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Arturia MatrixBrute
Old 1 week ago
  #3121
Lives for gear
 
Will The Weirdo's Avatar
I'm waiting too, Arturia needs to get their s**t together ASAP or end up like K-Mart!
Old 1 week ago
  #3122
Lives for gear
 
DrJustice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisL1982 View Post
...
Some people choose to freely give their time to issues like this. Which I respect. I expect others to respect those who don't believe in giving their time for free. I was given some slack in the past RE my not contributing by sending bug fixes through. On this point I'm firm - I'm not doing Arturia's job for them.
...
Others 'helping' may be seen as a positive - or it could be seen as continuing a culture of company complacency. There's a danger it could produce a company attitude of 'release the equipment with bugs - the customer will tell us what is wrong - and want to fix it for us, given they have invested so much in the product'.
...
I personally think a hole is being dug with the 'free beta tester' approach.
...
Right, so yet again you're pissing on community efforts. You say that you respect it, yet goes on in the following disrespectful sentences to belittle it and even having the gall to blame it for bugs. By all means continue to post your repeated rants here and at the Arturia forum, but please take the belittling of the community out of your repertoire.

By all means also continue "being firm" on not sharing your already compiled list of bugs, even though it's effectively cutting off your nose to spite your face - that is, if you really want bugs fixed. You wouldn't be doing anything for free, the "work" has already been done of your own volition and withholding it is not going to earn you anything, including a better synth. I don't even mind it, it's your right for sure, even though the whole thing is quite pointless.

And for this you demand respect, with your <ahem> let's just say uncool treatment of community efforts.

I'll refrain from posting my lengthy offline written comments on the rest of it; I think most people understand that in a tiny industry like the synth industry (yes, really, except a trio or so of big players) it's hard to release squeaky clean products whatever the reasons may be. That's not an excuse, just observation of facts. Even huge corporations and small one man operations release buggy software all the time.

Just so it's clear, I also think this particular update has taken too long. However, the reality of the matter is that community interaction and voluntary testing is part of the cycle, especially for the smaller companies, and it results in better gear. I reckon most of us choose to keep our feet on the ground and try to be constructive and help the cause instead of poisoning the waters - we'll continue to debate, test and report to make it possible to get bug fixes, "working for free" so that your demands may be met
Old 1 week ago
  #3123
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisL1982 View Post
But I'm not an Arturia employee - therefore I'm not working for them for free by giving them a complete breakdown of everything wrong with their machine.

Some people choose to freely give their time to issues like this. Which I respect. I expect others to respect those who don't believe in giving their time for free. I was given some slack in the past RE my not contributing by sending bug fixes through. On this point I'm firm - I'm not doing Arturia's job for them.

My own position is 'fix it or I'm not purchasing another product from you'.

Others 'helping' may be seen as a positive - or it could be seen as continuing a culture of company complacency. There's a danger it could produce a company attitude of 'release the equipment with bugs - the customer will tell us what is wrong - and want to fix it for us, given they have invested so much in the product'.


If customers simply stopped purchasing instruments, you could guarantee the companies would fix the issues very, very quickly.


Thankfully some companies also realize reputation is important RE community standing (i.e Moog - who I was quite firm with RE the One - but in their defense, Amos acted quickly, showing great respect to customers. Well done Moog - and Amos. All respect due).

I personally think a hole is being dug with the 'free beta tester' approach.



The job of fixing Arturia products (including bug identification) is Arturia's job.

The customer has no responsibility to the company - but the company does have a responsibility to the purchaser.



And I personally know companies less than 10 people who manage to maintain very high standards RE compliance/quality assurance etc.

The problem here is poor management.

The biggest problem with the Matrixbrute is Arturia (in their present form).

I like to think they could turn around RE attitude, but nothing from them leads me to believe this will be the case.

Hopefully I'm wrong.
Allow me to rephrase a famous quote:

“Christ! Where would software development be without feedback?”

You can sit in your ivory tower and be all negative about the bugs and refuse to report them systematically. Or you can speed up the process of getting them fixed and help Arturia for free by giving them a list and share it with the community. I respect your choice, but I cannot understand it.

I guess Apple also could do all the beta-testing in house, but that will just increase the price even further of their products and ensure even poorer quality of updates. Instead they make public beta programs and provide a form for customer feedback and bug reporting. It’s simply just more efficient and everybody benefits. Software (and firmware) development would be so much slower without.

Edit: While I totally agree that it is Arturias responsibility to fix the bugs, I simply cannot understand while you would not want to help and speed things up. It’s ok to complain and two years of waiting is too much. But be constructive
Old 1 week ago
  #3124
Lives for gear
 
octatonic's Avatar
Some people just like to moan.
Old 1 week ago
  #3125
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
Right, so yet again you're pissing on community efforts. You say that you respect it, yet goes on in the following disrespectful sentences to belittle it and even having the gall to blame it for bugs. By all means continue to post your repeated rants here and at the Arturia forum, but please take the belittling of the community out of your repertoire.

By all means also continue "being firm" on not sharing your already compiled list of bugs, even though it's effectively cutting off your nose to spite your face - that is, if you really want bugs fixed. You wouldn't be doing anything for free, the "work" has already been done of your own volition and withholding it is not going to earn you anything, including a better synth. I don't even mind it, it's your right for sure, even though the whole thing is quite pointless.

And for this you demand respect, with your <ahem> lets just say uncool treatment of community efforts.

I'll refrain from posting my lengthy offline written comments on the rest of it; I think most people understand that in a tiny industry like the synth industry (yes, really, except a trio or so of big players) it's hard to release squeaky clean products whatever the reasons my be. That's not an excuse, just observation of facts. Even huge corporations and small one man operations release buggy software all the time.

Just so it's clear, I also think this particular update has taken too long. However, the reality of the matter is that community interaction and voluntary testing is part of the cycle, especially for the smaller companies, and it results in better gear. I reckon most of us choose to keep our feet on the ground and try to be constructive and help the cause instead of poisoning the waters - we'll continue to debate, test and report to make it possible to get bug fixes, "working for free" so that your demands may be met
Oh damn the SmackDown! Help Arturia! We got people all rolling around and bleeding and s**t, we need a firmware update stat!
Old 1 week ago
  #3126
Lives for gear
 
Lee Wilson's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oekoumene View Post
Oh damn the SmackDown! Help Arturia! We got people all rolling around and bleeding and s**t, we need a firmware update stat!
We need a triage thread, just to sort the bodies out.
Old 1 week ago
  #3127
Thank gawd for this thread, I was a ball hair away from buying this...youd think that theyd learn after releasing the BSP with a drunk sequencer
Old 1 week ago
  #3128
Lives for gear
 
DrSax's Avatar
Yeah, I’m thankful for this thread too... I bought a Matrixbrute and love the thing. What a great sounding synth. And inspiring to use. As with ALL instruments and gear in my studio, each piece has its strengths and weaknesses. I use each piece for its strengths. If you are worried about sequencer drift over a 60 minute live set, then perhaps you could use a different synth for that purpose, and use the MxB for shorter sections (less than 40 minutes), or use it for live real-time playing. That’s where it shines. It can be altered and manipulated in so many ways. I’ll look forward to any future updates but as is, the MxB is something very special - and huge bang for the buck compared to most synths on the market.
Old 1 week ago
  #3129
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSax View Post
Yeah, I’m thankful for this thread too... I bought a Matrixbrute and love the thing. What a great sounding synth. And inspiring to use. As with ALL instruments and gear in my studio, each piece has its strengths and weaknesses. I use each piece for its strengths. If you are worried about sequencer drift over a 60 minute live set, then perhaps you could use a different synth for that purpose, and use the MxB for shorter sections (less than 40 minutes), or use it for live real-time playing. That’s where it shines. It can be altered and manipulated in so many ways. I’ll look forward to any future updates but as is, the MxB is something very special - and huge bang for the buck compared to most synths on the market.
With swing its out in 3bars? Now I know I use slow tempos but thats not 60mins.

Ill buy it when its definitely fixed, Ive got loads of arturia stuff and most of it has had teething problems in the beginning. I remember being a beta tester for spark and telling them countless times that it didnt show bars 16-32 bars on the software gui and they still released it lol

Btw was it you that said you used an 18i20? I used to have a lot of problems syncing my TI and MD with the 18i20, something to do with focusrite using ms for buffers, have you tried with a different interface?

Sorry if its already been mentioned Ive only joined the thread.
Old 1 week ago
  #3130
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisL1982 View Post
But I'm not an Arturia employee - therefore I'm not working for them for free by giving them a complete breakdown of everything wrong with their machine.



Some people choose to freely give their time to issues like this. Which I respect. I expect others to respect those who don't believe in giving their time for free. I was given some slack in the past RE my not contributing by sending bug fixes through. On this point I'm firm - I'm not doing Arturia's job for them.

My own position is 'fix it or I'm not purchasing another product from you'.

Others 'helping' may be seen as a positive - or it could be seen as continuing a culture of company complacency. There's a danger it could produce a company attitude of 'release the equipment with bugs - the customer will tell us what is wrong - and want to fix it for us, given they have invested so much in the product'.


If customers simply stopped purchasing instruments, you could guarantee the companies would fix the issues very, very quickly.


Thankfully some companies also realize reputation is important RE community standing (i.e Moog - who I was quite firm with RE the One - but in their defense, Amos acted quickly, showing great respect to customers. Well done Moog - and Amos. All respect due).

Most of the times I stay out of this kind of debates but I saw your posts both here and at the Arturia forum and honestly it is very hard to understand your attitude. Although I agree with you that companies should do their job in the best possible way and take care of bugs and everything, but we are in a situation where things are what they are.

The way you express that you know all the bugs but you are not reporting to help Arturia because it is not your job is very similar to the following situation. You are in your home with all your valuable things and the house is on fire and everything is burning but you refuse to save yourself and your things because you say it is not your job to help the fire fighters to do their job (because you expect them to do their job) so you prefer to stay inside the house and burn.

You already bought that synth, you payed a large amount of cash for it, you discovered most of the bugs already, but you stubornly prefer to use the Matrixbrute as it is with all the bugs and not benefit from the possibility to correct them. Not very smart just to put it mildly. And you expect to be respected for your choice...

I bought my Matrixbrute knowing it has more than fifty bugs (would do it again without hesitation) and did not care because I bought if for what it does, not for what it will do when all the bugs are solved. Yes I would be happy to see Arturia solving all the bugs (and hope they will do) but as it is, is a fantastic machine. The way I use it, the bugs do not affect me.
Anyway, I have no regrets buying it. Nothing comes close to it (even with all the bugs).
Old 1 week ago
  #3131
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSax View Post
Yeah, I’m thankful for this thread too... I bought a Matrixbrute and love the thing. What a great sounding synth. And inspiring to use. As with ALL instruments and gear in my studio, each piece has its strengths and weaknesses. I use each piece for its strengths. If you are worried about sequencer drift over a 60 minute live set, then perhaps you could use a different synth for that purpose, and use the MxB for shorter sections (less than 40 minutes), or use it for live real-time playing. That’s where it shines. It can be altered and manipulated in so many ways. I’ll look forward to any future updates but as is, the MxB is something very special - and huge bang for the buck compared to most synths on the market.
On mine the arp drifts after a couple of minutes or less, and like KrisL1982 mentioned, if there is any note overhang, it's impossible to chop and line up manually, also on my unit it isn't a consistent drift, which compounds manual edits.
although I love this synth and probably wouldn't kick it out of bed for drifting, I look forward to being able to multitrack a 'music' with arps and seq in the studio at a decent bpm (130+), and not just be happy with some solo prog or ambient noodling, as great as that is...
Old 1 week ago
  #3132
Gear Addict
 
RobGee's Avatar
 

I’m more than happy with my MatrixBrute. 2/3 oscillators, noise, external input, dual multimode filters, 3 envelopes, 2/3 lfos, analog effects, all knobs can be modulated via the matrix or controlled via midi, there’s nothing out there like it.

I’ve noticed that the tempo drifts if externally synced but I haven’t noticed any issues if the tempo is set internally. Yes I’d like more sync options for the lfos and effects but even if it never gets updated (which doesn’t seem to be the case), I won’t be getting rid of mine anytime soon.
Old 1 week ago
  #3133
Quote:
Originally Posted by kcearl View Post
With swing its out in 3bars? Now I know I use slow tempos but thats not 60mins.

Ill buy it when its definitely fixed, Ive got loads of arturia stuff and most of it has had teething problems in the beginning. I remember being a beta tester for spark and telling them countless times that it didnt show bars 16-32 bars on the software gui and they still released it lol

Btw was it you that said you used an 18i20? I used to have a lot of problems syncing my TI and MD with the 18i20, something to do with focusrite using ms for buffers, have you tried with a different interface?

Sorry if its already been mentioned Ive only joined the thread.
Yes 18i20 gen2 but not sending out midi. My matrixbrute is sync'd via audio converted to midi and a confirmed stable source with other devices.
Old 1 week ago
  #3134
I am also in the camp of wow this synth's hardware is awesome, to be clear. Arturia have claimed it to be something that it is not and it was not ready for release, they purposely attempted to bamboozle their customers.
I for the life of me cannot understand why the people who, in good faith, bought a product and were not given what they paid for, would defend the perpetrator of said bamboozlment. Sure, you can work around some of the bugs, but I believe every section of the synth has bugs of varying degrees of harshness. You paid full price right? I could understand if it was discounted for not fully functioning, that would be fair. We paid full price and were told it was fully functioning. Why would people enable this type of treatment by Arturia?
Yes the synths specs are impressive but how can anyone ignore the heinous omissions of quality control in the software. It's like they took from the programming budget to pay for marketing. I'm ashamed to say, it worked on me; at least enough to get it in my studio before I noticed the lemon that it was.

Now that we are aware of the issues, why give excuses for the company, even after continued negligence. I say, hold them accountable and we may get the synth that they promised!
Old 1 week ago
  #3135
Gear Nut
 

I don’t know how they implemented the sync functions, but I kind of fear that the sync issues might be hardware related. That would also explain why it’s not so easy to implement a firmware fix. It might even be impossible. Have we heard anything directly from Arturia about the root cause?
Old 1 week ago
  #3136
Lives for gear
 
DrJustice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninecows View Post
I don’t know how they implemented the sync functions, but I kind of fear that the sync issues might be hardware related. That would also explain why it’s not so easy to implement a firmware fix. It might even be impossible. Have we heard anything directly from Arturia about the root cause?
It's in firmware, and we don't know that it's hard to fix since the issue only recently has been brought up and reported. Being a sync slave that stays locked for eternity is in principle very simple (can be DIY'ed in a screenful of code), and with the waves created around it, and since it Should Just Work™, I can't imagine it not being part of the update. Keeping my fingers crossed
Old 1 week ago
  #3137
Lives for gear
 
cane creek's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
It's in firmware, and we don't know that it's hard to fix since the issue only recently has been brought up and reported. Being a sync slave that stays locked for eternity is in principle very simple (can be DIY'ed in a screenful of code), and with the waves created around it, and since it Should Just Work™, I can't imagine it not being part of the update. Keeping my fingers crossed
It can all be fixed but i guess the code is only as good as the coder.
Old 1 week ago
  #3138
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by standingwave View Post
I am also in the camp of wow this synth's hardware is awesome, to be clear. Arturia have claimed it to be something that it is not and it was not ready for release, they purposely attempted to bamboozle their customers.
I for the life of me cannot understand why the people who, in good faith, bought a product and were not given what they paid for, would defend the perpetrator of said bamboozlment. Sure, you can work around some of the bugs, but I believe every section of the synth has bugs of varying degrees of harshness. You paid full price right? I could understand if it was discounted for not fully functioning, that would be fair. We paid full price and were told it was fully functioning. Why would people enable this type of treatment by Arturia?
Yes the synths specs are impressive but how can anyone ignore the heinous omissions of quality control in the software. It's like they took from the programming budget to pay for marketing. I'm ashamed to say, it worked on me; at least enough to get it in my studio before I noticed the lemon that it was.

Now that we are aware of the issues, why give excuses for the company, even after continued negligence. I say, hold them accountable and we may get the synth that they promised!
Unless i'm missing something, I still can't believe i need to connect my matrix brute to a computer just to change a midi channel or name a new patch i create. Seems at it's most basic level silly.
Old 1 week ago
  #3139
Lives for gear
 
Phil Aiken's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankenstino View Post
Unless i'm missing something, I still can't believe i need to connect my matrix brute to a computer just to change a midi channel or name a new patch i create. Seems at it's most basic level silly.
Its dependance on the computer software for that basic functionality is absolutely a drawback. Even if there was some arcane series of button pushes to change midi channels it would be nice.
A 4th matrix mode that allowed you to enter/edit that information would be very welcome. First row you can toggle midi-in channels on/off. 2nd row, midi-out.
Easy.
Old 1 week ago
  #3140
In general the concept of the matrix is amazing. The execution of it by Arturia in it's current firmware does not live up to what could be possible in my opinion.
Yes we should be able to use it in lieu of anything that MCC can do. Given some time and imagination the matrix could truly be revolutionary. Hopefully the current programmers are being given the time and freedom to explore some bold design ideas and are listening to our requests and ideas for inspiration.

I agree that the synth shouldn't be coupled to MCC. That will be the eventual last nail in its coffin if not rectified.
Old 1 week ago
  #3141
Lives for gear
 
DrJustice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Aiken View Post
Its dependance on the computer software for that basic functionality is absolutely a drawback. Even if there was some arcane series of button pushes to change midi channels it would be nice.
A 4th matrix mode that allowed you to enter/edit that information would be very welcome. First row you can toggle midi-in channels on/off. 2nd row, midi-out.
Easy.
There are enough alphanumeric displays to implement a menu for the system parameters and patch naming that currently ties it to the MCC software.

I've been campaigning for unchaining it from the MCC - check out the Patch name, system param and extended patch param editing proposal. Something along those lines would open up the synth to be truly stand alone and enable extra features.

Be sure to submit a ticket to Arturia to request MCC independence!
Old 1 week ago
  #3142
Gear Head
 

Thanks for that. I'll give some responses below to your points.


But just to be clear: I very much enjoy the Matrixbrute. I've always stated so. It is a fantastic synth - possibly my favourite mono (non-modular).

It should also be stated that no customer should have to defend their position RE opinion towards a product they own. If someone doesn't like something, we should respect that (not to be confused with stating falsities RE features etc, of course). Respect should be given to all opinions - including those we disagree with.

I respect those who choose to disagree with me.




Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissugar View Post
Most of the times I stay out of this kind of debates but I saw your posts both here and at the Arturia forum and honestly it is very hard to understand your attitude. Although I agree with you that companies should do their job in the best possible way and take care of bugs and everything, but we are in a situation where things are what they are.
And therein is the key of the issue. Things didn't have to be 'what they are' if Arturia had acted promptly RE bug fixes etc. Things are 'what they are' precisely due to Arturia's failure to respond RE the problems they released the instrument with.



Let me also add here that I'm personally in no way against Arturia. 'The Matrixbrute has problems' is a neutral statement. As is 'this could have been handled far more efficiently'.





Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissugar View Post
The way you express that you know all the bugs but you are not reporting to help Arturia because it is not your job is very similar to the following situation. You are in your home with all your valuable things and the house is on fire and everything is burning but you refuse to save yourself and your things because you say it is not your job to help the fire fighters to do their job (because you expect them to do their job) so you prefer to stay inside the house and burn.

Your argument is logically fallacious.

If Andrew Scheps purchased an album and one of the tracks had a poor mix, is Andrew somehow obliged to call the artist and share his knowledge/insight with them simply due to his owning the album, and his having the knowledge of how to improve the product?

Is Andrew 'at fault' for knowing what is wrong with a product?


To answer your point directly: firefighters battling a house blaze wouldn't ask someone who isn't a firefighter to put out the blaze (even if the person could help). Likewise, Arturia probably shouldn't ask non-Arturia employees to fight the blaze.

Not that a buggy synth is a matter of life-or-death (hence the comparison is poor).




Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissugar View Post
You already bought that synth, you payed a large amount of cash for it, you discovered most of the bugs already, but you stubornly prefer to use the Matrixbrute as it is with all the bugs and not benefit from the possibility to correct them.
Put simply, yes.

If I purchased a VW and it had flaws: I'd wait and see how VW fixed issues. If VW didn't deal with the issues promptly - or deal with their customers respectfully - I'd walk away and never purchase another VW.




Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissugar View Post
Not very smart just to put it mildly. And you expect to be respected for your choice...
Remain respectful. I don't believe I've insulted anyone, or questioned their intelligence.


Yes - I respect others who desire to contribute RE bugs etc (I'd call this working for Arturia for free. Of course, suggestions RE desired updates is completely different from bug identification/reporting etc).

And yes - I expect you to respect my position.




Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissugar View Post
I bought my Matrixbrute knowing it has more than fifty bugs (would do it again without hesitation) and did not care because I bought if for what it does, not for what it will do when all the bugs are solved. Yes I would be happy to see Arturia solving all the bugs (and hope they will do) but as it is, is a fantastic machine. The way I use it, the bugs do not affect me.
Anyway, I have no regrets buying it. Nothing comes close to it (even with all the bugs).
I purchased two - I'm a fan of the instrument.



Part of the fix is simple: a point-by-point compliance checklist worked through by an employee.


I'm paid by companies to fix these kind of issues. I'm not working for free - just as Scheps isn't expected to fix every bad mix he hears. Andrew has an obligation to those who pay him - and no-one else.




This is a matter of principle - not a question of the instrument being sub-par.

In saying that, though, certain bugs are in fact making the instrument sub-par (i.e clock).



All best
Kris
Old 6 days ago
  #3143
Gear Head
 

Just noticed this post - which I'll address:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
Right, so yet again you're pissing on community efforts.

I'll ignore the language/tone, and share something with you RE 'community' from a previous life in marketing within the industry.

Do you know why companies invest large sums in creating a sense of 'community'?

A customer is less likely to speak out if they feel they are part of something. In short - they will want to avoid exclusion. If someone can be part of/given access to something, they can be excluded from it.

Part of the function of community is control.




I believe my 'community efforts' speak on their own merits (i.e music created on MB). Now - these may not be the community efforts you personally wish to see - but this doesn't disqualify a very worthwhile contribution (Arturia have sold a large number of Matrixbrutes due to my content).


You should think carefully before creating an 'us vs. them' with your comments on community.


Take note that I haven't spoke negatively RE your own posts on the MB. Yet you are trying to create division.

I believe my honesty and open position RE the Matrixbrute speaks for itself. I'm not acting on behalf of a company - neither am I blatantly defending the end-user. Nor should this have to be explained each and every time an issue arises - this time the issue being Arturia failing to meet their very own delivery date.



The nub of the issue is:

Being 'all positive' or 'all negative' is unrealistic.

It is ok to say we like an instrument and also say there are problems.

The opposite could be very unhealthy.

Is a community a 'community' if only positive statements are welcomed? I'd call that a cult.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
You say that you respect it, yet goes on in the following disrespectful sentences to belittle it and even having the gall to blame it for bugs. By all means continue to post your repeated rants here and at the Arturia forum, but please take the belittling of the community out of your repertoire.
Show respect and stop making this personal.

And again - you are trying to create division RE 'us and them' with your comments on community.

That isn't going to work. Others have eyes.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
By all means also continue "being firm" on not sharing your already compiled list of bugs
I certainly will continue to do so.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
even though it's effectively cutting off your nose to spite your face - that is, if you really want bugs fixed.
If Arturia and every MB owner wishes to make this a personal issue against me, by all means they may proceed if they wish.


Trying to pressure someone into acting in accordance to your wishes by using 'the community' says probably more than you realise.

Arturia are the ones cutting off their nose by failing to live up to their own word RE update delivery date etc.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
You wouldn't be doing anything for free, the "work" has already been done of your own volition and withholding it is not going to earn you anything, including a better synth. I don't even mind it, it's your right for sure, even though the whole thing is quite pointless.

Not pointless at all. Once Arturia realise the fixing of problems is Arturia's responsibility, I guarantee you things will change.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
And for this you demand respect, with your <ahem> let's just say uncool treatment of community efforts.
I believe I've spoken to others as they have spoken to me.

Rereading your entire body of text: you probably should have given thought before the 'you vs. community' approach.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
I think most people understand that in a tiny industry like the synth industry (yes, really, except a trio or so of big players) it's hard to release squeaky clean products whatever the reasons may be. That's not an excuse, just observation of facts. Even huge corporations and small one man operations release buggy software all the time.
In the industry it is referred to as leading edge vs. bleeding edge.

I agree with you RE issues (especially with bleeding edge technology. Whether the MB is bleeding edge is questionable).

The point is: if flaws are discovered, they should be patched quickly.

...which takes us back to resource allocation, and poor management protocols.


A grand total of zero Matrixbrute owners should feel any guilt or responsibility towards the current situation - nor should they feel pressured to 'contribute'.

Nor should it be implied that they are not part of 'a community' if they choose to do absolutely nothing.


Are you sure this is the community image you want to create the impression of i.e 'fail to act as we wish and we will act against you'?





Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
Just so it's clear, I also think this particular update has taken too long.
This will sound odd, given my statements - but I'm personally indifferent to whether Arturia choose to release an update 1 year after release or 5 years after release.

Legally, Arturia have no obligation to comply with something they have no legal requirement to comply to.


The issue is going back on word, as this affects trust - which affects reputation.

Arturia should take this very, very seriously.

All synth companies should. Hence they should also be very careful RE the 'kind' of community they want to create the impression of (as they can inadvertently exclude large sections of their customer base).

'Community' should be built on a firm basis of strong customer relations/QC etc. Without this, the 'community' is a house of sand.



I said it elsewhere, but I'll repeat it here:

If Arturia ever commission a high-level compliance audit (i.e at National Audit level), top of the list for threats to company is 'loss of reputation'. In technical terms, this is classed as 'catastrophic'. Losing 5 million? This is small in comparison. The importance of reputation to perception of company cannot be stressed enough.


Now - you may personally wish to make this a 'you are affecting the MB community' issue - but this isn't the real issue. The real issue is the loss of trust with the MB community - not my refusal to send a bug list to Arturia.

As seen by Frederic's comment on Inside Synthesis' review of the MB, Arturia's position RE customer confidence was already at a low. Arturia promised to improve in this area - and the release of the MB certainly gave the impression this was the case - but the 2+ year wait has only strengthened the opinion of those who were initially doubtful.

The best indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour. For Arturia's sake, I hope they prove this to be wrong.


I'm for Arturia - not against them. I'm also not your enemy.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
However, the reality of the matter is that community interaction and voluntary testing is part of the cycle, especially for the smaller companies, and it results in better gear.
Arturia is, by synth standards a large company. I've helped companies of 5 employees who have more stringent standards RE customer satisfaction etc.

What results in better gear is companies respecting their customers, doing their very best - and not using 'community' as a means of generating repeat business. 'Community' is an add-on - not a foundation. Community doesn't matter if the products are sub-par/flawed: especially not if the tide turns RE perception.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
I reckon most of us choose to keep our feet on the ground and try to be constructive
I absolutely agree. Hence my belief in what I'm saying to Arturia.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post
and help the cause instead of poisoning the waters - we'll continue to debate, test and report to make it possible to get bug fixes, "working for free" so that your demands may be met
Again you are playing 'we the community vs. you'. We've covered this, so I won't go over that ground again.


What makes it possible to get bug fixes is Arturia's actions - not the action of any owner. If every owner simply stopped reporting bugs to Arturia, Arturia should still be working on bug fixes.

Assuming the position of 'I better help, or I'll not get what I want' is backwards. I'd say it is a very weak/flaccid position to take. You should have gotten what you wanted when you paid for the instrument (again, I make the distinction between bug fixes and firmware updates. By all means users should contribute RE desired firmware updates. I also feel companies should probably charge for those, as firmware updates (not bug fixes) are above & beyond the purchase. Does this mean I'm now an enemy of the user and a defender of the companies?)


On purchasing the MB, we owe Arturia absolutely nothing.
But they owe us.


I've certainly contributed RE the MB. Again - it may not be the kind of contribution you want - but this doesn't negate it or me as failing to contribute.



PS even if a MB user has made absolutely no contribution to 'the community' - they are still entitled to an opinion, as they have contributed to Arturia. This isn't a points system where owners are judged based on what they have shared.


My own contributions in no way entitle me to speak on behalf of anyone aside from myself. The same for yourself. Let others speak their own opinion, rather than speaking of or for 'the community'.




PS if replying to me, take time to think about what I have said, and also what you are going to say. I have spent enough time on this issue, and do not want to spend any more energy explaining why I am not contributing RE bug reports.
Old 6 days ago
  #3144
Lives for gear
 
DrJustice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisL1982 View Post
...
PS if replying to me, take time to think about what I have said, and also what you are going to say. I have spent enough time on this issue, and do not want to spend any more energy explaining why I am not contributing RE bug reports.
I have taken my time and thought about things and been purposely short and to the point, not belabouring things endlessly with walls of text. Not really interested anymore either; I've read it all several times before. As for tone, well I see this the opposite of you. I suppose nothing can be done about that and further "debate" is not going to lead anywhere. If I were to post to refute your points this would become completely unwieldy and not of interest to anyone (and by Jove, refuting is needed as you extrapolate to the stratosphere and wrongly attribute a lot of crap to me that I've never said or meant, like the "us vs them" claim which is the diametrically opposite of what I speak up for - it's rambling in the extreme IMO).

Just one question, why are you posting with two different accounts in this thread (the other being KL1982)? That made it a bit hard to backtrack and find all the other instances of most of these same points. Rule 1 in the forum rules states that it's strictly forbidden to open more than 1 account. There is a reason for that.
Old 6 days ago
  #3145
Lives for gear
 
apessino's Avatar
Old 6 days ago
  #3146
Both of you have valid points, and if talking in person, could probably find common ground.
I personally respect both of your contributions to the music technology world and hope philosophic differences can be put aside so that we can all take the best of what both of you need to say.
Peace.
Old 6 days ago
  #3147
Lives for gear
 
DrJustice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by standingwave View Post
...common ground...
Well there are at least two things

"Being 'all positive' or 'all negative' is unrealistic. It is ok to say we like an instrument and also say there are problems."

That is my standpoint too.

And I also believe that Arturia should step up and deliver bug fixes - which they're working on as we speak. That belief extends to all manufacturers of tech of course.

However, the success and quality of that work is directly affected by the help they're getting from the synth community. I will never ever agree that being proactive and helping the situation is somehow bad or something one should absolutely not do unless being paid or on some rather unhelpful principle of "they should do it all themselves because they owe us" - it doesn't work like that. There aren't many of us synth nerds and if we help each other, as well as helping the synth makers helping us, that is helping ourselves, and things can only become better. That's the point I've been making.

Quote:
Peace.
Peace indeed!
Old 6 days ago
  #3148
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJustice View Post

Just one question, why are you posting with two different accounts in this thread (the other being KL1982)? That made it a bit hard to backtrack and find all the other instances of most of these same points. Rule 1 in the forum rules states that it's strictly forbidden to open more than 1 account. There is a reason for that.
Apologies - this I had problems with. I had an account, and lost login details etc. I'm not posting with two accounts, but rather, originally made a few posts with one account and lost those details.

No conspiracy!



We'll agree to disagree RE Arturia. But take note that I respect your right to want to contribute RE bugs - as others should respect the opposite. Hence I don't expect nor will tolerate any personal comment.
Old 6 days ago
  #3149
Lives for gear
 

It is simple.
You can fight your noble fight against windmills, or you can go with the flow and have a bug free instrument faster.
Old 6 days ago
  #3150
Gear Maniac
 
tjontheroad's Avatar
This thread is like the Titanic. It’s about great ship that didn’t make it all way on it’s first voyage. Somebody get me lifeboat.



FWIW, my MB is on my never sell list of gear.
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