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"people who play electronic drums are not real drummers"
Old 11th January 2011
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takman View Post
i bet 98 percent of the people out there cant tell the difference between a drum track recorded with E-drums, using a good quality program like addictive drums....and a recording of the real thing...
This is true however I'd also bet any five year old can feel the difference between a track recorded live with a great drummer and a recording that is all overdubs.
Old 11th January 2011
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takman View Post
i bet 98 percent of the people out there cant tell the difference between a drum track recorded with E-drums, using a good quality program like addictive drums....and a recording of the real thing.

And the technology and sound of these programs is only getting better.
But for the 2% who can, real drums utterly blow that e-stuff away.

I played vDrums for several years due to space constraints & babies. It really messed up my technique when I came back to a "real" kit.

My brain had to be retrained that a 14" floor tom requires more energy to get that head & airspace moving than a 12" rack tom. Similarly, I had to re-train myself to lay off the cymbals since I could no longer just "turn them down."

vDrums are an impressive technical achievement, but they're only good for demos or when you're playing on a track that just needs a TR-808 patchset on it, for instance.

But for a demo, yeah, they're great. Plug in your stereo outs to a board and you're all set.

My $.02
Old 19th January 2011
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazetar View Post
p.s. Put electronic triggers and a drum brain on an acoustic drumset and the audience won't even know.
This ^^

whether on stage or recording, e-drums using good software....only professionally trained ears will be able to tell the difference....

Honestly, for myself.....if the production of the song is done decently, i cant tell the difference.
Old 19th January 2011
  #34
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Can't say I've heard of that statement! But I use electronic drums in my student house for obvious reasons. Getting back home to play my Tama kit is always rewarding though
Old 19th January 2011
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
This is just not true.
about the electric/acoustic thing?

are you sure this is not true? because if you give somebody an acoustic instrument who has not studied or practiced on it, only on an electric he for sure can't play as good on it... slip people who only have learned to play on Nord leads a real piano there's a difference, slip a purely electric player an acoustic there's a difference, slip a pure electronics drummer an acoustic and for sure he doesn't have the tone control or the tricks to get all kinds of different sounds from it.

an acoustic instrument has a way larger complexity and you have to learn how it reacts & resonates also to the room you happen to be in to really get the most of it.
Old 19th January 2011
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batchainpuller78 View Post
about the electric/acoustic thing?

are you sure this is not true? because if you give somebody an acoustic instrument who has not studied or practiced on it, only on an electric he for sure can't play as good on it... slip people who only have learned to play on Nord leads a real piano there's a difference, slip a purely electric player an acoustic there's a difference, slip a pure electronics drummer an acoustic and for sure he doesn't have the tone control or the tricks to get all kinds of different sounds from it.

an acoustic instrument has a way larger complexity and you have to learn how it reacts & resonates also to the room you happen to be in to really get the most of it.
The opposite really....throughout out my 39 years as a career player it's been my experience that electric players will do just fine with an acoustic when called upon to switch duties. It's much more often the acoustic guy that will struggle badly with an electric.
Old 19th January 2011
  #37
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ah well yes the opposite is also true, certainly with guitar players.. i've noticed that as well.

But often Electric players will struggle already with the different feel and tension (same with piano, suddenly their fingers get stuck on the heavier action after playing lightweight plastic keyboards all the time) and they will not get the tone from it that a true acoustic player does... I'm not talking switching duty for strumming a bit in the back in the band... I'm talking full expression... now SRV did pretty well on that 12 string acoustic heh and in real life I don't know many people who don't have an acoustic laying around even if electric is their main thing, but really there is a difference especially with all the nuances and tone and resonances and acoustics going on.
I mean electric instruments ****ed up whole band dynamics..
Old 19th January 2011
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batchainpuller78 View Post
ah well yes the opposite is also true, certainly with guitar players.. i've noticed that as well.

But often Electric players will struggle already with the different feel and tension (same with piano, suddenly their fingers get stuck on the heavier action after playing lightweight plastic keyboards all the time) and they will not get the tone from it that a true acoustic player does... I'm not talking switching duty for strumming a bit in the back in the band... I'm talking full expression... now SRV did pretty well on that 12 string acoustic heh and in real life I don't know many people who don't have an acoustic laying around even if electric is their main thing, but really there is a difference especially with all the nuances and tone and resonances and acoustics going on.
I mean electric instruments ****ed up whole band dynamics..
if you have a really good drummer, it may only take them a couple hours to re-adjust when going from electronic to acoustic or vise versa. Its not that big of a deal.
Old 19th January 2011
  #39
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well sure... and I don't think there are many professionals yet that have come into this world of music by just studying and learning to play on an electric drumkit... however they might be in the works today or tomorrow.

Secondly also really depends what kind of music is the subject.

As an example Medeski, Martin & Wood, give these guys nord leads & a Yamaha drum, sure they would still be able to make fine music, but severe limited in the expression & tone they would be able to reach.
The drummer uses every inch of his skins and drumkit to create sounds and feels...
Have a pop band (who might even rely pure on the sound of triggered drums & electric guitar effects) to play all acoustic and you would get some mediocre sounding version versus a band that would bring that song that has years & years of playing acoustic instruments in their pockets.

Yes often the switch is not THAT hard, but there is a difference and there can be a huge difference as well.
Old 19th January 2011
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batchainpuller78 View Post
ah well yes the opposite is also true, certainly with guitar players.. i've noticed that as well.

But often Electric players will struggle already with the different feel and tension (same with piano, suddenly their fingers get stuck on the heavier action after playing lightweight plastic keyboards all the time) and they will not get the tone from it that a true acoustic player does... I'm not talking switching duty for strumming a bit in the back in the band... I'm talking full expression... now SRV did pretty well on that 12 string acoustic heh and in real life I don't know many people who don't have an acoustic laying around even if electric is their main thing, but really there is a difference especially with all the nuances and tone and resonances and acoustics going on.
I mean electric instruments ****ed up whole band dynamics..
Do you actually play? You sound like your writing as a third party observer.
Old 19th January 2011
  #41
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Yes I am!
Old 19th January 2011
  #42
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well yes observer that's me, long way back in school you would see a playground full of kids and a tall guy in black coat overseeing that playground, not really interacting, just taking it in and wondering. heh

but yes I do play, drums, guitar & bass actually and other stuff, quite the keyboard collector but not a great keyboard player.
And some of these comments I make are from experiences in the studio, which I've owned for 12 years and being exposed to top notch musicians and the lesser kind which are omnipresent.
I'd count myself as the latter myself although I have a talent for it but I never made a choice... you can shove me any instrument in my hands and I can make it work in a matter of days or weeks.
And I'm a music listener and collector as well.

what's wrong with the observers point of view?

And as stated on the previous page I do not agree with the thread title, but I have observed that there is a difference between electric and acoustic playing.
If you can't hear or see it, look harder.
Old 19th January 2011
  #43
there's always gonna be this kind of crap flying around with the purists.


if it works ****ing use it, damn the purists.



results are all that matters in the end.
Old 19th January 2011
  #44
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another way to look at it... the electric drum can make somebody who can play a beat sound great.. now have him play on an acoustic drum, wholymoly there can be a difference.
Now take the awful cheap drumkit that's in the back of most people's houses who ventured into drums at one point or another in his life.
A true great drummer who knows his acoustics can sit behind it and make it sound good (without fiddeling with it) 'wouldn't say great' but good, whilst in the hands of any other player it's gonna be ugh.
This can only happen from someone who has control of acoustics and all the little nuances to hit something.
This will not come from someone who does not have that feel or experience and playing electric will not develop that.

Same with Daniel Barenboim and his masterclasses, world class players visit him, yet with one hand whilst explaining he can make a chord sound fuller or resonate more than the student who tries it with full attention.
what other than a complete understanding of feel and acoustics and how to strike an instrument would make him do that?
Ever saw professional piano teaching in classical music which is the apex in acoustic composing? A lot of effort goes in to learn how to exactly strike the instrument for the required effect... Again acoustic instruments!!! so unbelievable and so devoid in our modern music world.
And not one electric player will just get there at that level if he hasn't studied and trained hard on an acoustic instrument.
Old 19th January 2011
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitman View Post
Yes I am!
No you are not!
Old 7th February 2011
  #46
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A good drummer can play on any kit and still sound good, wether its an electric midi kit with kontact or a tama classic.....

And as far as samples go a good engineer can make a sampled drum track sound just like the real thing, and not even the best ears in the buisness can tell the difference....
Old 8th February 2011
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sameal View Post
there's always gonna be this kind of crap flying around with the purists.


if it works ****ing use it, damn the purists.



results are all that matters in the end.
Awesome.....Just replace the musicians completely.. They can't play and won't pay anyway right? I have always wanted to hear the engineers record. Haven't you?
Old 8th February 2011
  #48
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I'd love to see a pianist try to get a sound out of a nord lead.
Old 9th February 2011
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainchild View Post
I'd love to see a pianist try to get a sound out of a nord lead.
Well, the nord lead doesnt have weighted keys. Synths with weighted keys nearly have the same feel and characteristics as a real piano.

The mesh heads for electronic drums ( the good ones at least) feel pretty darn close to the real heads.

slap a mesh head on an acoustic shell.....pretty close to the real thing in terms of feel. in terms of sound, yes an electronic setup isn't up to par with the real thing just yet...but its getting there.
Old 9th February 2011
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takman View Post
The mesh heads for electronic drums ( the good ones at least) feel pretty darn close to the real heads.
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with this. I have never played a mesh head that felt to me like a real head.

What I mean is, if I were to close my eyes and strike the head with a drum stick, I could tell right away if it was mesh or mylar. And I don't just mean from the sound. The rebound and feeling of mesh is different than mylar.
Old 9th February 2011
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
Awesome.....Just replace the musicians completely.. They can't play and won't pay anyway right? I have always wanted to hear the engineers record. Haven't you?


it's all about using what you have.

there are so many bands i know of caught up in themselves with not being able to find a drummer, or a bass player, or a keyboard player or whatever that they never get anything done because they won't use what they have. there are some of them that would turn down a drummer using an electric kit.

who's to say these bands couldn't make a temporary electronic solution to the problem and then later on down the road find what there looking for by actually getting out there, playing and communicating.


and that's what I'm getting at. there to caught up in "oh that's an electronic drum kit. it will never be the same. no i won't have an electronic kit in my band no way"


you take your lumps and roll with it. maybe later down the road it will sort itself out.


p.s. i DO wish i could replace the musicians with electronics.
Old 10th February 2011
  #52
Quote:
Originally Posted by sameal View Post
p.s. i DO wish i could replace the musicians with electronics.
I play live every few weeks and one of the FOH sound guys hates acoustic drums. He's always wishing for a Roland V-Drum kit or a Pearl Electronic or anything but instruments that he can't control.

It's all about controlling someone else, or eliminating people altogether, just to get a particular sound. It's not about making a group of people—who are generally having a great time—sound good.

This is part of what makes bands' live recordings so nice. It's real, warts and all.
Old 11th February 2011
  #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB_Photo View Post
I play live every few weeks and one of the FOH sound guys hates acoustic drums. He's always wishing for a Roland V-Drum kit or a Pearl Electronic or anything but instruments that he can't control.

It's all about controlling someone else, or eliminating people altogether, just to get a particular sound. It's not about making a group of people—who are generally having a great time—sound good.

This is part of what makes bands' live recordings so nice. It's real, warts and all.

agreed.

when a group of people get together and it works, it is pure magic if you can do that sort of a thing.

but when you can't, like myself, you replace everyone with whatever you can find and make something entirely different from it.

i love live recordings. there so much more raw most of the time.
Old 11th February 2011
  #54
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Bah

Whether you are a drummer or not is in the brain and the neurological transmission between that lump and your limbs. We may go even further and wonder whether one who plays on a Mapex kit is a "real" drummer?
or does it have to be DW? The direct tentative feedback and sound which comes on both e-drums and acoustic such should be enough. Otherwise we could discuss setups, choices of skin, hardware, maple/birch/mahogany/oak, which demands a certain adjustment of you were to make the switch. It's an emotional thing, so I guess only you know whether you're a drummer or not.

In most bands there are drummers and other musicians. Many guitar players cannot even play a broken quintuplet in 11/16 while accenting every seventh note, and they still complain...
Old 11th February 2011
  #55
ysf
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Having played acoustic drums for 28 years and electrics for 23 years. I hate to even see this ignorant posting.

Playing drums on a high end vdrum kit vs playing an acoustic kit really is no different.

The technology is so far advanced over the original edrums its not even funny.

I do agree. Its like saying someone playing a weighted synth or someone on an electric guitar isnt a "real" musician. PLEASE!!!

If someone plays a synth well they will most likely play a piano well. and someone who is a good electric guitarist should be able to play an acoustic. So the same goes for drummers. A good drummer will be able to get results from either format.
Old 11th February 2011
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRick View Post
We may go even further and wonder whether one who plays on a Mapex kit is a "real" drummer?
It's not about the drummer, it's about the instrument. Playing an acoustic instrument is far different than playing an array of MIDI triggers. In one word: dynamics.

Every few months I'm asked to play at one of several churches, and sit down to a Yamaha DTX550K or Roland TD-10 electronic kit. The only dynamic that can be controlled is volume. A soft hit simply makes the identical sampled sound quieter. This is especially true for cymbals. An acoustic drum reacts completely differently when struck softly. For example, I can play towards the rim of an acoustic drum for a sound with higher overtones; not so on a MIDI pad.

Sure, the samples may be perfect, but there is a limitation to an electronic kit that doesn't exist on an acoustic kit.

<sidebar>
Another thing I'll point out is that there's always guys who sit down on these electronic kits and beat the crap out of them with a pair of 2B sticks, and in the process damage the trigger. This creates dead spots on the pad, or worse, requires a costly repair.
Old 11th February 2011
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB_Photo View Post
It's not about the drummer, it's about the instrument. Playing an acoustic instrument is far different than playing an array of MIDI triggers. In one word: dynamics.
I agree that it is different. My point is that every new setup, every drumset if you like, will still be different. Even if it's acoustic, there will be some adjustmentcurve taking place to get hold of the dynamics due to skins, positioning, wood, stick choice etc. Of course the dynamics are more "real" since the law of physics apply more easily on my Gretsch. That said, a good e-drummer will most likely be a good acoustic drummer and vice versa. A bad one, a bad one and so forth.
Old 11th February 2011
  #58
ysf
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I think a lot of people confuse electric drummers w drum machines. No one playing an electric kit is replacing a drummer. They are the drummer.

As far as dynamics....I have no issues getting the dynamics i need out of my Roland TD20. But I am a finesse drummer not a basher. I think if all you do is play hard you may get less dynamics out of either type of set.
The Roland electrics allow for hundreds of dynamic hits per drum that trigger different samples depending on the velocity. Same with the cymbals and variable hihats.
Then add to this the software available that may have thousands of samples per kit.
My only suggestion is play what you enjoy.

here is a video showing what a good drummer can do dynamically on the vdrums.

Roland U.S. - TD-20SX: V-Pro® Series
Old 12th February 2011
  #59
Any instrument carries it's own discipline...so no, you are not a classical pianist if you play a minimoog...and vice versa not a keyboardist if you only play a grand piano.

That being said, the electronic drums have never been better, and with Superior drummer and other drum software, you can get a pretty realistic performance out of a good electronic kit.

If some people regard it as real or not...who cares

This track (just the drums, bass and some percussion) is played on a Yamaha DTXtreme III with Superior 2.0 as the sound source.
Attached Files

Drumtest 2011.mp3 (4.81 MB, 742 views)

Old 12th February 2011
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takman View Post

Electronic drums are just as real as acoustic drums. Neither is "better" than the other. each has its pros and cons.
Yes. One is convenient and the other sounds good. heh

Just kidding. (Well… not really.)
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