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Roland V Drums with BFD instead of real Drums in the Studio???
Old 25th June 2006
  #1
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Andi Rauscher's Avatar
 

Roland V Drums with BFD instead of real Drums in the Studio???

Hi all!

What do you think of a Roland V Drum Set with Mesh Heads, going into BFD instead of a real Drum Kit?

Because of space and noise matters I am not able to reacord a real Drumset in my Studio; so I thought this may be a good idea since I already get very good results with BFD, but we have to program it with a keyboard and the mouse.... not very drum-like!

If I had a Midi Set, a real Drummer would be able to play it... no more programming!
and editing is easier as well....


...just looking for opinions and ideas!

Cheers, Andi
Old 25th June 2006
  #2
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octatonic's Avatar
Our experience is more with DFHS and Roland V Drums.
It works great UNTIL you have to do any quantising.
To get the same level of control there ends up being a lot of controller messages that might be slightly ahead or behind the beat.
In Logic it is not possible to quantise all of this without it affecting the controller messages.
You can choose to not quantise the controller messages but this means they will be out of time to the audio.
You can choose to shift the controller messages with the notes but this will mean they occur exactly at the same time as the notes, which may not be desirable either.
This means you have to edit all the not information and the controller messages by hand, which can be laborious and time consuming if the drums are in any way complicated.
Also, if you are working with other drummers they might be resistant to the idea- VDrums do not feel exactly like a drum kit and can take a while to get your head around.

JR
Old 25th June 2006
  #3
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The top of the line V Drums would be the ones to get. The white heads are much better than the rubber. Alisha Keys article in the June Edition of EQ mention they love the BFD drums and they use them in their studio all the time. Having the BFD saves you a lot of time in the studio since you don't have to spend the time setting up the drums, settings the signal levels etc. Plus you can double the snare, kick or any other part of the drums to get a bigger sound. Plus of course putting the Ludwig and Pearl and mixing to, together is cool.
Old 25th June 2006
  #4
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Andi Rauscher's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by richmondjames
In Logic it is not possible to quantise all of this without it affecting the controller messages.

JR
I work with Pro Tools HD7.
Old 25th June 2006
  #5
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Andi Rauscher's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revelation
The top of the line V Drums would be the ones to get.
Shure, I am talking about something like a TD12 Set.

http://www.rolandmusik.de/ftp/pub/fotos/TD-12K_BK.jpg

I think a TD20 is too much, since I do not need the Roland Sounds. And I think the Kit is the same???
Old 25th June 2006
  #6
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It's fantastic. The only minor annoyance, this is for the drummer more so, is that the hi-hat controller is not always 100% accuratly interpreted by BFD when opening the hats. Apparantly DKFH dont have this problem and BFD have accepted it is down to them and they're on it.

But for realsitic kit sounds without all the agro of micing up a real kit - it's damn damn close. To close to call IMHO.

Paul
Old 25th June 2006
  #7
Gear Head
 

what controller info do you mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by richmondjames
Our experience is more with DFHS and Roland V Drums.
It works great UNTIL you have to do any quantising.
To get the same level of control there ends up being a lot of controller messages that might be slightly ahead or behind the beat.
In Logic it is not possible to quantise all of this without it affecting the controller messages.
You can choose to not quantise the controller messages but this means they will be out of time to the audio.
You can choose to shift the controller messages with the notes but this will mean they occur exactly at the same time as the notes, which may not be desirable either.
This means you have to edit all the not information and the controller messages by hand, which can be laborious and time consuming if the drums are in any way complicated.

JR
hi

when you say controller info, what are you referring to exactly?

also - have you noticed any midi delays in triggering the sounds from DFH/BFD which were distracting for drummers?
Old 25th June 2006
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elektroglide
hi

when you say controller info, what are you referring to exactly?

also - have you noticed any midi delays in triggering the sounds from DFH/BFD which were distracting for drummers?
Midi delays are based on your latecy settings on the soundcard. I use the Lynx 2 and get 2m/s latecy. So there is no latecy.

As for the hi-hat problem - it's more to do with when the drummer is playing a pattern and may open the hi hats via the pedal but it sometimes will not trigger.

Paul
Old 25th June 2006
  #9
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elektroglide
hi

when you say controller info, what are you referring to exactly?

also - have you noticed any midi delays in triggering the sounds from DFH/BFD which were distracting for drummers?
Hiya,

Expression, aftertouch data and such.
Think hi-hat controller.
Often you want to open the hihat just before you strike it, or just after.
If you quanitise it then the controller info will occur exactly on the beat.
If you quantise the note info but not the controller data then the controller data is out of time with the note info. It sucks.

Also setting up polyphonic mute groups for sampler instruments is a PITA.
Big logic environment required- not possible in an other sequencer.
This only applies if you want to go outside the basic setup that DFH and BFD allow- we like to use triggered samples and non-rhythmic info from the drums.
FWIW the Peavey SP sampler does polyphonic mute groups and is easy to setup.
Used one for years and it rocked.
Old 25th June 2006
  #10
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andi Rauscher
I work with Pro Tools HD7.
Hi Andi,

Me too, but any midi is done in Logic and projects moved to PT to mix.
I wouldn't do any midi drumming in PT myself- not flexible enough- but you might find it fine.
Best advice is to see if you can hire a vdrums for a weekend and give it a try.
If you need any help with setup, PM me.

I really wouldn't use VDrums as the only way to record drums.
Get in close with a local studio capable of it- negotiate a good rate based on volume, tracks drums there and mix on your system.

JR
Old 25th June 2006
  #11
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blenn
Midi delays are based on your latecy settings on the soundcard. I use the Lynx 2 and get 2m/s latecy. So there is no latecy.

As for the hi-hat problem - it's more to do with when the drummer is playing a pattern and may open the hi hats via the pedal but it sometimes will not trigger.

Paul
Ehrm, actually that is core audio/asio delay.
Midi delay can be up to 10ms on top of this.
It depends on what modules/hardware you are using- for example the early synclavier versions had 20-30 ms of varience.
Apparently Trevor Horn had the Synclavier guys rework the OS to get that delay below 2ms because Chris Squire (YES bassist) was annoyed by it.
All midi devices has some additional varience or latency.
Old 25th June 2006
  #12
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Knastratt's Avatar
 

Just be sure to monitor the drums from the Roland drum brain to prevent latency issues. If you have latency free monitor system, that is. I find even 4 ms additional ITB latency annoying.

Works great over here.

Be well - Pär
Old 25th June 2006
  #13
Gear Head
 

latency is a drag

so how come noone has come up with a fast interface to convert analog trigger signals from e-drums into ITB sampler/BDF/DFH signals?

the sound modules from the likes of Alesis/Roland/Yamaha/D-Drum etc all trigger their digital sounds very quickly... but none of them offer a NON-MIDI (!!!!) interface to trigger the new big bad boy Romplers. Seems crazy to me... everyone seems to have to do these stupid workarounds (such as monitoring from the sound modules), and drummers are the ones who need low/zero latency more than anyone (ok apart from vocalists). MIDI is simply not able to do this, with conversion times, single instruction bandwidth etc etc.

if anyone knows of a device which takes an e-drum trigger and converts it via USB/Firewire WITHOUT going through sign language conversion, please let us know!

or what do you think is the best compromise currently available (for example which proprietory sound module most readily allows user samples to be loaded? this would allow BDF/DFH sounds to be sampled and then triggered within the module).

yes - acoustic drums have their advantages and avoid these issues, but that's not the point...
Old 25th June 2006
  #14
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elektroglide
so how come noone has come up with a fast interface to convert analog trigger signals from e-drums into ITB sampler/BDF/DFH signals?

the sound modules from the likes of Alesis/Roland/Yamaha/D-Drum etc all trigger their digital sounds very quickly... but none of them offer a NON-MIDI (!!!!) interface to trigger the new big bad boy Romplers. Seems crazy to me... everyone seems to have to do these stupid workarounds (such as monitoring from the sound modules), and drummers are the ones who need low/zero latency more than anyone (ok apart from vocalists). MIDI is simply not able to do this, with conversion times, single instruction bandwidth etc etc.

if anyone knows of a device which takes an e-drum trigger and converts it via USB/Firewire WITHOUT going through sign language conversion, please let us know!

or what do you think is the best compromise currently available (for example which proprietory sound module most readily allows user samples to be loaded? this would allow BDF/DFH sounds to be sampled and then triggered within the module).

yes - acoustic drums have their advantages and avoid these issues, but that's not the point...
Hi,

It doesn't work that way.
Even if a keyboard has USB it is still using the midi protocol, even if you are not using the DIN connectors.
There are devices that allow triggering.
Roland do a pad, i believe it is called SPD-S or something similar.

Simply sampling the BFD/DFHS sounds is not going to give you the variations/velocity layers/mic ambience. This is the beauty of these units- sampling them would be a step backwards.

The way I like to do it is to use the TD20 sounds for the tracking, a midi track for the recording and then tailor the DFHS sounds afterwards.

JR
Old 25th June 2006
  #15
Gear Head
 

developers' heads up

Quote:
Originally Posted by richmondjames
Hi,

It doesn't work that way.
Even if a keyboard has USB it is still using the midi protocol, even if you are not using the DIN connectors.
There are devices that allow triggering.
Roland do a pad, i believe it is called SPD-S or something similar.

Simply sampling the BFD/DFHS sounds is not going to give you the variations/velocity layers/mic ambience. This is the beauty of these units- sampling them would be a step backwards.

The way I like to do it is to use the TD20 sounds for the tracking, a midi track for the recording and then tailor the DFHS sounds afterwards.

JR

so it's time for a new hi-speed protocol then... it should still be possible to get a signal into the computer in the same format that Logic etc use AFTER they've converted the normal MIDI input signal... since the DAW software allows for simultaneous events unlike MIDI, they don't use MIDI ITB...

if no manufacturer is already working on this, now would be a good time to start - if they nail this issue with a 21st century trigger-to-computer interface, they'd sell like hot cakes I suspect, bypassing modules, MIDI, and an aeon of latency - every drum trigger out there could suddenly sound great - and be usable!

I thought the Yamaha and D-Drum allowed for user samples to be loaded - obviously, multisampling would be needed for usable BFD sounds and then it's a PITA - I was thinking more for live use which is the real kicker - for studio use, these issues are just a matter of how much screwdriver/editing time is needed afterwards.

your method with module monitoring/midi recording/DFHS makes sense otherwise

here's hoping...
Old 25th June 2006
  #16
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elektroglide
so it's time for a new hi-speed protocol then... it should still be possible to get a signal into the computer in the same format that Logic etc use AFTER they've converted the normal MIDI input signal... since the DAW software allows for simultaneous events unlike MIDI, they don't use MIDI ITB...

if no manufacturer is already working on this, now would be a good time to start - if they nail this issue with a 21st century trigger-to-computer interface, they'd sell like hot cakes I suspect, bypassing modules, MIDI, and an aeon of latency - every drum trigger out there could suddenly sound great - and be usable!

I thought the Yamaha and D-Drum allowed for user samples to be loaded - obviously, multiampling would be needed for usable BFD sounds and then it's a PITA - I was thinking more for live use which is the real kicker - for studio use, these issues are just a matter of how much screwdriver/editing time is needed afterwards.

your method with module monitoring/midi recording/DFHS makes sense otherwise

here's hoping...
Ehrm, not really.
Midi itself is VERY low latency, virtually nothing.
The problem is that it is a serial protocol.
The more complex the messages the longer they take to hear.

The NEW protocol, or the closest we get is MLAN from yamaha.
Really catching on, isn't it?

HD-Midi has been discussed but nothing has happened yet.

JR
Old 26th June 2006
  #17
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Bounce's Avatar
I get less than 5 ms with my 1.33 ghz powerbook and it works great for e-drumming. DFHS is KILLER!. I have a nice DW kit on my studio but also have done killer drum tracks with my drumkat rig and DFHS when I was beta testing for DFHS. It's really great. They've done a fine job! If your computer is fast, you can use midi for e-drumming with it. Keep it under 6ms latency or you'll really feel it if you're a drummer. You don't get the interaction with the room, of course, but the control of bleed into specific mics and being able to change drum and cymbal choices laer is really nice sometimes :-) I use my real kit most of the time but wouldn't have a problem doing tracks for someone with DFHS or such if desired. Very cool.
Old 26th June 2006
  #18
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Matthew Murray's Avatar
 

Shameless self promotion -- if you're thinking of grabbing one, you might be interested in my roland v-drum set in the classifieds right now. Trying to sell fast so the price is pretty damned low. I use it with DFHS, and it's quite spectacular. If only I had enough room to keep the little thing.
Old 26th June 2006
  #19
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yumdrum's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andi Rauscher
Hi all!

What do you think of a Roland V Drum Set with Mesh Heads, going into BFD instead of a real Drum Kit?

Because of space and noise matters I am not able to reacord a real Drumset in my Studio; so I thought this may be a good idea since I already get very good results with BFD, but we have to program it with a keyboard and the mouse.... not very drum-like!

If I had a Midi Set, a real Drummer would be able to play it... no more programming!
and editing is easier as well....


...just looking for opinions and ideas!

Cheers, Andi


I know your problem. I have a protools setup in a townhouse myself. I also have an acoustic kit and a ddrum electronic kit. I can record the real drums in the daytime when everyone is at work and the ddrums for nighttime tracking and rehearsing via headphones.
If it was a project that am taking seriously it's the yamaha RCs all the way, although the ddrum4 brain sounds are pretty good right out of the box. I also have triggers for the brain on the acoustic kit when I want to blend drum sounds,
You can get the ghosted notes, accents and nuances on a pad set that's almost impossible to tap out on a keyboard.
I am a drummer and I don't mind playing the pads, it's just not quite the same.
good luck!
Old 26th June 2006
  #20
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
the sound modules from the likes of Alesis/Roland/Yamaha/D-Drum etc all trigger their digital sounds very quickly... but none of them offer a NON-MIDI (!!!!) interface to trigger the new big bad boy Romplers. Seems crazy to me... everyone seems to have to do these stupid workarounds (such as monitoring from the sound modules), and drummers are the ones who need low/zero latency more than anyone (ok apart from vocalists). MIDI is simply not able to do this, with conversion times, single instruction bandwidth etc etc.

if anyone knows of a device which takes an e-drum trigger and converts it via USB/Firewire WITHOUT going through sign language conversion, please let us know!
MIDI latency isn't really the problem.. the difficulty is that, so far, the only vendors that have come up with triggering beyond the basic single-shot variety (in other words, decent hat controllers, multi zone cymbals and snares, cymbal chokes..) are the ones that want to sell you an expensive drum brain with onboard sounds.

Probably the fastest solution you'll get right now is an RME PCI card with the Multiface box (audio & MIDI, no USB or Firewire involved).
Old 26th June 2006
  #21
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Push845's Avatar
 

I used the roland td-10 for 2 years before investing in a Pearl xbr set.
The biggest problem is the double triggering you get while tracking. No matter how you set the triggers, there was always something miss-firing. For the investment, aim towards live drums and mikes.
Old 26th June 2006
  #22
Gear Head
 

cut out the MIDI man

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus_FX
MIDI latency isn't really the problem.. the difficulty is that, so far, the only vendors that have come up with triggering beyond the basic single-shot variety (in other words, decent hat controllers, multi zone cymbals and snares, cymbal chokes..) are the ones that want to sell you an expensive drum brain with onboard sounds.

Probably the fastest solution you'll get right now is an RME PCI card with the Multiface box (audio & MIDI, no USB or Firewire involved).
until one of the makers of the drum romplers brings out a simple trigger-to-computer interface with a cardbus or PCI connection ; )

you know it makes sense...

p.s. funnily enough I need a multiface anyway to bump up my Fireface output count. hmmm...
Old 27th June 2006
  #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus_FX
the only vendors that have come up with triggering beyond the basic single-shot variety (in other words, decent hat controllers, multi zone cymbals and snares, cymbal chokes..) are the ones that want to sell you an expensive drum brain with onboard sounds.
So true.
I think BFD and DFHS are a league above, but anyone wanting to get into them has to invest $$$ into a drum brain they are only using to translate between pads/triggers and the virtual drum software.
I think Roland et al should dump their pitiful sounds and sign up with the software sampler companies (FXpansion and Toontrack for example).
Old 27th June 2006
  #24
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True North's Avatar
 

I am a drummer and drums are a pain in the a$$ to record for many reasons. That being said there is no replacing the sound of a decently recorded kit if you want to create original sounding parts to your music.

If I were you I wouldn't be paying a premium for the Roland V Drums as there are a couple of companies that liscense the Woven head technology and sell for MUCH cheaper.

I owned a set of Hart Dynamic drums which were every bit as good as the Rolnnd V's. The other company is Pintech and they also use the woven head technology. You will end up saving yourself a lot of money with either of two aforementioned companies.

Given the choice I would always choose acoustic drums over electronic if possible. Good Luck
Old 27th June 2006
  #25
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Andi Rauscher's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by True North
I owned a set of Hart Dynamic drums which were every bit as good as the Rolnnd V's. The other company is Pintech and they also use the woven head technology. You will end up saving yourself a lot of money with either of two aforementioned companies.
Thanks for this input, I will check these out!
just found a TD12 Set I was looking for on ebay, in my city, very funny...

Thanks for your input, everyone!
keep it comin´

Cheers, Andi
Old 27th June 2006
  #26
It works great for the drums but I personally think that triggering is still pretty **** for cymbals. I wouldnt use a completely triggered kit if I could help it for that simple reason.
Old 27th June 2006
  #27
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Andi Rauscher's Avatar
 

is anyone out there using a Roland TD12 Module with BFD?????
Old 27th June 2006
  #28
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ramjet's Avatar
 

hi

woud it work ok if i was just triggering a kick, snare and toms using triggers on a real kit so that i would have a choice when it comes to mix down and just record reaul cymbals. is this possible as i am looking at this option as well. would only having this much info being tranmitted make the whoole thing work better

cheers ramjet
Old 27th June 2006
  #29
Gear Addict
 

Andi - yes, plenty of folks are using the 12 with BFD.. any specifics you're wondering about?

Ramjet -- yes, that's a good solution if you want flexibility on the kicks and toms and have a decent acoustic space and mics to get your cymbal sound. Sampled cymbals triggered from e-drums still have some disadvantages compared to the real thing. A Roland TMC6 trigger converter will do the job, Clavia make a similar trigger system that will attach to a real kit. Or you can just record the whole kit live, and then use drum replacer software (Drumagog, Drum Rehab) to generate MIDI to trigger your drum sample player.

Quote:
until one of the makers of the drum romplers brings out a simple trigger-to-computer interface with a cardbus or PCI connection ; )

you know it makes sense...
Nothing I can say on that at the moment, other than to note that there are still a few makers of electronic drum hardware that -don't- have a vested interest in selling big, expensive drum brains.

Quote:
I think Roland et al should dump their pitiful sounds and sign up with the software sampler companies (FXpansion and Toontrack for example).
Roland are a hardware company, and the brain-in-a-box approach is still better for less technical folk. I suspect a brain with the necessary CPU grunt to play back samples of the quality of BFD or DFHS would cost more than a TD-20.. you're basically looking at a Muse Receptor with extra front panel controls and trigger hardware. OTOH, we're probably only a couple of years away from a $500 SBC board with enough power to run EZDrummer and a couple of GB of Flash storage, and at that point, they'll have to watch out.
Old 27th June 2006
  #30
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Andi Rauscher's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus_FX
Andi - yes, plenty of folks are using the 12 with BFD.. any specifics you're wondering about?
Angus, thanks for your presence here in this thread, this is really great customer support!!!

I´m just wondering if these things will be "plug and play" if I get such a V-Drum Set for 3000 Euros or if I´ll run in any problems I never thought of before!

But i the 12 module outputs General Midi Information, I see no reason why it should NOT work...

Thanks!
really appreciated!
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