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Grouping high hats with all drums or separate..Same for kick Dynamics Plugins
Old 7th October 2015
  #1
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Grouping high hats with all drums or separate..Same for kick

just curious about some other workflows. Typically you hear people group all their drums into the drum bus. But does anyone see any benefit in grouping the high hats on their own. The percussion/claps on their own. And the kick on its own? This is how ive always done it and I just though id see what other people thought.

Well not quite..Right now I leave the kick separate but im thinking about also separating the high hats. The more I learn my own ways of doing things the more I wonder why I cant just have the hats separate from all the percussion. Makes sense to me, So im going to. Just wanted to hear how everyone else does it.
Old 7th October 2015
  #2
Lives for gear
For me it's the always repeating process of trial and error. Every track is different.
Old 7th October 2015
  #3
I process each sound differently then create the following buses:

1) Kick (separate)
2) HH's
3) Perc
4) Synths

I do this to take advantage of Slate Digital VCC and VBC. I find that these can add some nice width / glue / curves without resorting to more specific tools. The other tool I will often use on buses is the bx_saturator.
Old 7th October 2015
  #4
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yeah, kicks, snare/claps/snaps, hats/ride/crashes/shakers go on different groups. parallel processing (or usually smashing to hell) usually for the snare group. keeps things simple. but depends on the daw workflow and how it handles grouping (how much it changes the sound). also, these things cover different freqs so a compressor or eq will need to address them differently. but ultimately, whatever works for you and gets you there. when i was working in the studio, i would have only 3 drum groups for the kick, the overheads and the rest of the drums together. when i was using only a minimal microphone setup, just the kicks would get separate processing, and sometimes they were all together (depending on the style of music). if i was using only one drum kit (smpled and sequenced) with natural drums i would tend to process the whole thing together. when the samples come from various sources, keep them a bit separated. but they all go into the same room reverb for some coherence in the depth and spacing them in the mix.
Old 7th October 2015
  #5
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I've got a tip: take it as you want, or not, if you got a side chain going, put a little HH into it to lift the back end.

My HH bounce around the desk in some infathomable ways sometimes. getting like 4-6 layers of one source.
Old 7th October 2015
  #6
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subdo's Avatar
I put the hats, snares, cymbals and other high register percussion on a bus together and compress with slow attack using an api 2500 plugin. In theory I'm trying to avoid big spikes when a hat, snare, shaker all hit at the same time. In practice it just sounds good which is really all that counts. I'm usually just sending the kick to the 2 bus and a muted bus pre-fader for side chaining.
Old 7th October 2015
  #7
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im only using hardware, but i have a little mackie vlz4 channel mixer that i run with my tr-8. i have the kick on one channel, the clap and snare on another, and everything else on the stereo channel. i then have that going into my main mixer.
Old 7th October 2015
  #8
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XAXAU's Avatar
 

I group separately in Ableton but still send them to the same bus with Ableton limiter on there doing 2-3dB of GR.
Old 7th October 2015
  #9
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Herr Rausch's Avatar
 

I dont think it makes sense in most cases to do the same kind of processing to e.g. a Kick and a Hi Hat. I dont even use buses. I make Audio Effect Racks in Ableton with two Chains - one dry, one wet, with distinct FX for each kind of drum. In the end, thats quasi the same like a bus, but its on the same channel and for me its better to keep an overview.
Old 8th October 2015
  #10
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I absolutely want them to interact with each other when they're going through the drum bus and bus compressor.
Old 8th October 2015
  #11
What we need are examples.
Old 8th October 2015
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traumerei1838 View Post
I absolutely want them to interact with each other when they're going through the drum bus and bus compressor.
I agree, but at the end of all of this I have light compression on my 2bus so in the end it all 'comes together' regardless. So I was thinking because of that it might give me a little wiggle room with how I group my drums rather than focusing so much on keeping them a single instrument.

Until I read about that highhat tip up there I didnt see any point in having my snare in the same compressor as my hats if everrything was going through the 2bus compression at the end anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by teknatronik View Post
What we need are examples.
Examples of what? Why is it always you looking to stir stuff up? Haha this is nothing but a discussion.

We all understand the 'use your ears' answer more than enough. But at some point there has to be a time for basic discussion about workflow and theory without everyone saying 'there are no rules.' Some good answers so far.
Old 8th October 2015
  #13
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you should view it as what kind of freq content it is in the mix.....you want the low separate from high
Old 8th October 2015
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KODID View Post
We all understand the 'use your ears' answer more than enough. But at some point there has to be a time for basic discussion about workflow and theory without everyone saying 'there are no rules.' Some good answers so far.
First you must understand that there is no standard workflow. Next you must describe if you are mixing ITB or ITB, because the workflow is usually very different. Then you have describe the music style, your approach to it etc. After that we may have an answer detailed enough to satisfy you.
Old 8th October 2015
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee View Post
First you must understand that there is no standard workflow. Next you must describe if you are mixing ITB or ITB, because the workflow is usually very different. Then you have describe the music style, your approach to it etc. After that we may have an answer detailed enough to satisfy you.
You dont get it either. I understand there is no standard workflow. THIS IS A DISCUSSION ABOUT WORKFLOWS.. Haha jesus.

Im not trying to solve a problem! There is no answer here where im going to be like "YES! Thats what I needed"

Im opening a discussion. Not everything is a question that needs to be solved. Im not trying to learn anything specific. But when you talk about things thats what happens. You guys need to stop trying to look for ways to assert your knowledge on the internet and just have a discussion for once. Dont get me wrong id probably be responding like you to me if I thought that I was asking the question you think im asking. But im not. If you guys would just read the op youd realize all im trying to do is open up a discussion to hear how everyone does things. I know enough how to figure out to do things on my own. But you literally cant lose anything by hearing other people talk about how they work.
Old 8th October 2015
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KODID View Post
You dont get it either. I understand there is no standard workflow. THIS IS A DISCUSSION ABOUT WORKFLOWS.. Haha jesus.

Im not trying to solve a problem! There is no answer here where im going to be like "YES! Thats what I needed"

Im opening a discussion. Not everything is a question that needs to be solved. Im not trying to learn anything specific. But when you talk about things thats what happens. You guys need to stop trying to look for ways to assert your knowledge on the internet and just have a discussion for once. Dont get me wrong id probably be responding like you to me if I thought that I was asking the question you think im asking. But im not. If you guys would just read the op youd realize all im trying to do is open up a discussion to hear how everyone does things. I know enough how to figure out to do things on my own. But you literally cant lose anything by hearing other people talk about how they work.
Yeah, but you never replied if you're mixing ITB or ITB?
Old 8th October 2015
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee View Post
Yeah, but you never replied if you're mixing ITB or ITB?
Oh my god , what was I thinking?? The synthetic sindom of analogue synthesis? Ow well help me god.

Anyway I resigned from my local church.
Old 8th October 2015
  #18
Lives for gear
lol actually my first response was pretty bad......the whole thing is very situational........i didnt think to really answer what youre really asking....because what youre really asking is basically....when do I buss stuff and when do I not buss stuff.......and there is no real right answer....it all depends no the situation......learning how to buss in th emix is one of the more advanced things about mixing imo......especially for edm.....you have to know what effectyour after and you also have to know how to use the bussess ie. what to put on them

i am just startig t learn how to buss things to achieve certain effects on the mix....this takes along time bro.......what it really comes down to is....you have to know exactly what your going after....you need to know the end result you want in order to use bussing effectively.........because most guys will just bus stuff without thinking about it....and not realize how much of an effect it has on thimix (or doesnt have)... to bus or not to bus that is the grand question,...in fact...it is a very large deep question that you have to have lots of experience mixing to know how to do it properly.
Old 8th October 2015
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by KODID View Post
I agree, but at the end of all of this I have light compression on my 2bus so in the end it all 'comes together' regardless. So I was thinking because of that it might give me a little wiggle room with how I group my drums rather than focusing so much on keeping them a single instrument.

Until I read about that highhat tip up there I didnt see any point in having my snare in the same compressor as my hats if everrything was going through the 2bus compression at the end anyway.



Examples of what? Why is it always you looking to stir stuff up? Haha this is nothing but a discussion.

We all understand the 'use your ears' answer more than enough. But at some point there has to be a time for basic discussion about workflow and theory without everyone saying 'there are no rules.' Some good answers so far.
stir stuff up?

who is hiding under this name now?

how is wanting an example of how you group stuff in audio format going to stir stuff up on an audio format? wow
( joined june 2015) knows me... odd


I am guessing you are a new version of that queens clown whish is a carnation of that nrj clown...

Mod should look into this dudes ip


to add on what you say about basic... we have a section for basic - newb section! use it
Old 9th October 2015
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teknatronik View Post
stir stuff up?

who is hiding under this name now?

how is wanting an example of how you group stuff in audio format going to stir stuff up on an audio format? wow
( joined june 2015) knows me... odd


I am guessing you are a new version of that queens clown whish is a carnation of that nrj clown...

Mod should look into this dudes ip


to add on what you say about basic... we have a section for basic - newb section! use it
haha look at all ya want mods. Not gonna find anything wrong.

And its not hard to remember the name 'teknatronic" considering youre in every thread trying to pretend youre something youre not. If you cant grasp the question then dont worry about it little guy. Keep looking for stuff to try and assert dominance and we will talk like adults. This isnt a question, its a discussion. if you cant handle that then gtfo. There are no right or wrong answers here, just ignorant ones. Dont reply again if youre just gonna give the cliche response im expecting.
Old 9th October 2015
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by KODID View Post
haha look at all ya want mods. Not gonna find anything wrong.

And its not hard to remember the name 'teknatronic" considering youre in every thread trying to pretend youre something youre not. If you cant grasp the question then dont worry about it little guy. Keep looking for stuff to try and assert dominance and we will talk like adults. This isnt a question, its a discussion. if you cant handle that then gtfo. There are no right or wrong answers here, just ignorant ones. Dont reply again if youre just gonna give the cliche response im expecting.
Inform us all on what I'm trying to be.


Can't handle what answers?

Seems that you can type all day about groups, but it doesn't really matter unless it sounds good.

Therefore, show me how your groups sound. I think it's a better assumption you have no music, don't group because you don't get it, now need to ask about groups which is first year business.


Your prob better off in the noob section.


I'll be waiting for a proper response. Audio talks your bs walks.
Old 9th October 2015
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
KODID's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by teknatronik View Post
Inform us all on what I'm trying to be.


Can't handle what answers?

Seems that you can type all day about groups, but it doesn't really matter unless it sounds good.

Therefore, show me how your groups sound. I think it's a better assumption you have no music, don't group because you don't get it, now need to ask about groups which is first year business.


Your prob better off in the noob section.


I'll be waiting for a proper response. Audio talks your bs walks.
Can somebody explain to this guy what a theory discussion is? Its what people with actual brains do. They talk about what they dedicate their lives to. Its called passion and actually caring. Youre the bitter type of person who hasnt made it anywhere so he sits online and rants it all out here. I genuinely like talking about production because I live it, everyday. I dont have to prove anything to you I know what I can do.

If you can tell me one thing negative about hearing other people talk about workflows then go right ahead. The only people who think that they know everything and have nothing to learn by hearing other people out are the naive idiots going nowhere with it. Thats what people who are actually reaching out to learn more do. They talk about EVERYTHING. And then when theyre done learning about it, they keep talking about it.

If you dont like discussing this kind of thing just for the sake of discussion you might as well quit now buddy.

I dont know how many more times I need to say this, but your negativity has killed anything in here anyway so whatever. WHAT EXACTLY do you expect me to post audio of, theres no fking question that requires you to hear an audio sample. Show me the question where you need audio. If I posted an audio clip it wouldnt even make sense to this topic. Im asking how other people work, it doesnt matter how I work, I know how i work. This is about gaining other peoples perspective. And again, if you cant understand the benefit in that, give up. I get everything I need to know about grouping, if you cant interpret that by the OP then open your eyes. But I dont know what other people are going to say about it, so thats why I bring it up. And thats how you learn things you may not have ever ran into. You either get that or you dont. Its not my problem either way.
Old 14th November 2015
  #23
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I'm starting to think more about this topic. Right now I have my kick separate on its own...ive pretty much always done it that way...then i have snares/claps group, then a hats group....i'm really wondering what the advantage is to grouping all of them together in an EDM context....because some people seem to do that.....I hjave other groups for non percussion tracks.....but I'm not sure if grouping all the percussion tracks together makes sense......jsut because they are all percussion.....like i said earlier...i think it s better to group things based on their frequency content...and then the master level is where you glue everything together......

but maybe its better to glue all the drums (kick included) together before the master track stage...idk.....because it presents sidechaining issues....groupin your drums all together....because one of the main advantages to grouping things tofether is you can duck them all.....but if your include your kick in their then you kick will be gettting that same ducking that your hats and snares are getting.

and if you are alreadyy ducking your snares and hates in their own groups....does it really have any benefit to having an additional layer of uniform ducking over kick +snares+hats....beefore they all hit the master glue

idk idk........because the kick is such an important element.....i dont know if it should be grouped in to anything before it hits the master track.
Old 23rd November 2015
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soulstar606 View Post
I'm starting to think more about this topic. Right now I have my kick separate on its own...ive pretty much always done it that way...then i have snares/claps group, then a hats group....i'm really wondering what the advantage is to grouping all of them together in an EDM context....because some people seem to do that.....I hjave other groups for non percussion tracks.....but I'm not sure if grouping all the percussion tracks together makes sense......jsut because they are all percussion.....like i said earlier...i think it s better to group things based on their frequency content...and then the master level is where you glue everything together......

but maybe its better to glue all the drums (kick included) together before the master track stage...idk.....because it presents sidechaining issues....groupin your drums all together....because one of the main advantages to grouping things tofether is you can duck them all.....but if your include your kick in their then you kick will be gettting that same ducking that your hats and snares are getting.

and if you are alreadyy ducking your snares and hates in their own groups....does it really have any benefit to having an additional layer of uniform ducking over kick +snares+hats....beefore they all hit the master glue

idk idk........because the kick is such an important element.....i dont know if it should be grouped in to anything before it hits the master track.
Pretty much summed up the entire mindset behind why I thought to ask people haha. Too many ways to do things so it doesnt hurt to hear how other people go about it.
Old 23rd November 2015
  #25
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Originally Posted by KODID View Post
Pretty much summed up the entire mindset behind why I thought to ask people haha. Too many ways to do things so it doesnt hurt to hear how other people go about it.
ive been grouping the percussion actually sinc ei made this post...and i think it is actually beneficial........but you just dont want to hit it very heavy with comp....but just a bit....just to give that same pump that everything else gets.
Old 23rd November 2015
  #26
"But does anyone see any benefit in grouping the high hats on their own" - Really? how many high hats are you using in a track?

"And the kick on its own?" - A group of one? Sounds like my social life lately but that's about it.

Is this a language issue or something else?

Oh I see, this is the electronic music forum. Never mind….
Old 23rd November 2015
  #27
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Sebastian N's Avatar
 

I usually have 3-4 hihats, maybe some other shaker or something else that might act like a hihat. Not that uncommon. Plus, half the time, i might have 2 kick tracks playing (not on the same beat) so i don't get how this would be so uncommon.

But again, there is no right way of doing things. People mix things differently so whatever method gets you there
Old 23rd November 2015
  #28
Gear Addict
 

No groups here, each track is individually processed then everything gets split out in pairs on the way to the summing mixer and then dynamics processing happens in two stages so I don't smash it hard... In the end the drums tracks need to sound cohesive, so having buss groups of Hats and then kicks etc doesn't give anymore control in my opinion. But everyone has a different approach on how to get there - the end results matter, not the process
Old 23rd November 2015
  #29
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you are right. splitting all your drums will often make them sound like they don't really belong together. one way i work around this is by having a reverb aux with a drum room reverb on it (or some other kind of short room setting) and send a bit of all the groups there, maybe some more than other, depending on the material. this, plus parallel processing of the drum groups through some heavy saturation/compression (tape emus or some colourful compressor smashing everything) will make them sound like they're from the same kit. it doesn't take much of either the reverb or the saturation/comp to be blended in and most times, you won't really hear either effect as being obvious, but the end result will sound cohesive.

and TUNING them. can't emphasise this enough.
Old 14th March 2018
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by KODID View Post
Can somebody explain to this guy what a theory discussion is? Its what people with actual brains do. They talk about what they dedicate their lives to. Its called passion and actually caring. Youre the bitter type of person who hasnt made it anywhere so he sits online and rants it all out here. I genuinely like talking about production because I live it, everyday. I dont have to prove anything to you I know what I can do.

If you can tell me one thing negative about hearing other people talk about workflows then go right ahead. The only people who think that they know everything and have nothing to learn by hearing other people out are the naive idiots going nowhere with it. Thats what people who are actually reaching out to learn more do. They talk about EVERYTHING. And then when theyre done learning about it, they keep talking about it.

If you dont like discussing this kind of thing just for the sake of discussion you might as well quit now buddy.

I dont know how many more times I need to say this, but your negativity has killed anything in here anyway so whatever. WHAT EXACTLY do you expect me to post audio of, theres no fking question that requires you to hear an audio sample. Show me the question where you need audio. If I posted an audio clip it wouldnt even make sense to this topic. Im asking how other people work, it doesnt matter how I work, I know how i work. This is about gaining other peoples perspective. And again, if you cant understand the benefit in that, give up. I get everything I need to know about grouping, if you cant interpret that by the OP then open your eyes. But I dont know what other people are going to say about it, so thats why I bring it up. And thats how you learn things you may not have ever ran into. You either get that or you dont. Its not my problem either way.
I think you were on drugs during this time. Lol
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