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Dave Smith Pioneer DJ Collaboration: Toraiz SP-16
Old 24th April 2019
  #3841
Gear Maniac
i doubt there will be any further development at this point. Pioneer has moved on.
Old 25th April 2019
  #3842
Lives for gear
 
DJRAZZ's Avatar
 

Yep. I think the Squid sequencer should have included at least some of the SP-16 sampling features. Now that would have been something.
Old 26th April 2019
  #3843
Here for the gear
 

Why not combine all three to make one super Toraiz.

I don’t need Squid.
Old 26th April 2019
  #3844
Lives for gear
We don't need another 'eer.....oh
Old 26th April 2019
  #3845
@ Low hiss is building what we all want and need.
Old 26th April 2019
  #3846
Lives for gear
 
Cornish1999's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by earwolf View Post
We don't need another 'eer.....oh
But what about knowing the way home Tina?
Old 26th April 2019
  #3847
Gear Nut
 

There's still hope. This is from 4/6:

Dave Smith Pioneer DJ Collaboration: Toraiz SP-16-screen-shot-2019-04-26-2.25.30-pm.png
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Dave Smith Pioneer DJ Collaboration: Toraiz SP-16-screen-shot-2019-04-26-2.25.30-pm.png  
Old 27th April 2019
  #3848
Gear Maniac
I'm hoping for a minor bug fix release, but I'm not too optimistic.

I find the SP-16 great as a stand alone unit. My main issue is MIDI sync. Not only does MIDI song position not work, but the SP-16 is simply unable to stay in sync with my laptop or my other gear. It is the only gear I have that fails at this task. It has both way too much latency and it drifts over time, meaning it is basically impossible to use it for production as intended. In my case, I have to manually recreate all the patterns on my laptop before recording since I can't get the SP-16 to stay in sync. I do trigger the SP-16 over MIDI, I just can't use the unit's internal sequencer for production.

I do not use time stretch or even onboard effects. It still drifts out of sync. I'm using it as a MIDI slave, since my laptop needs to be MIDI master for everything to work.
Old 27th April 2019
  #3849
Gear Nut
 
kuroichi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimsnarf View Post
I'm hoping for a minor bug fix release, but I'm not too optimistic.

I find the SP-16 great as a stand alone unit. My main issue is MIDI sync. Not only does MIDI song position not work, but the SP-16 is simply unable to stay in sync with my laptop or my other gear. It is the only gear I have that fails at this task. It has both way too much latency and it drifts over time, meaning it is basically impossible to use it for production as intended. In my case, I have to manually recreate all the patterns on my laptop before recording since I can't get the SP-16 to stay in sync. I do trigger the SP-16 over MIDI, I just can't use the unit's internal sequencer for production.

I do not use time stretch or even onboard effects. It still drifts out of sync. I'm using it as a MIDI slave, since my laptop needs to be MIDI master for everything to work.
You aren't alone, what you describe above is pretty much my experience. I have run the machine completely independently and still found that it gradually drifts more and more over time. Playing a full set of sequences using the arranger or just a single pattern looping gave the same results, whether synced to incoming midi, or running freely.

Problem is, if I use an external sequencer then I can't rely on any of the internal parameter locking features as many don't respond to CC messages either...
Old 27th April 2019
  #3850
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimsnarf View Post
I'm hoping for a minor bug fix release, but I'm not too optimistic.

I find the SP-16 great as a stand alone unit. My main issue is MIDI sync. Not only does MIDI song position not work, but the SP-16 is simply unable to stay in sync with my laptop or my other gear. It is the only gear I have that fails at this task. It has both way too much latency and it drifts over time, meaning it is basically impossible to use it for production as intended. In my case, I have to manually recreate all the patterns on my laptop before recording since I can't get the SP-16 to stay in sync. I do trigger the SP-16 over MIDI, I just can't use the unit's internal sequencer for production.

I do not use time stretch or even onboard effects. It still drifts out of sync. I'm using it as a MIDI slave, since my laptop needs to be MIDI master for everything to work.
Huh mine syncs pretty solid on a macbook pro 2013 running ableton. some slight drift maybe but definately not unusable..at least for me. Maybe if you had drum hits from 2 devices they might flam a bit now and then. I am using a MOTU midi timepiece and everything is on its own out midi out.

A working song position or ability to start the arrangement from any point would be great. Gets a little annoying hand playing your arrangement from spots in the middle.

One thing i have noticed is when recording is if instead of slave i just set the bpm on the device, it can be tighter to the BPM than it is to slave...might just have to adjust start point in ableton and put one warp marker on the last beat and its spot on.

I also do this with other devices...like my prophet 6. If I sync it and use a delay or LFO there can be parts where it catches up/slows down and makes artifacts I dont like...but if I just set the BPM to the song its usually solid.
Old 27th April 2019
  #3851
Gear Maniac
Yeah, I also use a Macbook Pro 2013 running Ableton Live. I have also tried to sync using Renoise.

If I record a continuous arrangement from the SP-16 the beat is noticeably out of sync after a couple of minutes. If I zoom in on the recorded waveform in Ableton, I can easily see both that the beat starts out of sync (offset due to latency) and that over time it drifts more and more out of sync. I tried to set a manual sync offset but could't find the right value. The drift makes it very impractical to record in one go, since I then have to manually clean up the increasingly out of sync beats. I also tried to record separate patterns, but this also quickly becomes unmanageable with both latency and drift issues. In the end, the only solution I could find was triggering all notes from the DAW instead.

I did try setting the SP-16 as master, but that made Ableton act weird and skip sounds here and there. Very hard to work with. I also tried setting the BPM on the SP-16, without sync, but I couldn't get the latency right. This was especially annoying when recording patterns separately, or re-recording certain parts, since they all them become offset by different amounts. Triggering the notes from the DAW instead was rock solid and on the beat all the time.

I have not tried a separate MIDI clock hardware device. Up until the SP-16 I have not had the need. But if that could solve the issue, I'm willing to try. However, so far things point toward the issue being the SP-16, not MIDI sync in general.
Old 27th April 2019
  #3852
Lives for gear
 
Eigenwert's Avatar
The SP-16 stays in sync perfectly and has no drift. It must be your other gear delivering a sloppy clock.
Old 28th April 2019
  #3853
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
The SP-16 stays in sync perfectly and has no drift. It must be your other gear delivering a sloppy clock.
It is of course possible that all my other gear is faulty, and that the SP-16 is the only piece working correctly. However, I find that improbable.

I have tried to sync with the SP-16 as slave both over USB (from multiple DAWs) and over MIDI DIN (from multiple hardware units, including an MX-1). In all cases, it always drifts, even when it displays a solid BPM on the MIDI clock.

With more testing, however, I discovered that the SP-16 only drifts when it changes patterns (in arrangement mode or manually). If I loop just one pattern it never drifts, so it should be possible to record each pattern one-by-one by starting it separately, even if inconvenient.

However, this adds more evidence to the theory that the SP-16 is the problem, since it apparently is just fine with an external clock when not changing patterns. I believe each pattern change adds a short time shift that becomes quite noticeable over time.

When you say the SP-16 stays in perfect sync and has no drift, have you tried using it in arrangement mode or when changing patterns over a couple of minutes?
Old 29th April 2019
  #3854
Lives for gear
 

Yeah its solid in arrangement mode to. There is drift but its not noticeable to my ear. I see it in ableton but I hand play all my midi parts and there a bit off the grid too.

Almost anything I record needs the “set 1.1 marker here” updated to first transient in ableton. Every drum machine Ive ever used or had. Even recording midi from ableton to hardware and back in there is some delay. Enough to need to move it? Not always. You gotta zoom in pretty close to see it. I only even bother because I am setting loops later in project and want those to be seamless...and sometimes they are just setting the loop points on the appropriate bars without doing anything else.

Sounds like you are experiencing noticeable sync loss...I never had with the SP16. But I do kinda think that manually cleaning up beats in ableton is just the nature of the beast.

What other drum machines have you used that didnt have this problem? Much less noticavle with synths given the nature of the parts played.
Old 30th April 2019
  #3855
Lives for gear
 

How do you keep a fool in suspense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by abrokenframe View Post
There's still hope. This is from 4/6:

Old 30th April 2019
  #3856
Gear Nut
 
SawneyBean's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by abrokenframe View Post
There's still hope. This is from 4/6:

They've been spouting this same reply for the last 2 years for the AS-1. If the guys that are working on it are taking this long for a few simple bugs, the lot of them needs to be fired!
Old 30th April 2019
  #3857
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SawneyBean View Post
They've been spouting this same reply for the last 2 years for the AS-1. If the guys that are working on it are taking this long for a few simple bugs, the lot of them needs to be fired!
They might be taking fffffooooorrreevvveeer, but I feel it's unlikely they would perpetuate the lie that they are actively working on it if they aren't... they'd probably just go silent on the issue or give some vague "no updates at this time" response.
Old 30th April 2019
  #3858
Lives for gear
 
Tnsl's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SawneyBean View Post
They've been spouting this same reply for the last 2 years for the AS-1. If the guys that are working on it are taking this long for a few simple bugs, the lot of them needs to be fired!
Might be an automatic bot replying.
Old 30th April 2019
  #3859
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pisstake View Post
i doubt there will be any further development at this point. Pioneer has moved on.
According to who? You and your doubts?
Old 30th April 2019
  #3860
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by knobsmcgee View Post
According to who? You and your doubts?
Yes. I have spoken, therefore it is now law.
Old 30th April 2019
  #3861
Still looking for answers on the squid. Posted in the squid thread as well, which seems to be dead.

So my question is still not answered. The sequencer on the Toraiz is limited. The sequencer on the Squid is not. Can you, or can you not, control individual samples on the Toraiz, from the squid? Can I setup a kick on track 1 on the Toraiz SP-16 and control that sample, sequence it, etc.... from the squid?

The reason I was intrigued about the Squid is from the promo videos. I thought I could have individual sample tracks (snare, hh, kick) on the Toraiz SP-16 and manipulate them, mangle them, separate track lengths etc.... from the Squid
Old 30th April 2019
  #3862
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_rock View Post
Still looking for answers on the squid. Posted in the squid thread as well, which seems to be dead.

So my question is still not answered. The sequencer on the Toraiz is limited. The sequencer on the Squid is not. Can you, or can you not, control individual samples on the Toraiz, from the squid? Can I setup a kick on track 1 on the Toraiz SP-16 and control that sample, sequence it, etc.... from the squid?
Yes you can, with some limitations. I answered more fully in the SQUID thread.
Old 30th April 2019
  #3863
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctothej123 View Post
Yeah its solid in arrangement mode to. There is drift but its not noticeable to my ear. I see it in ableton but I hand play all my midi parts and there a bit off the grid too.
OK, we have different definitions of "solid" then. Either it drifts or it is solid, in my mind. Hand-playing MIDI parts is different though. Then you get "natural" variations in timing. On the SP16 you get a beat that is increasingly, mechanically out-of-beat over time. It does not sound good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctothej123 View Post
Sounds like you are experiencing noticeable sync loss...I never had with the SP16. But I do kinda think that manually cleaning up beats in ableton is just the nature of the beast.
I started noticing it toward the end of a 4 minute long drum recording as I worked on a tune. The beat sounded better, tighter at the start. I thought it was something with the mix, but then I discovered that it was due to the beat having drifted increasingly out of sync. If you have a long enough session (within reason), with enough pattern changes, it would be impossible not to notice, since the beat would be half a second or more out of sync. I find that unacceptable.

It is clearly not the fault of MIDI. It is the SP-16 internal sequencer that drifts on each pattern change. So even if it supported Ableton Link or something else, I believe it would have the same problem, as it is an internal timing issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctothej123 View Post
Almost anything I record needs the “set 1.1 marker here” updated to first transient in ableton. Every drum machine Ive ever used or had. Even recording midi from ableton to hardware and back in there is some delay. Enough to need to move it? Not always. You gotta zoom in pretty close to see it.
Yeah, as long as the delay/latency is constant, it can simply be offset. Drift, however, can not be offset, but has to be manually cleaned up on each recording, for each pattern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctothej123 View Post
What other drum machines have you used that didnt have this problem?
This is my first external / hardware drum machine. However, I have linked multiple sequencers over MIDI before, without experiencing drift. And again, this can't be an issue with MIDI itself, since it only happens with internal pattern changes on the SP-16, without MIDI being involved in those changes. This is a fault in the SP-16. There is no reason why a pattern change should cause drift when looping the same pattern does not.

In my opinion this is a serious problem for a product that is being marketed as production gear, since the drift makes it very difficult to use for production. It is less of a problem when just jamming along. Unless the jamming session becomes long, then the drift would be very noticeable after a while. Even before that the beat would be perceived as less tight, in a subtle way.
Old 30th April 2019
  #3864
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimsnarf View Post
the beat would be half a second or more out of sync. I find that unacceptable.
Shoot its not doing that for me....I can record an 8 minute arrangement with lots of pattern changes and its just barely off....like less than 128th note...you gotta zoom in real close. More noticable to the eye than to the ear.

Maybe you have a hardware problem of some kind...general consensus seems to be its pretty solid.
Old 30th April 2019
  #3865
Gear Maniac
With the SP-16 set as master, I can play a full 1.5hr live set of 16 songs and over 200 patterns, manually switching patterns and building up the set as I go and I have no issues with the rest of my gear staying synced to the SP and without any noticeable drift. If I try to slave it, it's a no go, no matter what I use for a master clock. This sucks but once again I've figured out a work around and have dealt with the limitation.
Old 2nd May 2019
  #3866
mp3
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimsnarf View Post
In my opinion this is a serious problem for a product that is being marketed as production gear, since the drift makes it very difficult to use for production. It is less of a problem when just jamming along. Unless the jamming session becomes long, then the drift would be very noticeable after a while. Even before that the beat would be perceived as less tight, in a subtle way.
It's an even more serious problem for the DJ booth, where you are more or less required to sync over long periods of time.

I don't deny your claim (and I have kept out of this discussion because I don't really use the SP-16 in a way that would expose this flaw - and I have limited free time so the last thing I wanna do is run tests with that time lol), but taking the DJ's use case into consideration, this is more or less a fatal flaw, if true.

But that begs the question. Why has their DJ userbase not made a huge stink about this? I mean I get the politics and all, but it would seem to me that community would be more inclined than ours to recognize such an issue. And if there is a degree of shared code between their devices, as you theorized elsewhere, then isn't there a chance that means either that this problem is/was present in their other devices, or that the solution is already in-house? Just weird...
Old 2nd May 2019
  #3867
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp3 View Post
But that begs the question. Why has their DJ userbase not made a huge stink about this?
I suspect they use the SP-16 as master and/or use Pro DJ Link, which might not have this issue. Or the issue might be dependent on the setup or use case. I would really like to get to the bottom of this, so all information is helpful.
Old 2nd May 2019
  #3868
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp3 View Post
But that begs the question. Why has their DJ userbase not made a huge stink about this? I mean I get the politics and all, but it would seem to me that community would be more inclined than ours to recognize such an issue. And if there is a degree of shared code between their devices, as you theorized elsewhere, then isn't there a chance that means either that this problem is/was present in their other devices, or that the solution is already in-house? Just weird...

I would guess it's because a vast majority of the DJ userbase has no clue WTF they are doing and when they realized the machine doesn't actually make music on its own without putting work in to it, they put it on the shelf or sold it to some other DJ who then did the same thing which is why the marketplace is flooded with sub $800 SP-16s.
Old 2nd May 2019
  #3869
Lives for gear
 
Cornish1999's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp3 View Post
It's an even more serious problem for the DJ booth, where you are more or less required to sync over long periods of time.

I don't deny your claim (and I have kept out of this discussion because I don't really use the SP-16 in a way that would expose this flaw - and I have limited free time so the last thing I wanna do is run tests with that time lol), but taking the DJ's use case into consideration, this is more or less a fatal flaw, if true.

But that begs the question. Why has their DJ userbase not made a huge stink about this? I mean I get the politics and all, but it would seem to me that community would be more inclined than ours to recognize such an issue. And if there is a degree of shared code between their devices, as you theorized elsewhere, then isn't there a chance that means either that this problem is/was present in their other devices, or that the solution is already in-house? Just weird...
Just chipping in...

As a DJS1000 user it has a tempo slider so you can basically beat match. This is what I do currently as I’m to lazy to midi
synch it and I enjoy the fun of beat matching to my vinyl and Traktor set up.

Apparently pro dj link will give you rock solid bpm synch to cdj’s . I’ve yet to try this though a xdj1000 is on the shopping list

Apologies if not relevant but kinda considering the djs is a relative of the sp16

The tempo slider is also ripe for creative abuse in mangling and variation in jams and recording too. I’m a big fan of the djs as I’ll tell anyone who will listen/read
Old 4th May 2019
  #3870
I'm suddenly a bit interested in this thing for using it as a very basic studiosampler. Maybe just to slice a drumloop on a couple of pads and on another couple have some atmospheric sampes that are editted/looped/timestretched.

If you don't use internal sequencing, does it react fast and reliable (qua timing) with miditriggering?

Is this a good idea in general?
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