason for this is simplicity. Both for us having to develop this and for users having to learn multiple conventions. We felt having this on a slider with velocity modulation available was the best solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
ahh, this is cool. is this documented at all? i've never any mention of this.
We were just discussing this today. It will be added to the manual for the final release on Thursday

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
i'm sure that many do. i'm also sure that many would prefer the option of both.

yes, please do. just one generic "module" which could load any of the 'REVOLUTION' drum modules would be perfect. as popular as Maschine and Ableton's "Drum Racks" are, i seriously can't believe that this isn't already included. seems like it would be very simple for you to do this.
As mentioned above we will do a module version for the 1.1 release in the near future. Unfortunately it's not exactly simple (thousands of new lines of code and numerous graphics assets) but we will create this as there is obviously a demand

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
perfect, thank you for this. again though, is this documented? (nope, don't see anything about this in the manual.)
Thanks for spotting that. We'll adjust that as well
Old 20th December 2016
  #56
Gear Nut
 

Cheers Wave Alchemy! Thanks for your support, good to know about the swing/shuffle implementation as I was a bit confused. I'm looking forward to purchasing on release

Given all the envelope options and other effects this reminds me a bit of an elektron machinedrum - analog rytm hybrid using top notch TR samples as a sound source.... This is a bit of a dream come true for me honestly, so its great to receive such immediate response and support from the developers.


Also quick question, were the digital drum machines (Tr707,505,ect) round robin sampled through tape as well? I understand round robin sampling would have minimal effect as the units playback digital samples but when being fed through tape there would be no doubt some added nuance and variability, no? Certainly splitting hairs but I thought I'd ask regardless

Last edited by Nleif; 20th December 2016 at 05:56 AM.. Reason: quick question
Old 20th December 2016
  #57
Lives for gear
 
jbuonacc's Avatar
wow, i don't even know what to say...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Outside View Post
... showing so much passion for our products!
haha... that's the way to look at it. i appreciate the older "revolution" products the more that i use them, they're really great and i'm sure i'll continue to use them even with owning the new 'REVOLUTION'. i just want this thing to be perfect. i've been using the 'REVOLUTION' demo quite a bit since yesterday and am liking it more and more. will definitely be buying it on the 22nd, i hope your servers up are to the task.

Quote:
This will not be a single release, no support instrument. 100% of this instrument is developed by us and our team. Not one single ounce of this product has been outsourced and this allows us to remain flexible and create future updates when we feel they are warranted.
great to hear that you'll be continuing to develop this as time goes on. it's worth it, there's really nothing quite like it on the market and deserves this sort of effort/attention. hoping that a lot of people who have never used the older "revolution" products will be purchasing this new "all in one" version.

Quote:
Absolutely. If users find that useful we can certainly add a lights out mode in the first 1.1 release that only enables the MIDI playback.
awesome. not sure how you might implement it, or exactly what i'd wish for myself, but great to hear that you're open to discussion on it.

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Not a problem. We received the same feedback from a beta tester and I have adjusted that behaviour now.
wow, can't believe it. thanks so much!

Quote:
I'm not sure changing that now would be wise as it would break current projects but please feel free to email us and I will prepare for yourself, and anyone else, a version where this is corrected for you. As mentioned above this will be addressed in Revolution.
again... WOW. pretty floored by this level of customer service. i'll contact you guys soon via email regarding this. thanks again!!

Quote:
Yes, I understand what you're referring to here but in practical terms this will not effect usability or the sound. It's possible this could be further refined in a future version of Kontakt and if so we will do what we can to speed up this behaviour.
right on, not a huge concern. i only really noticed it (or expected it to work more smoothly) because it happens to work to well in the older products. with those it's just smooth instant switching back and forth, no lag or getting momentairly "stuck" at all.

Quote:
It is correct that there is no mute MIDI input. We could look at adding a mute key in the next v1.1. release. This would allow you to hold a MIDI note (also assignable to a MIDI button) and when playing a note it would be muted.
again, great to hear!

Quote:
(re: FX) ... I hope you can understand where we are coming from. We are not removing your ability to not use the effects but if we didn't include them we would be remove these four groups of people (and many others) from using built in effects. By including them, and giving the option to disregard them, everyone wins
completely understand, i won't mention them again. thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning, much appreciated.

Quote:
We hear your (and others demand) for a stripped down light (module) version. This isn’t exactly easy but we can certainly look at creating this for the 1.1 update release.
not getting my hopes up, but i'm very happy to hear that you'd even consider this.

Quote:
Thank you for pointing this out to us. ... It has now been fixed so absolutely no worries. This will be corrected for release.
great to hear, glad that i could help.

Quote:
We appreciate the feedback here. We will increase this for the 1.0 release but again this is digital and doesn't effect the analog decay settings (which have been sampled) from the original machines.
sorry, not sure if i'm reading this wrong or if there's some confusion. i'm talking about shortening the Decay amount, not increasing it.

ie - with Attack and Hold at zero, bringing the Decay knob to zero barely cuts the sound any shorter at all (it acts like there's still some "hold" applied to it). for all sorts of sounds i like to really cut the sound short (sort of "gate" it, with a bit of release), which i was able to do using the Decay parameter on the older "revolution" products (with Hold set to zero). can't do that now.

this is actually one of my biggest concerns, i really hope that this can be adjusted.

Quote:
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here but perhaps this has to do with the the 3D interface? Because the instrument is designed in 3D with a natural perspective. Regardless though, the designer of the instrument is extremely detail oriented and if there is an error here it will be corrected.
i see what you mean about the 3D perspective of the panel knobs, but i'm talking about the "flat" module controls. for example, it's easy to see on the Tune and Decay knobs of the 909 Tom in the demo. the orange indicator mark on the knob itself doesn't line up with the indicator marks around the knob. if the indicator marks around the Decay knob show 0 to 100 (which they do, there's 11 marks around the knob with 5 smaller divisions in each), the knob looks like it only goes from something like 2 to 98.

sorry to make a big deal out of this, functionally it makes no difference. just looks really wrong to me.

also, most of the sliders (caps) look like they should travel a pixel or so lower than they do. the way it lines up with the horizontal indicator marks on the "RVSP-12" module made me notice this.

Quote:
I'm looking at the GUI now and unless there is something I'm missing I'm not sure I see that. Unaccented is yellow and accented is red. They are quite visibly different and easy to tell apart. Again I will pass this note on to the designer and we will weigh this along with the overall feedback we receive.
definitely not for me, but that might be because i'm a touch colorblind (?). i can see the yellow perfectly fine, but i have to really look close to tell if the red is lit or not. a brighter red/orange would be much easier i think.

not sure if this makes sense or is worth mentioning, but i think orange in particular would be a better choice for the color there, as it's closer to the yellow for the "normal" hits. it makes me think that they're both showing hits in the sequencer, but that one is "burning hotter" (accented). with red my mind is thinking/questioning "why are they two completely different colors?" and doesn't think of them as both being hits of the same sound. ...or something like that. again, not sure if that makes sense to anyone.

the little Mute button on the mixer is REALLY hard for me to see, i can barely tell that it's lit at all when engaged. really confused me at first because i forgot that i muted something and couldn't tell why i wasn't getting any sound out of that channel. again, i can see the bright yellow light on the Solo button just fine.

Quote:
Thank you jbuonacc and you're welcome we're happy to see such passionate feedback both positive, and negative, for our work. We're extremely committed to Revolution and do everything possible to make it the best it can possibly be. We appreciated the feedback and I am more than happy to personally respond to every single request and concern anyone has with the instrument so please feel free to tell us what you like and aren’t liking as much
thrilled to hear, thanks so much for your feedback on all of this.
Old 20th December 2016
  #58
Lives for gear
 
jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Outside View Post
Correct. Unlike hihats (closed/open) or toms (low/mid/high) there are no other options for these voices.
ahh, that reminds me. one thing i found odd about 'Digital Revolution' is that (for example) the DX Toms all used the same sample, but the three were pitched differently using the variation slider. i guess this is technically correct (as the DX itself referenced all Toms from a single EPROM), but each of the DX Toms had its own specific pitch range. i always thought that these should have been sampled individually to properly represent the original machines, even if it cost some extra time and required more samples. i was a little disappointed to see this, but maybe in reality there isn't much difference as long as all possible pitches are accessible via the variation slider.

Quote:
Yes, they still behave in the previous way. The reason for this is simplicity. Both for us having to develop this and for users having to learn multiple conventions. We felt having this on a slider with velocity modulation available was the best solution.
ahh, i see. when i saw that the 707 hats were set up like that, i was hoping that you would have done the same with the kicks and snares. i guess it doesn't really matter though. ... it's been years since i've owned a TR-707, could the kicks and snares be used at the same time and "layered", or did they "choke" and cut each other off if both were programmed on the same step?

Quote:
As mentioned above we will do a module version for the 1.1 release in the near future. Unfortunately it's not exactly simple (thousands of new lines of code and numerous graphics assets) but we will create this as there is obviously a demand
holy cow, man. that would be fantastic. i can't stress enough how great it is to have this option. being able to load some "realistic" round-robin 909 claps or 808 snares onto a Maschine channel (for example), instead of loading up the whole interface just for one or two sounds.

i'd be completely happy with a stripped-down empty "REVOLUTION module" container, with MIDI note learn and a Decay parameter like on the old ones of course. (with or without insert fx - i do find the transient shaper really useful for each sound, and the built-in EQ works in a pinch.)




one thing that is different/missing from the new 'REVOLUTION' is how the Hi-Hats were controlled with a single slider on the mixer (as well as both hats running through the same transient shaper, EQ, etc). this was a really great feature, and worked just like on the 707, DX, etc... definitely not the same with the individual mixer channels on 'REVOLUTION'. i was going to ask if maybe the hi-hat mixer controls could be linked, but with the removal of the individual Volume controls from the drum modules, this isn't what you'd want either. any thoughts on this? i guess the only "solution" is to route the hi-hats to their own channel in the DAW?
Old 20th December 2016
  #59
Gear Addict
 
wave alchemy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuonacc View Post
ahh, that reminds me. one thing i found odd about 'Digital Revolution' is that (for example) the DX Toms all used the same sample, but the three were pitched differently using the variation slider. i guess this is technically correct (as the DX itself referenced all Toms from a single EPROM), but each of the DX Toms had its own specific pitch range. i always thought that these should have been sampled individually to properly represent the original machines, even if it cost some extra time and required more samples. i was a little disappointed to see this, but maybe in reality there isn't much difference as long as all possible pitches are accessible via the variation slider.
I can confirm that we have in fact sampled all 3 Toms from the OB-DX. The OB-DX features only one tom, which can be set at only 3 pitches. They are not pitched over a full range of pitches.

This is taken from the DX Manual:

Toms / Toms with 3 pitches.

luckily we also sampled the DX to an SP-1200 and re-pitched every sound on the actual SP-1200 over a full range - so using this mode gives you more pitch range than the original OB-DX
Old 20th December 2016
  #60
Lives for gear
 
jbuonacc's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by wave alchemy View Post
I can confirm that we have in fact sampled all 3 Toms from the OB-DX. The OB-DX features only one tom, which can be set at only 3 pitches. They are not pitched over a full range of pitches.
huh? though they're all coming from the same EPROM (just like most all other drum machines from this time), there's definitely three "Toms (HI, MID, LOW)". these all have pretty large (individual, distinct) pitch ranges, which can be set using the tuning knob on the back of the DX. all these pitches are "linked" (the knob pitches all three up or down at once) and i'm sure there's some overlap, but i think it would have been worthwhile to sample all three Toms and their pitch ranges separately.

Quote:
luckily we also sampled the DX to an SP-1200 and re-pitched every sound on the actual SP-1200 over a full range - so using this mode gives you more pitch range than the original OB-DX
so what are you saying? how exactly were the "Analog" samples of the DX recorded? 'Digital Revolution' is the only one where you can't see the samples themselves, but it seems like there's roughly 24 different pitches.

the DX Toms (from HI to LOW) have a huge pitch range, with an amazing "weight" to them all the way down (in much the same way, i remember the Drum-Traks having some serious body and low-end when pitching down TOM1). the DX LOW Tom at lowest pitch setting can shake the walls.

here's a (14 minutes long) recording of the DX Toms that i made a few years ago when i had a DX. it features every possible pitch that the machine can put out, i did this for all the other sounds as well. i programmed a pattern that played each Tom one after another (maybe on steps 1, 5, and 9? the LOW Tom has a long decay so i planned for that), and set it to play at a low BPM. while this was playing back i slowly adjusted the pitch control on the back of the DX from the highest setting to the lowest, making very slight adjustments to capture every available pitch. there's at least a few individual hits at each pitch.

you can tell right from the beginning that the actual DX Toms pitch range extends higher than your samples do, and it goes lower as well. i never bothered to check these old samples of mine before now, but your comments made me curious.

EDIT: here's the link...


Last edited by jbuonacc; 20th December 2016 at 12:58 PM..
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