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cant figure out time signature!
Old 2nd February 2007
  #1
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kindkind's Avatar
 

cant figure out time signature!

Hey sample heads.

Ive come up with this little diddy using a motif AN arpeggiator. I dont think the gear is relevant in this case but anyway in the arpeggiator i have selected "1/24" out of possible choices like 1/4, 3/16, 1/32 etc...This is in the pulldown window of a section labled "subdivide"

That is all fine and whatever but my problem is that upon tracking into PT the 4/4 grid wont align to the music (yes i have the tempo matched = 120) So i tried a lot of time signatures like 5/4, 9/8.....the one that was close was 11/8. but it wasnt right on. so i multiplied it and adjusted the numerator a little all the way up to aound 85/64.

this is close but no cigar. PT will not let me go higher than 99 value so i am stuck now. I dont think i have created an irrational beat.

I looked time sig up on wiki and i learned some stuff about irrationals but i dont think that what i have created is that complicated. but it isnt 4/4 and its not 3/4 or any of the usuals. How the F am i supposed to create a drum track with no grid! i have to figure this time sig out and listening and counting is probly a good option but i am not good at it. seems i always count the four beat when i just listen to it!

i really dont expect any help on this one just taking a stab!
Old 2nd February 2007
  #2
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toolskid's Avatar
 

just post a sample of the sequence!
Old 2nd February 2007
  #3
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woomanmoomin's Avatar
 

Would have to hear the music, but 85/64 is a pretty clear sign that something's just plain wrong, and 24 does not make sense to me as a denominator here either. 2, 4, 8, 16 (a bit unusual), 32 (definitely rare), even 64 (rocking-horse excrement), but not 24.
Old 2nd February 2007
  #4
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you should probably not bother with trying to pur anything other than 4, 8, or maybe 16 in the denominator. If you post a clip, I will tell you what time signature it's in. (The clip should have at least 3 or 4 complete cycles.)
Old 2nd February 2007
  #5
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woomanmoomin's Avatar
 

I tried to edit my message above but it didn't work out, so here's another message.

I think the best thing you can do short of letting someone here do all the work for you is find a way to put the music down on paper, then count the beats and try to get your head around the structure. If it makes sense to divide the sequence into, say, 4, 8, 16 or 32 simple units (at the lowest level), then you are probably looking at 2/4 or 4/4, or one of the other, less common metres along those lines with 8, 16 or maybe even 32 as denominator. 64 is conceivable but pointless, as you could probably just double the numerator and change the 64 to a 32. (Aha!!) Even 32 seems pretty far-out to me, although maybe not so much with computer gear that can play at crazy speeds the Ensemble Modern of Berlin could only dream about...

5, 10, 15 or 20 units per phrase/sequence and you should think about one of those as your numerator. 3, 6, 9, 12 etc. point to 3/4, 6/8, 9/8 (unusual?), maybe 12/4, 12/8...

Mind you, each of the metres has its own little nuances. For instance, 3/4 and 6/8 are kind of equivalent (just with both numerator and denominator doubled in the case of 6/8, you know, so that the fraction is kind of the same) but they sound and feel different. 3/4 is waltz metre (ONE-two- three, ONE-two-three) whereas 6/8 actually has a kind of one-two thing going on (as a march does) but with each half divided into three smaller beats (so, ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six, ONE-two-three-FOUR-five-six). 6/8 was always popular as a rock 'n' roll metre and it works especially well on piano. Fats Domino uses it a lot. I'm guessing 'Blueberry Hill' would have to be in 6/8.

Another hint... Once the denominator gets beyond about 16, there's a pretty good chance you could break down the metre in another way and end up with a smaller, less ungainly denominator. A 16th note (as represented by a denominator of 16) is already a semi-quaver (=tiny), so if you've got any multiple of 16 as a denominator then there's probably something fishy. Most of the time, you can probably put the whole thing in a metre with a lowish denominator (4, 8, 16) and just make the thing play faster.

Hope that helps.

No offence, but I'm guessing your approach is just a bit too much on the intuitive side at the moment, and to know how best to handle this piece, you're gonna have to get your head around the structure thing. Anyway it pays dividends.
Old 2nd February 2007
  #6
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kindkind View Post
Hey sample heads.

Ive come up with this little diddy using a motif AN arpeggiator. I dont think the gear is relevant in this case but anyway in the arpeggiator i have selected "1/24" out of possible choices like 1/4, 3/16, 1/32 etc...This is in the pulldown window of a section labled "subdivide"

That is all fine and whatever but my problem is that upon tracking into PT the 4/4 grid wont align to the music (yes i have the tempo matched = 120) So i tried a lot of time signatures like 5/4, 9/8.....the one that was close was 11/8. but it wasnt right on. so i multiplied it and adjusted the numerator a little all the way up to aound 85/64.

this is close but no cigar. PT will not let me go higher than 99 value so i am stuck now. I dont think i have created an irrational beat.

I looked time sig up on wiki and i learned some stuff about irrationals but i dont think that what i have created is that complicated. but it isnt 4/4 and its not 3/4 or any of the usuals. How the F am i supposed to create a drum track with no grid! i have to figure this time sig out and listening and counting is probly a good option but i am not good at it. seems i always count the four beat when i just listen to it!

i really dont expect any help on this one just taking a stab!
Hmmmm.... a little musical education goes a long way.

Post it and we'll figure it out for you in like, two seconds.

Ed
Old 3rd February 2007
  #7
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Yutaka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kindkind View Post
Hey sample heads.

Ive come up with this little diddy using a motif AN arpeggiator. I dont think the gear is relevant in this case but anyway in the arpeggiator i have selected "1/24" out of possible choices like 1/4, 3/16, 1/32 etc...This is in the pulldown window of a section labled "subdivide"
16th note triplets? You can fit 24 of those in a measure.
Old 3rd February 2007
  #8
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Another tip: Figure out how to beat a drum beat along with it, when you've got it perfect, and make the transition at the same time as the sequence every time, it's only a small step to be able to count it. Also, if, at that point, you still can't figure out how to program it in PT, you can just abandon the grid and use a midi controller to play a lon g with it for your drum part.
Old 3rd February 2007
  #9
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Dave Peck's Avatar
 

From the description of the symptom and the synth's pull-down menu, this doesn't sound like an issue of different time signatures. Perhaps it's a difference of PPQ settings (pulses per quarter note). Changing the time signature in the DAW wouldn't make any difference. You could try changing the DAWs PPQ settings, but I think that could make things more confusing. Probably better to just keep the DAW set to 4/4 time signature and don't touch the DAWs PPQ setting, but DO try adjusting the arpeggiator's 'subdivide' setting while the DAW is running until you find the synth setting that gives you the right arpeggio rate.

DP
Old 4th February 2007
  #10
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barefoot's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yutaka View Post
16th note triplets? You can fit 24 of those in a measure.
Yup, he said 85/64 was close. That's very close to 4/3. But he's trying to treat each note in the sequence as a straight 16th or 32nd note. He needs to treat them as triplets.

kindkind,
Just try a simple 4/4 time signature. Adjust the length of your "diddy" in PT to 8 beats, or two measures. Then you have three diddy notes per beat. The notes should rest in the beats like:

| 1 and a 2 and a 3 and a 4 and a | 1 and a 2 and a 3 and a 4 and a |

Make sense?

Thomas
Old 4th February 2007
  #11
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woomanmoomin's Avatar
 

Struggling to understand all this without the music, but what you describe above sounds suspiciously like 6/8 if all the words/numbers are the same length:

One and a two and a one and a two and a ONE.
I--found--my--thrill...
On Blueberry Hill...

Barefoot, is what you're suggesting like a cheat for 12/8 or something, so it's easier to input? (Not sure how the notes are generally grouped in 12/8. Four groups of three, maybe.)
Old 4th February 2007
  #12
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barefoot's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by woomanmoomin View Post
One and a two and a one and a two and a ONE.
I--found--my--thrill...
On Blueberry Hill...

Barefoot, is what you're suggesting like a cheat for 12/8 or something, so it's easier to input? (Not sure how the notes are generally grouped in 12/8. Four groups of three, maybe.)
Here's an example using 8th note triplets: triplets.mp3
Old 4th February 2007
  #13
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I'm curious. Would love to hear the sample. Unusual time signatures really interest me. So please post a sample if you can.
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