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Dave Smith Pioneer DJ Collaboration: Toraiz SP-16
Old 31st August 2016
  #871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reverberation View Post
I was just heading out the door to get me a Toraiz but while brushing my teeth, I read that it ONLY SUPPORTS 32 SECONDS OF SAMPLE LENGTH!
Sorry for the capslock, but for me personally it's "useless" then. I was planning on DJ'ing with it...
Was it ever advertized as a DJ'ing device? I haven't read the specs that closely, but judging from the picture it lacks essential DJ tools like dedicated tempo controls for at least 2 tracks, dedicated gain/volume controls for the same tracks, cueing function so you can listen one track while playing another etc.

For the same money, you could buy either 2x XDJ700 + a cheap mixer like Allen&Heath Xone 23 or alternatively an all-in one system Denon MCX8000 or one of the Pioneer's alternatives.
Old 31st August 2016
  #872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barfunkel View Post
Was it ever advertized as a DJ'ing device? I haven't read the specs that closely, but judging from the picture it lacks essential DJ tools like dedicated tempo controls for at least 2 tracks, dedicated gain/volume controls for the same tracks, cueing function so you can listen one track while playing another etc.

For the same money, you could buy either 2x XDJ700 + a cheap mixer like Allen&Heath Xone 23 or alternatively an all-in one system Denon MCX8000 or one of the Pioneer's alternatives.
Well, this Pioneer guy in one of the first youtube clips showing Toraiz said it's like having 16 CDJ's.
That makes you assume you can play tracks with it.
Old 31st August 2016
  #873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatifictatter View Post
Not seeing much special about the Toraiz yet compared to the octatrack except those outputs and 16 tracks over 8. Admittedly those are quite significant.
eh... 16 tracks with 16 samples? lol

the OT has 8 tracks but has the ability to change the sample at each step within a sequence with sample locks... so though its "8 tracks" you have way more flexibilty within its 8 tracks than the toraiz's 16

i won't even mention sample chains... i can have more samples on 1 track of the OT than you can have across the whole 16 of the toraiz

and the OT has 8 midi tracks...

so....
Old 31st August 2016
  #874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old hydro law View Post
eh... 16 tracks with 16 samples? lol

the OT has 8 tracks but has the ability to change the sample at each step within a sequence with sample locks... so though its "8 tracks" you have way more flexibilty within its 8 tracks than the toraiz's 16
Toraiz does that too.
Old 31st August 2016
  #875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old hydro law View Post
eh... 16 tracks with 16 samples? lol

the OT has 8 tracks but has the ability to change the sample at each step within a sequence with sample locks... so though its "8 tracks" you have way more flexibilty within its 8 tracks than the toraiz's 16

i won't even mention sample chains... i can have more samples on 1 track of the OT than you can have across the whole 16 of the toraiz

and the OT has 8 midi tracks...

so....
Dude you're preaching to the choir, wouldn't touch the Toraiz over my OT 16 track polyphony is an undeniable 'plus' for toraiz tho...
Old 31st August 2016
  #876
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatifictatter View Post
Yeah I agree, potentially the interface is great. And the outputs definitely beat the Octatrack in that area. But right now I don't see much utilisation of the interface in the OS.
Agreed, it will be tragic if they don't stick to the update plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beatifictatter View Post
. Not seeing much special about the Toraiz yet compared to the octatrack except those outputs and 16 tracks over 8. Admittedly those are quite significant. But if it's generally just a case of being able to browse/name files faster then overall I'm kind of 'meh' about it. I'd rather have a slightly less fluid workflow + infinitely deeper possibilities... Each to their own tho, I can see how it could be great for a lot of people.
I'm in a different boat, I got a computer, Maschine, Bitwig... for depth. I want to feel/know I'm playing an instrument and I need strings, keys, or MPC style pads to feel that way. Octatrack wouldn't cut it for me; I'm not certain Toraiz will either, I returned the Livid Base II because the pads didn't cut it.

The promise I see with the touch screen is an interface with endless update possibilities. From reports, it NEEDS an undue button and with a touch screen that button is a possible update even after release. For that example I would rather press shift and one of the pads for "undo" though.
Old 31st August 2016
  #877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esla View Post
Toraiz does that too.
with slices?? lol

thats why u deleted the chains part - correct?
Old 31st August 2016
  #878
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I got a chance yesterday to make a few beats and I was both surprised and somewhat disappointed. The work flow is super fast and sampling is easy as a breeze but coming from a mpc and asr x background I just feel like the sampling falls short. 32 second sampling limit and you can not fine edit samples at all you pretty much have start and end for sample editing and you cannot adjust the value of the sample like on an mpc which makes it hard to for example fine edit a loop perfectly. Also unless I'm wrong your also limited to just 16 samples per scene which is somewhat limited as I'm used to having up to 8 banks of samples like on the mpc software, also there is no undo feature and the effects are almost as worthless as they were on the beat thing. At least you can assign long samples to a pad and then slice into 16 parts but in 2016- 17 I think they can do better then this. Also I have run into what appears to be a bug where the sequencer won't loop correct but skip. Did not test any of the midi settings yet and over all I was able to sample and complete 2 full sample tracks.it seems to be a cool machine as long as you don't enter with a mpc or maschine mindset.so either way it's back to my mpc touch and 5000 peace.
Old 31st August 2016
  #879
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esla View Post
I'm in a different boat, I got a computer, Maschine, Bitwig... for depth. I want to feel/know I'm playing an instrument and I need strings, keys, or MPC style pads to feel that way. Octatrack wouldn't cut it for me; I'm not certain Toraiz will either, I returned the Livid Base II because the pads didn't cut it.
Have you ever tried an actual MPC?
Because it sounds like that's what you're after...
Old 31st August 2016
  #880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble2222 View Post
you can not fine edit samples at all you pretty much have start and end for sample editing and you cannot adjust the value of the sample like on an mpc which makes it hard to for example fine edit a loop perfectly
Thanks for the insight.

Can you explain further here? From what I could see in the videos the start/end point editing looked pretty accurate for making a good loop?!

Thank you!!
Old 31st August 2016
  #881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomaz View Post
Thanks for the insight.

Can you explain further here? From what I could see in the videos the start/end point editing looked pretty accurate for making a good loop?!

Thank you!!
Sorry what I'm referring to is what's called fine chop on older Mpc where you can hold shift and use the cursor to select the region number and edit in lesser values. But yes you can loop on it I just find it to be not as precise as maschine and the mpc,but maybe I'm wrong and just overlooking something. Peace
Old 31st August 2016
  #882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble2222 View Post
Sorry what I'm referring to is what's called fine chop on older Mpc where you can hold shift and use the cursor to select the region number and edit in lesser values. But yes you can loop on it I just find it to be not as precise as maschine and the mpc,but maybe I'm wrong and just overlooking something. Peace
Thanks!!
Old 31st August 2016
  #883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emos Eno View Post
Have you ever tried an actual MPC?
Because it sounds like that's what you're after...
I have gotten pretty close. The screens and 16bit sampling on the models I nearly bought were turnoffs. Also, lack of warrantee. If only MPC or Maschine would come out with a standalone....
Old 31st August 2016
  #884
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As posted before in this thread, Slice Edit is coming in the next update according to the roadmap posted here earlier. Hopefully soon. As far as stand-alone Maschine, I would gather that is 100% never going to happen as that goes against NI's total company philosophy of everything ITB. And Akai has publicly been developing a full blown DAW with MPC while their stand-alone prototype seemingly dropped off the planet. My guess 90% against Akai coming out with a stand-alone anytime soon.

My take on the situation is that it took a company out of the blue like Pioneer DJ to actually produce something like this in 2016. The established manufacturers abandoned the pro hardware sampler years ago. Roland might come out with an Aira unit soon, but I would expect it to be on the low end, 2 outputs (perhaps 4), no actual external sampling, no edit screen, and 8 pads at most. Akai? Nope. They are now a totally different company than the one that made the MPC's of the 80's and 90's. Boutique companies might make a go at it but at price points that approach eye-watering just to cover costs. It seems the $1499 price point may be as high as anyone can go these days for a pro sampler, and Pioneer DJ did aloe of research on it. Just my take.

Last edited by rockreid; 31st August 2016 at 10:32 PM..
Old 31st August 2016
  #885
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I almost feel like these companies don't want the hassle of paying programmers to create complex firmware for hardware units. With software they are at least developing updates that will continue beyond the computer hardware. It took many updates before AKAI got the MPC 4000 hardware right and there are still bugs in the system. Users wanted an MPC 5000 version 3.0 to fix some issues and it took forever for AKAI to get to a version 2.0 to fix major issues. Elektron have been good about programming complexity into their hardware boxes but they are limited to 64 steps.

I almost feel like the lack of complexity from so many of today's boxes is not market driven, but that it's fricken' hard to program a complex stable OS. Most companies just don't want to deal with it unless they are writing computer software because they know we'll buy their boxes anyway for the few cool features they do have.
Old 31st August 2016
  #886
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Actually there is no excuse for the lack of detail that are put into these products. It's 2016 and hardware company's just can't seem to put together machines that rival older samplers from decades ago. They seem to always leave out some key feature that can be found on older legacy machines. My toraiz is missing features that are found on my old as hell mpc 3000 and asr x. But I know that being an early adopter can put one patience to the test. I look forward to the next update peace.
Old 31st August 2016
  #887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble2222 View Post
Actually there is no excuse for the lack of detail that are put into these products. It's 2016 and hardware company's just can't seem to put together machines that rival older samplers from decades ago. They seem to always leave out some key feature that can be found on older legacy machines. My toraiz is missing features that are found on my old as hell mpc 3000 and asr x. But I know that being an early adopter can put one patience to the test. I look forward to the next update peace.
Yeah.. I'm not excusing them, just explaining that they are lazy versus the argument that somehow they are doing this because people want simpler hardware. I hate that they won't make maschines like we had 15-20 years ago.

I'm skeptical of updates. If the pioneer programmers took half a year and couldn't even implement all the effects by the release date, I doubt they are going to be jumping at the bit to program anything more than the bare promised minimum. That it took them so long to program something so simple tells me everything I need to know about their programming team. Yet still I have this inexplicable urge to buy one and use it for what it is.
Old 31st August 2016
  #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioone View Post
Yeah.. I'm not excusing them, just explaining that they are lazy versus the argument that somehow they are doing this because people want simpler hardware. I hate that they won't make maschines like we had 15-20 years ago.

I'm skeptical of updates. If the pioneer programmers took half a year and couldn't even implement all the effects by the release date, I doubt they are going to be jumping at the bit to program anything more than the bare promised minimum. That it took them so long to program something so simple tells me everything I need to know about their programming team. Yet still I have this inexplicable urge to buy one and use it for what it is.
I agree 1 hundred percent.
Old 31st August 2016
  #889
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fwet's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioone View Post
I almost feel like these companies don't want the hassle of paying programmers to create complex firmware for hardware units. With software they are at least developing updates that will continue beyond the computer hardware. It took many updates before AKAI got the MPC 4000 hardware right and there are still bugs in the system. Users wanted an MPC 5000 version 3.0 to fix some issues and it took forever for AKAI to get to a version 2.0 to fix major issues. Elektron have been good about programming complexity into their hardware boxes but they are limited to 64 steps.

I almost feel like the lack of complexity from so many of today's boxes is not market driven, but that it's fricken' hard to program a complex stable OS. Most companies just don't want to deal with it unless they are writing computer software because they know we'll buy their boxes anyway for the few cool features they do have.
What bugs in the 4000 exactly?
Old 31st August 2016
  #890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioone View Post
Yeah.. I'm not excusing them, just explaining that they are lazy versus the argument that somehow they are doing this because people want simpler hardware. I hate that they won't make maschines like we had 15-20 years ago.

I'm skeptical of updates. If the pioneer programmers took half a year and couldn't even implement all the effects by the release date, I doubt they are going to be jumping at the bit to program anything more than the bare promised minimum. That it took them so long to program something so simple tells me everything I need to know about their programming team. Yet still I have this inexplicable urge to buy one and use it for what it is.
6 months is no time at all, I guess they have been working on it far longer than that.
Old 31st August 2016
  #891
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fwet View Post
What bugs in the 4000 exactly?
I only use my 4000 at 44.1 khz but I've heard people have some issues at 96 khz. Every once in awhile I experience something a bit random which might just be user error, like an extra random note in a sequence out of nowhere, again maybe user error.

My data wheel is probably too old as sometimes I get small issues with it bouncing back a value after I've already let go of it.

If you let a sequence play and you go into program mode the sound gets messed with in really weird way, not a bug necessarily, but what's the point of letting the sequence play on if it's sound is completely mangled.

All in all I love my 4000 and wish someone would make a new version.
Old 31st August 2016
  #892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioone View Post
I only use my 4000 at 44.1 khz but I've heard people have some issues at 96 khz. Every once in awhile I experience something a bit random which might just be user error, like an extra random note in a sequence out of nowhere, again maybe user error.

My data wheel is probably too old as sometimes I get small issues with it bouncing back a value after I've already let go of it.

If you let a sequence play and you go into program mode the sound gets messed with in really weird way, not a bug necessarily, but what's the point of letting the sequence play on if it's sound is completely mangled.

All in all I love my 4000 and wish someone would make a new version.
Ive never experienced any of those things. Hmmm tough luck maybe? You need a new encoder for your data wheel.
Old 1st September 2016
  #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fwet View Post
Ive never experienced any of those things. Hmmm tough luck maybe? You need a new encoder for your data wheel.
I scored it fully maxed out for $300 on ebay... so not so tough luck :-)
Old 1st September 2016
  #894
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockreid View Post
As posted before in this thread, Slice Edit is coming in the next update according to the roadmap posted here earlier. Hopefully soon. As far as stand-alone Maschine, I would gather that is 100% never going to happen as that goes against NI's total company philosophy of everything ITB. And Akai has publicly been developing a full blown DAW with MPC while their stand-alone prototype seemingly dropped off the planet. My guess 90% against Akai coming out with a stand-alone anytime soon.

My take on the situation is that it took a company out of the blue like Pioneer DJ to actually produce something like this in 2016. The established manufacturers abandoned the pro hardware sampler years ago. Roland might come out with an Aira unit soon, but I would expect it to be on the low end, 2 outputs (perhaps 4), no actual external sampling, no edit screen, and 8 pads at most. Akai? Nope. They are now a totally different company than the one that made the MPC's of the 80's and 90's. Boutique companies might make a go at it but at price points that approach eye-watering just to cover costs. It seems the $1499 price point may be as high as anyone can go these days for a pro sampler, and Pioneer DJ did aloe of research on it. Just my take.
My thoughts exactly.
Old 1st September 2016
  #895
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Been out a few days now and not one video or example of its uniqueness on the internet.Kinda odd.....Great chance for someone with talent to get some exposure " ]
Old 1st September 2016
  #896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs View Post
Been out a few days now and not one video or example of its uniqueness on the internet.Kinda odd.....Great chance for someone with talent to get some exposure " ]
doesn't really have any 'uniqueness' besides adding a touchscreen to basic features already existing on other boxes? Not sure what you're expecting someone to be able to demonstrate on it?
Old 1st September 2016
  #897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs View Post
Been out a few days now and not one video or example of its uniqueness on the internet.Kinda odd.....Great chance for someone with talent to get some exposure " ]
Well to it's defence, it's only been out for a short moment. Musical instruments (electronic devices included) take time to learn, the good stuff usually happens a long time after the initial release.

I have a strong dislike towards the kind of of "Unboxing and first 15 minutes with a piece of gear" type of videos. They won't tell you anything useful about what a skilled operator can create with that gear. It's just some random preset surfing and turning a few knobs.


Give it time, if it has potential, it will materialize.
Old 1st September 2016
  #898
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatifictatter View Post
doesn't really have any 'uniqueness' besides adding a touchscreen to basic features already existing on other boxes? Not sure what you're expecting someone to be able to demonstrate on it?
Every machine has a 'uniqueness'...just takes an 'artist' to bring it out.

Quote:
Well to it's defence, it's only been out for a short moment. Musical instruments (electronic devices included) take time to learn, the good stuff usually happens a long time after the initial release.
yep
Old 1st September 2016
  #899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goa-Dubs View Post
Every machine has a 'uniqueness'...just takes an 'artist' to bring it out.


yep
Yeah maybe I'm being harsh. I'm sure there'll be a couple of tricks dug out of it. Touch fader might have some interesting potential that's slightly different to OT scene fader, as you can 'jump' to parameter values by tapping different parts of the fader on pioneer.

Struggling to find anything unique from the spec/manual for now tho, which the other guy posting said he was hoping to see in a video. To be honest I don't really care if it does anything unique. If it just did a little more of what MPC and Octatrack do along with some Roland SP style fx that'd be enough for me...
Old 1st September 2016
  #900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatifictatter View Post
Yeah maybe I'm being harsh. I'm sure there'll be a couple of tricks dug out of it. Touch fader might have some interesting potential that's slightly different to OT scene fader, as you can 'jump' to parameter values by tapping different parts of the fader on pioneer.

Struggling to find anything unique from the spec/manual for now tho, which the other guy posting said he was hoping to see in a video. To be honest I don't really care if it does anything unique. If it just did a little more of what MPC and Octatrack do along with some Roland SP style fx that'd be enough for me...
It does seem a bit stiff.Unlike the octotrack which is all angles and curves and character.But the OT was too dam complicated for me.
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