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E-RM Multiclock WITHOUT a DAW Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 25th June 2016
  #1
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E-RM Multiclock WITHOUT a DAW

Dear Gearslutz community,

I was just wondering if anyone could share his/her experience on using the E-RM Multiclock to synchronize hardware gear (without a computer/daw).

I would like be feeding the sync box a master clock coming from my Roland TR-8 and then I wish to output its clock through a midified Ace-Tone FR-3 drum machine and a couple of analog synths sequencers.

I am also curious to hear of other alternatives that this product.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Octave
Old 25th June 2016
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octave Octavio View Post

I would like be feeding the sync box a master clock coming from my Roland TR-8 and then I wish to output its clock through a midified Ace-Tone FR-3 drum machine and a couple of analog synths sequencers.
The ERM Multiclock works flawlessy with or without a computer in my experience. For quite a while after first getting it I used it without a DAW and sent it's internal clock out to several synths and sequencers. I have more than 4 external devices which can be clocked so I bought a Kawai-MV8 to split the clock out to extra destinations. This all went without a hitch.

I have not tried to use another devices midi clock as the master and then having the Multiclock distribute this clock to other devices though. I can't really see the wisdom in doing things this way either since you will be bypassing the Multiclocks main purpose and feature - it's very stable and precise clock generation. When using a DAW the Multiclock is taking an audio signal and not midi to generate the clock from. The manual strongly recommends not using other midi clocks as a reference since you will not benefit from the tight stable clock the Multiclock is designed for.

The alternatives are the Innerclock SyncGen, SND ACME-4, ExpertSLeepers Modules...

All of these have slightly different feature sets and prices. I'm extremely happy with the Multiclock - it has really made an impact on my setup - massive difference to how things sound when they are really locked in together tightly.
Old 25th June 2016
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lectrojape View Post
... I have more than 4 external devices which can be clocked so I bought a Kawai-MV8 to split the clock out to extra destinations. This all went without a hitch.

I have not tried to use another devices midi clock as the master and then having the Multiclock distribute this clock to other devices though. I can't really see the wisdom in doing things this way either since you will be bypassing the Multiclocks main purpose and feature

Thanks a lot for a such a precise and complete answer. You're right, there is no point in using the TR-8 as a master clock, I was thinking of doing so because in my setup it provides my steady kick drum beat which defines the tempo and also, it would save me up one slot because I have more than 4 external devices as well...

Could you please elaborate on the Kawai-MV8 ? I don't seem to be finding much information about it.

Thanks again
Old 25th June 2016
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octave Octavio View Post
Thanks a lot for a such a precise and complete answer. You're right, there is no point in using the TR-8 as a master clock, I was thinking of doing so because in my setup it provides my steady kick drum beat which defines the tempo and also, it would save me up one slot because I have more than 4 external devices as well...

Could you please elaborate on the Kawai-MV8 ? I don't seem to be finding much information about it.

Thanks again
Whoops, my mistake - I should have said Kawai MAV8 not MV8! It's just an old midi patchbay with 4 ins and 8 outs. It is a passive design which means very low latency and lets you send any of the 4 inputs to any of the 8 outs - perfect for the Multiclocks 4 channels. Really easy to use too since it has switches on the front to choose the source for each of the 8 outs. This way you can send your clock to 8 bits of gear and choose which share the same clock - which is handy because gear can have very different reaction times/lag when they first respond to a clock signal. If they a very different you will need to give them different clock channels and adjust them to suit. If they are pretty close, or you are able to make fine adjustments on the slave device itself, you can let them share a clock no problem. Some of my sequencers and synths have similar enough start time/lag when slaved that I can slave them of the same clock - others need their own.
Old 25th June 2016
  #5
I have a Multiclock and use one DIN for my modular into a Pams, one analog sync for my SH-101, and one or two midi or DIN outputs for drum machines. It works fantastic and keeps my large, mixed setup locked tightly together. I find the ability to shift tracks immensely useful and usually have an offset programmed for my SH-101 sequencer and drum machine so everything sounds super tight and groovy. The analog gear is more likely to have sequencer start timing issues, so you may want to use separate clock tracks for each of those since you can set start-stop offsets per track. I don't have any problems chaining my MIDI gear, although it would be nice to have more channels to break them out. I use a old Roland MM-4 thru box to mult the MIDI signal rather than use thru jacks.

If I'm OTB, the Multiclock is always the master since it has the tightest timing of any device. AFAIK other than the Roland sync box, which doesn't have most of the ERM's coolest features, there's nothing in the same price category that can match it. The ACME-4 is similar to the MC but way more expensive, and the Expert Sleepers and Innerclock gear require a PC/Mac to work and also don't have the same cool hardware features of the ERM. If you have one, congratulations! If not and you're thinking of it, just buy one. It's worth every penny. You will love it too.

P.S. and if you choose to work with a PC, the ERM does that too.
Old 27th June 2016
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmey View Post
If not and you're thinking of it, just buy one. It's worth every penny. You will love it too.
Thanks to both of you, for the moment I have all the information I need and I am grateful.
Old 20th March 2017
  #7
Gear Nut
Octave Octavio just curious if you ended up purchasing the multiclock??? And if so what are your thoughts? I'm thinking of buying a dedicated clock generator and the multiclock is the front runner at the moment. Currently have a Vermona DRM mkiii, dreadbox erebus & hades sequenced with a beatstep pro and everything through a soundcraft fx16ii. I record everything in one take into a tascam multitrack and as my studio expands I really think having a clock generator for everything will be beneficial.

Cheers
Old 2 weeks ago
  #8
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I have an Akai MPC5000 and Motif XF. I also have an Alesis HD24 and Digital Performer is my DAW and (2) MOTU MTP AV MIDI I/O.
The Alesis HD24XR as MTC master and the MPC and Motif as slaves doesn't get the sequencers in sync together. Even the HD24 making multiple passes of either the MPC or Motif has drift between each take. Maybe the MTC is not super accurate each pass or maybe the MPC and Motif tempo's are not super constant each pass. The multiple passes of the hardware sequencers flam and drift. Unusable and not perfectly synced.
I think the only way to sync accurately would be to stripe the HD24 with a sync code that controls a MIDI beat clock.

If I used an SND ACME4 or ERM multi clock or Innerclock, how would I locate to different bars of the song.
If I use Digital Performer transmitting MIDI beat clock I get accurate sync of the MPC and Motif. I haven't tested multiple passes of tracking the MPC or Motif with DP as the MIDI clock master yet. And if I go to any bar/measure in DP the MPC and Motif follow. So DP must be sending 'Song Position Pointer' messages. But if I have the MPC or Motif as master of the other, neither follow the location changes I make on the MPC or Motif as MIDI beat clock master.

Do these MIDI clock generators allow SPP locating or are you supposed to just start from the beginning of your song every time?
How would SPP be transmitted and where from?

Could I
Old 1 week ago
  #9
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MIDI clock generators, SPP, no-one?
Old 1 week ago
  #10
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shabbyroad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
MIDI clock generators, SPP, no-one?
SPP pass through is supported by the ERM Multiclock i believe. Take a look at the manual where it is mentioned.
Old 1 week ago
  #11
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If I slave my MPC5000 and/or Motif XF to the Alesis HD24XR transmitting MIDI time code, I get inconsistent start times of the sequencers and drift of multiple passes of a hi-hat timing reference.
If I slave the MPC or Motif to the other via MIDI beat clock, the slave is always a couple of 480PPQN ticks late, but also the start time of the slave is inconsistent i.e. varying amounts of flamm'ing Which requires me to restart from a bar until I get the closest flam'ing sync result. I am able to change location on either the MPC or Motif when acting as MIDI clock master and the slave follows the song bar position using the location buttons. And in the case of the Motif the location dial also works.

When I slave the MPC5000 and Motif XF to Digital Performer sending MIDI beat clock, I get the tightest timing. Both the hi-hats from the MPC and the Motif XF sound together like one hi-hat. I can change location and both hardware sequencers follow the bar/measure location. I haven't tested multiple passes of tracking the slaved hi-hat as audio to test the DP tempo consistency yet.

I'm reading through the Multi-clock manual to try to understand how this Multi-clock works and what it is capable of in regards to my needs.
I would like to be able to stripe the HD24XR's 24th track with a sync code for accurate sync that would produce a single MIDI clock source to have the MPC5000 and Motif XF in tight sync. But also accurate in it's tempo so that I can record audio in the HD24XR along to the sequencers and have it play back the same relative timing rather than the drifting I am currently getting. Or multiple passes of drum instruments and have them play back like one pass. No drift.

Another sync scenario would be simply composing on the hardware sequencers MPC and Motif. The MPC as an independently switchable drum pattern machine and the Motif XF as the linear non drum instruments MIDI sequencer. But perfectly synced. At the moment I can use DP as a usable MIDI beat clock master.

I am up to the part in the Multi-clock manual that says:
'Make sure to send SPP information only to one of the four USB MIDI ports or DIN MIDI In.'

If I wanted to use the Multi-clock's internal MIDI beat clock generator (with the DAW/computer off) then I would want 'Song Position Pointer' messages sent to both the MPC and the Motif. Why is the manual stating to only send SPP to one MIDI port?

Ideally I could use the transport and location buttons/dial of either the MPC5000 or Motif XF and when I press play the Multi-clock becomes the MIDI beat clock source.

So with my understanding of MMC, MIDI clock and SPP. I would want the Multi-clock to respond to the play, stop, forward and rewind and song position messages. The Multi-clock would have a linear timeline with SPP built in perhaps? I have yet to read the whole manual. But how would I use the Multi-clock in the scenarios I have described?
Old 1 week ago
  #12
Gear Head
ive got an E-RM multiclock and I would say it's main strength lies in converting its DAW based audio plugin to MIDI clock or if you dont use a large scale sequencer like squarp pyramid/squentix etc..

I think if you are using lots of separate device based sequencers like sh101 mentioned above however if you have those and a large scale based one I found it less mentally involving to use the large sequencer as a master..

You can then use it's functions to offset clock etc on the slave device etc..

However when you are using a separate sequencer this model becomes more complicated..

Sure you can use as a master clock but if you are dawless and using a sequencer you *may want to use master clock from there...

I have the Squarp pyramid and the multiclock cannot for example store the BPM for a current track so you will have to use some method to record the bpm for each track etc..

it's been a while since I have used it to be honest but i do remember it causing me grief in regards to starting external sequences .. in the end i have abandoned it until i use a DAW again in which case i would use it's plugin to translate the hi-frequency audio ticks it produces to create a high quality midi clock
Old 1 week ago
  #13
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Sebastian from ERM has emailed me confirming that the Multi-clock passes on SPP from a DAW. And when it is in stand alone mode generating MIDI clock from it's internal clock it also generates SPP.

I am trying to visualise how it would integrate into an MPC5000 and Motif sequencers synced together workflow.
IOW, how is the transport and location controlled?

If I am composing on my MPC5000 and Motif XF both slaved to the Multi-clock. All I need to do is be able to play, stop and locate to any bar/measure in the song via the Multi-clock.
Recording on the MPC and Motif is achieved by 'record enabling' the MPC or Motif then starting the master MIDI clock.
How would this be managed? When I have the MPC or Motif as MIDI clock master of the other I can use the locate buttons that move in bar/measures, forwards or backwards, I can use locate markers to go straight to a specific bar/measure and in the case of the Motif I can use the dial/jog wheel to dial a location on the bars/beats counter display and the MPC will follow.
I have checked the MPC5000 manual and it sends MMC commands:
Play from start,
play deferred,
stop,
MMC locate, step, bar.
These should be enough to control a MIDI clock generator.
If the Multi-clock responded the same way to the MPC or Motif then I should be able to use the MPC and Motif as if they were clocked internally, meaning I can use the transport controls and navigate the song. And as soon as I press play the Multi-clock takes over as the master clock keeping both sequencers in sync together.
Can you describe how the process would work in regards to how the Multi-clock integrates with its features and capabilities?
Thanks,
Roman.

Last edited by Roman; 1 week ago at 03:00 AM..
Old 1 week ago
  #14
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I have an ERM coming tomorrow. Here is how I will use it:

DAW (Bitwig) sends audio clock via plugin to ERM. ERM sends MIDI to Cirklon. Cirklon sequences and sends clock to my hardware synths and also sequences my VSTis in Bitwig.

IMO, a nice way to use these sync clocks is to use your sequencer as the single connection from the clock and then let that distribute the timing to your hardware devices via it's MIDI outs. Keeps things less confusing, at least for me.

I also compose most of my track in Cirklon and don't move around in the DAW. Once I get the arrangement how I want it, I print audio from all the parts into the DAW. That is where the sync clock comes in, since it puts everything on the grid and allows me to keep working and finish the song in the DAW. Many times at this point, I am done with the sequencer and am just adding live playing parts. If I decide I need to sequence a few more things to punch in, the clock ensures that the punches are in time with the rest of the audio.

Anyway, that's how I use it ( I had a USAMO box until this week)
Old 1 week ago
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
I have an ERM coming tomorrow. Here is how I will use it:

DAW (Bitwig) sends audio clock via plugin to ERM. ERM sends MIDI to Cirklon. Cirklon sequences and sends clock to my hardware synths and also sequences my VSTis in Bitwig.

IMO, a nice way to use these sync clocks is to use your sequencer as the single connection from the clock and then let that distribute the timing to your hardware devices via it's MIDI outs. Keeps things less confusing, at least for me.
Yes, so you are centralising all your MIDI composing in one hardware sequencer. Your need for a dedicated sample accurate MIDI clock generator is so that multiple passes are all in sync with the DAW grid.
I have the need for a consistent sync source for multiple passes as well.
I want to use the MPC5000 as a drum machine with switchable 'on the fly' drum patterns. I've always had an idea to treat the drum machine like a drummer where I could arrange the drum patterns live. Either the Motif XF or Digital Performer would sequence the non drum MIDI instruments. Probably in a more linear song fashion. Creating independence between the drum patterns and tithe rest of the song.
The MPC is syncing nicely with DP as the MIDI beat clock master. And the Motif as well, locking tight with the MPC. I haven't tested multiple passes with DP as the MIDI beat clock master yet. I haven't tracked the MPC or Motif in either. I assume it should be fine.

My main issue at the moment is not having the option of MIDI composing and recording audio without the DAW. I am determined to be able to work without the DAW as an option. Like an old tape days with hardware methodology.

So I need to be able to generate a MIDI clock from the HD24XR audio striped track, which I can do with the Innerclock Sync Gen or the ERM Multiclock by recording the sync plug in output to the 24th track of the HD24XR. Ir the ERM website states:
'simply record a 24ppq loop of our sync sample to one track'
If the loop is sequenced in the DAW, then that is where the BPM os set I suppose. Then the Multi-clock must start it's 'Song Position Pointer' messages from the start of the sync sample loop.

If the Multi-clock can also receive MMC commands for play from start, stop, continue and locate set bar then it seems to me it would seamless integrate with a hardware sequencer only scenario. Just set the MPC and Motif to slave to external MIDI clock sync.
Hopefully this is how it works. I am awaiting a response from ERM.

Quote:
I also compose most of my track in Cirklon and don't move around in the DAW. Once I get the arrangement how I want it, I print audio from all the parts into the DAW. That is where the sync clock comes in, since it puts everything on the grid and allows me to keep working and finish the song in the DAW. Many times at this point, I am done with the sequencer and am just adding live playing parts. If I decide I need to sequence a few more things to punch in, the clock ensures that the punches are in time with the rest of the audio.
In this scenario I would record audio in the DAW with the hardware sequencer slaved, so I have flexibility to edit/compose until the last minute.
Essentially this is the workflow method I have described. I can monitor my MIDI sound modules outputs with low latency through my MOTU audio I/O as a digital mixer.

Quote:
Anyway, that's how I use it ( I had a USAMO box until this week)
Old 6 days ago
  #16
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I think you should be good to go. The thing is that each setup is so personal, that I could tell you it is working for me, and you could be tearing your hair out. That's what sucks. That is why I keep it as simple as possible and send the sync to one device which is my master controller for everything. It sounds like you will figure it out.

I am about to jump into the rabbit hole when my ERM arrives and I have to set it up. I think it should be fine though. For now, while I'm writing, I have Bitwig slaved to my Cirklon. I love this setup a lot. The only reason I don't do it full time is because the jitter when recording audio into the DAW pops up and ruins the tightness of everything I sequenced.
Old 6 days ago
  #17
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I am thinking of getting an ERM multi clock. If I want to sync my MPC5000 and Motif XF together I need an external clock as both the MPC5000 and Motif XF are inconsistent with the MIDI clock start time they generate when acting as MIDI clock master. The sync delay of the slave when starting from the master is inconsistent. Various degrees of flam'ing or echo.

I have read the Multi-clock manual and it just basically generates a stable MIDI clock. It can only forward 'Song Position Pointer' messages it receives in the MIDI in port or the USB MIDI port.

I would need the Multi-clock to receive and forward the transport controls MMC messages and SPP sent from my MPC5000 or Motif XF. Otherwise how could I navigate a song. I would have to start from the beginning every time.
I don't want to have to start the sequencers from the Multi-clock. So I would want 'play', 'stop' and 'continue' triggered from the MPC transport.

Why does no-one ever talk about this basic functionality?
Why are there no youtube videos demonstrating basic multiple hardware sequencer use with these MIDI clock generators?

I am more confident these MIDI clock generators forward SPP from a DAW.
I just want to hear from someone who is using it DAWless.
What is the workflow for gods sake?

All there is are videos showing someone starting it and all the bloops and bleeps are in time.

What about play, stop, locate to specific bar.

I have managed to record to both my MPC5000 and Motif XF with DP as MIDI beat clock master. I press the 'record' button on either hardware sequencer and then press 'play' on DP. It usually works and the slaves stay in sync and record.

Somebody please enlighten me to the basic functions of these expensive MIDI clock generators, transport, SPP etc.
Thanks.

PS, these MIDI clock generators are useless if you want to slave sequencers to a stand alone digital audio recorder or tape and want SPP.
They can't encode SPP. Only a tempo pulse. For MIDI clock and SPP to an audio track you need 'Smart FSK'.
Old 5 days ago
  #18
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oldgearguy's Avatar
 

I use an E-RM multiclock with multiple sequencers. However, you have to nominate one sequencer as the master for SPP, etc. I use the E-Rm to start/stop all devices, but obviously a master clock does not know about (or care) about songs and locations in songs.

So - you have to pick one sequencer as the master and feed the output of it into the E-RM (or other master clock) and use that sequencer to send SPP, program changes, etc to all other devices. Otherwise you have multiple step process every time to record: Press start on E-RM, record what you want. Press Stop. Go around to all sequencers and 'rewind' back to the beginning, arm recording, change patches, etc and then press Start again.

It is almost impossible to set up a complex studio with multiple hardware sequencers and clocking and be able to start/stop/locate from multiple devices.

One unit always has to be the master.
Old 5 days ago
  #19
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Exactly. DAWless, you need a master sequencer.
Old 5 days ago
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgearguy View Post
I use an E-RM multiclock with multiple sequencers. However, you have to nominate one sequencer as the master for SPP, etc. I use the E-Rm to start/stop all devices, but obviously a master clock does not know about (or care) about songs and locations in songs.
I know the benefits of having one master in a sync scenario. All slaves have a centralised timing source. But why do you assert 'Song Position Pointer' messages have to come from one source?
The Multi-clock is simply forwarding the 'song location' to the slaves. Surely any sequencer capable of sending SPP could do the same job.
The sync system would still be one master clock. I can't see how having transport controls and SPP coming from different sequencers would be problematic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgearguy View Post
So - you have to pick one sequencer as the master and feed the output of it into the E-RM (or other master clock) and use that sequencer to send SPP, program changes, etc to all other devices.
Why not have multiple sequencers set up to send transport control and SPP to the Multi-clock? My understanding is that any SPP received by the Multi-clock SPP can be forwarded to all slaves. The Multi-clock only has one DIN MIDI input or the USB MIDI port. You would need to merge sequencer outputs to the Multi-clock MIDI in.
I assume the Multi-clock filters out received MIDI clock and lets the SPP through. My MPC5000 won't send SPP out unless it is set to also transmit MIDI clock. So if it was feeding the Multi-clock the Multi-clock would need to filter out the MIDI clock from the MPC and let the SPP pass. I have emailed ERM asking this very question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgearguy View Post
Otherwise you have multiple step process every time to record: Press start on E-RM, record what you want. Press Stop. Go around to all sequencers and 'rewind' back to the beginning, arm recording, change patches, etc and then press Start again.
Are you sure? Even my FSK sync box when started from the beginning of the audio track it is striped to, causes the MPC5000 and Motif to start from the beginning of their songs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgearguy View Post
It is almost impossible to set up a complex studio with multiple hardware sequencers and clocking and be able to start/stop/locate from multiple devices.
Have you tried? I think this will be a good challenge/experiment. I lean more to the idea that transport and SPP location messages can come from anywhere. The clock is the factor that benefits from being the only clock source.

One unit always has to be the master.[/QUOTE]
That is common advise for the master sync clock. Not so sure it has to be the same for transport and 'song position pointer' messages.
Old 5 days ago
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
Exactly. DAWless, you need a master sequencer.
Methlab, your previous use of the description of using one 'master sequencer' in this thread was having all MIDI notes coming from one sequencer. You were not using the MIDI clock generator to sync multiple sequencers.

Oldgearguy is syncing multiple sequencers. He was referring to using one sequencer as the transport and SPP source.
Old 5 days ago
  #22
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Can the ERM Multi-clock transport be controlled by MMC?
'play from start', 'stop', 'continue'.
I want to control this from my MPC transport and not have to play and stop from the Multi-clock.
Old 5 days ago
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
Methlab, your previous use of the description of using one 'master sequencer' in this thread was having all MIDI notes coming from one sequencer. You were not using the MIDI clock generator to sync multiple sequencers.

Oldgearguy is syncing multiple sequencers. He was referring to using one sequencer as the transport and SPP source.
I know that, and that's exactly what I would do in his situation.

The main takeaway is you should pick one sequencer as your source.

For me, I just use Cirklon as such. Once I print to the DAW, I use the ERM to get everything on the grid and for overdubs. So far it is working quite well.

Every one's workflow is going to be a bit different, so at some point you ill just need to try one for yourself.
Old 5 days ago
  #24
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The phenomenon I don't understand is that when I switch my MPC to not send MMC commands. The Motif still follows play from start, stop and continue. It also follows SPP.
Maybe play from start, stop and continue are unnecessary when being a MIDI beat clock master. As long as the MIDI beat clock is sent the slave seems to play from start, stop and continue even with MMC transmission turned off on the master (MPC in this case).
Old 5 days ago
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
I know that, and that's exactly what I would do in his situation.

The main takeaway is you should pick one sequencer as your source.
Source of what specifically?
Me and oldgearguy and others are using multiple sequencers. I want my drums on the MPC and all non drum MIDI parts on the Motif. Then I can independently switch drum patterns on the MPC while all the instruments are playing linearly on the Motif. I just need the two sequencers in sync.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
For me, I just use Cirklon as such. Once I print to the DAW, I use the ERM to get everything on the grid and for overdubs. So far it is working quite well.

Every one's workflow is going to be a bit different, so at some point you ill just need to try one for yourself.
I'm hoping that by reading the manual, emailing the maker of the multi-clock and communicating clearly and effectively with end users I can confirm it's functions and limitations without having to spend a 1000 dollars to try one out.
Old 5 days ago
  #26
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Slave one sequencer to your other one. As long as the sequencer is good, it will start and stop through your master. I literally did a similar thing with a sync box into a Cirklon into an Elektron. It worked well. The only limitation was the Elektron Digitakt sequencer has a bit of a lag, but that’s on Elektron, not the sync box.

Honestly, what you want to do sounds very doable to me if you use the MPC as your master clock (send the MPC the sync clock output).
Old 5 days ago
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
Slave one sequencer to your other one. As long as the sequencer is good, it will start and stop through your master. I literally did a similar thing with a sync box into a Cirklon into an Elektron. It worked well. The only limitation was the Elektron Digitakt sequencer has a bit of a lag, but that’s on Elektron, not the sync box.

Honestly, what you want to do sounds very doable to me if you use the MPC as your master clock (send the MPC the sync clock output).
Please refer to the first paragraph of my post #11 .
I detail why this is unusable.
Old 5 days ago
  #28
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If my MPC or Motif generated a consistent MIDI clock in time with it's own clock AND I had a 'shift early' function for the MIDI clock slave (like the MPC60II does, up to 20ms) then I wouldn't need one of these MIDI clock generators for a hardware only DAWless MIDI composition setup.
Akai and Yamaha and any other manufacturer need to fix these unusable MIDI clock generators in their sequencers.
Old 5 days ago
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
Please refer to the first paragraph of my post #11 .
I detail why this is unusable.
It's been mentioned before but I think a Squarp Pyramid may benefit you more in a DAWless setup.

You stated that you got great sync using your Digital Performer DAW. I'd start by substituting that with a Cirklon or Squarp. There is a reason why tons of DAWless producers use these.

You could then use the Squarp to send start/stop and control where you are in the song. See how that works and then get a sync box if you need.

Going DAWless can be a huge PITA if you are super finicky about timing. You are basically going for sample accurate timing, which is really difficult, even with a DAW. The fact that you got there with no sync box already in your DAW makes me envious.

I am real happy with the ERM so far, but I just got it. It is recording nice and tight though, no jitter.
Old 5 days ago
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
It's been mentioned before but I think a Squarp Pyramid may benefit you more in a DAWless setup.

You stated that you got great sync using your Digital Performer DAW. I'd start by substituting that with a Cirklon or Squarp. There is a reason why tons of DAWless producers use these.

You could then use the Squarp to send start/stop and control where you are in the song. See how that works and then get a sync box if you need.
A whole other sequencer to send transport controls and SPP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
Going DAWless can be a huge PITA if you are super finicky about timing. You are basically going for sample accurate timing, which is really difficult, even with a DAW. The fact that you got there with no sync box already in your DAW makes me envious.
Super finicky? Maybe I didn't explain my sync results clearly enough.
With the HD24XR as MTC master to either MPC or Motif I get major drift across multiple takes. Slap back echo difference in sync. Completely unusable for rhythmic music or any music really.
'You are basically going for sample accurate timing'
I don't think I can even hear sample accurate timing.
The MPC and Motif were close but no cigar. The fact that I have to start the MPC or Motif (depending on which is MIDI beat clock master) a handful of times to get the closest sync possible, which is still flam'ing by (2) ticks at 480PPQN makes music making a chore. Unacceptable.
Even if the sync generated by the master was consistent with a (2) tick latency of the slave, (2) ticks apart is a flam'ing sound. Try it yourself. Calculate (2) ticks of 480PPQN at 70 BPM and you will hear what I am hearing. Try an 8th note hi-hat pattern layered with another (2) 480PPQN ticks apart.
60 seconds divided by 70 equals 0.85714... That is the duration of one quarter note at 70 BPM in seconds. Divide by 480PPQN equals 0.001765714.. That is the duration of one tick of a 480PPQN sequencer at 70 BPM. Times by two equals 0.0035714... That is the duration in seconds of the best latency I get with the MPC slaved to the Motif. So 3.5 milliseconds. If I'm not mistaken. 1000ms to a second.
The ERM website states a sample is 20 microseconds at 48khz. 1000000 microseconds to a second. 1000 microseconds to a millisecond.
My MIDI clock latency is 3500 microseconds, divide by 20 to get the number of samples latency I have equals 175 samples.
I don't think I'm asking for sample accurate. If I could get two hi-hats with sharp attacks and short decays sounding together by ear, I think I would find that perfectly acceptable for making music.
I do confess to being a stickler for musical timing. I am into groove, human groove but also accurate groove. Drum rhythms for dancing to. We should decide the timing of our music.
If I quantised anything on my Motif it would all be 3.5ms late to the MPC grid and not in time at all.
Complete train wreck!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methlab View Post
I am real happy with the ERM so far, but I just got it. It is recording nice and tight though, no jitter.
I hope people using multiple sequencers can report their workflow regarding, transport controls, song location, recording on the sequencers while slaved etc.
That is where the rubber meets the road for me.
Basic music making actions with sequencers.
All I see are youtube videos with a few minutes of tightly timed bleeps and bloops. No real world song navigation or recording or transport control.
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