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Why dont all drummers know how to do that snare "rim hit" trick?
Old 7th May 2005
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman
I had to laugh when i read that!

For years I've struggled AGAINST drummers with that lousy habit of hitting the rim on every snare hit.
(and I'm not the only one)

It's a habit they develop by playing live to simply make the drum cut louder... but it's rarely if ever better for recording (when you can make the snare as loud as you need)

Al Kooper talked years ago about having to angle the drum extremely with some drummers in the studio so they physically couldn't hit the rim!

I can't believe you WANT it, Jules!
IMHO - Done well it powers into the room and dominates the ambient 'room' signal and thus leaves behind the washy cymbal sound in the room mic's...

Not for every song...mind you...
Old 7th May 2005
  #32
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 

What makes you think you're recording drummers?
most musicians (uhh! no) band members are relying on post production these days, pre production is a thing of the past, don't have a song, Kontakt beat machine, Stylus Dummagog, no lyrics, take suggestions from the AR who 's lookin at you so he can say he made you.
melodyne BD
I got a boxed set of Humble Pie that I'm lstening to on monitors they never dreamed of having. They don't play perfectly but it's got a great vibe. they might even have done an edit or 2 and a few takes on some solos and the vocals and they even have some of that washy cymbal thing goin' on but not too much
The point is that the drummer should be able to hit the drum that way if he's asked to. It's more about velocity (wrist) than power. when I hit a snare like that people duck for cover if they're near me and I haven't broken a stick in 10 years, or put a dent in the heads or broken a cymbal.
I find that most non pro musicians have the most problems with dynamics, secondly rhythm and thirdly pitch. violinists whose pianissimo sounds like nails on the blackboard and their fortissimo sounds like flageolet.
Old 7th May 2005
  #33
Lives for gear
 
drmmrboy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi
That is SO ingrained into my technique, I have to make a very conscious effort NOT to do it, when inappropriate...

Just comes from decades of trying to be louder than dual SVTs, Marshall stacks, etc. I always break sticks in the middle and they look like a dog has chewed the center out. I will sometimes even do this with toms (for effect).

Maybe it's just me, but I'm always surprised at what a light 'touch' so many of these 'metal' kids have, these days. It ain't jazz; Hit it like you mean it, you little girly man!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge
I come from the exact same school digi!
Me 3!
Over the past few years I have "trained" myself not to do it when inappropiate.
It was a bitch at first, to hit the snare consistently with conviction, without the rim, and make the drum speak.
Some guys can make a snare sound great with out the rim.
Most anyone can be a tapper.

That being said....
I had a session today, where I got to knock the dfegad out of the drums.
Felt good... Sounded nice too...

Andrew
Old 7th May 2005
  #34
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

this is what a snare should look like after a take for rock music
Attached Thumbnails
Why dont all drummers know how to do that snare "rim hit" trick?-bloodysnare.jpg  
Old 7th May 2005
  #35
Lives for gear
 
drmmrboy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
this is what a snare should look like after a take for rock music


That reminds me...
I'm hungry... Is it dinner time yet?
Old 7th May 2005
  #36
Lives for gear
 
cajonezzz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman
I had to laugh when i read that!

For years I've struggled AGAINST drummers with that lousy habit of hitting the rim on every snare hit.
(and I'm not the only one)

It's a habit they develop by playing live to simply make the drum cut louder... but it's rarely if ever better for recording (when you can make the snare as loud as you need)

Al Kooper talked years ago about having to angle the drum extremely with some drummers in the studio so they physically couldn't hit the rim!

I can't believe you WANT it, Jules!
That nails it. ( rimshot!) I think guys get this habit playing live.... I do at least. I have to really decide not to shot most of the time. Most of my gigs have been hard hitting, and I've always deferred to rimshots.
IT'S A BAD HABIT TO HAVE WHEN YOU GET IN THE STUDIO.
I'm also able to play just fine NOT shotting but it is a conscious effort.
One of the best snare sounds I ever heard live was a local guy here that "hit like a pussy" really consistent (great old supra 400) but hit dead center, no rimshot and not hard at all... allowed the AE to really crank it in the club... that was early on in my career and that was an epiphiny for me. Hitting really hard and with rimshots isn't always the way to get the "sound".
Old 7th May 2005
  #37
Moderator emeritus
 

Put me into the camp of "Drummers play too loud these days", and that rim shots are often overkill - I'm about to replace a drummer in a band I play live with because he can't (won't) play soft enough to match the groove. If everyone will get out their copy of the Led Zeppelin DVD, and study it you'll see that John Bonham did NOT play nearly as hard as most rock drummers play today.

Listen to the early Black Sabbath records, the early Blue Oyster Cult records, and even Deep Purple's records - those guys were hitting the drums solidly, but they weren't beating them to death.

I've had the chance to work with guys like Ed Greene (Four Tops, Hall and Oates), and Gene Crisman (Aretha's Natural Woman along with a zillion other records), and it's marvelous - turn up the mics, and there's your drum sound. And you can walk into the room while they're playing without ear protection.

Rimshots are a technique, but that's all. And I'd far rather hear music instead of just volume out of drums.
Old 8th May 2005
  #38
Lives for gear
 
Berolzheimer's Avatar
 

I don't think rim shots necessarily equate loud, or hard hitting. I'm not an especially hard hitter but I do like to use the rim a lot- I just like the timbre, the attack it creates. I also like the expression that comes from varying the timbre by varying the angle of attack of the stick, the amount of rim vs. head, etc. Then again I used to play timbales a lot, which is all about the varying amount of rim, so it came naturally to me when I shifted over to playing more kit.
That said it's certainly not always appropriate. Just one of many brushes to paint with.
Old 9th May 2005
  #39
Lives for gear
 
toledo3's Avatar
 

It is so irritating to my ears to hear that "ping" on every stroke. Ugh.

For my tastes, I tend to only like to hear some rim when the drummer is doing an 8th note or triplet roll just on the snare. Of course, whatever works.
Old 9th May 2005
  #40
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

a rim shot should sound like a massive CRACK, not a ping... but maybe thats just symantics.
Old 9th May 2005
  #41
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toledo3's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
a rim shot should sound like a massive CRACK, not a ping... but maybe thats just symantics.
No, I know what you are saying... Semantics.
Old 9th May 2005
  #42
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max cooper's Avatar
 

I hear a lot of loops that have that real 'KAAANG' type snare; if you've got a snare that tends towards that sound, some distortion on a parallell track can really bring it out (you guys know that, though,)

I'm with the guys that don't prefer it. I think the tendency to use that sound in loop-based music has caused a lot of rock drummers to embrace it.
Old 10th May 2005
  #43
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heinz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskid
I can't believe theres even a 'rim-shots are bad, center hits are good' debate going on!!!

rim-shot when its cool to, don't when its not....

sheeesh

Heck a while back there was a huge debate over bass drum technique, where some suggested it was blasphemy to mash the beater in vs. pull back. They're both techniques with valid applications, yet still....

The rimshot crack is a technique from playing clubs and trying to get over the guitars. A good drummer should be able to do this at will, or not if the situation warrants it. See Bruford on any of his records for more details.
Old 10th May 2005
  #44
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

i like mashing hte beater whiel driving the song and letting off it in the laid back parts. like mashing in chorus and not in verse.
Old 10th May 2005
  #45
Gear Guru
 

crack head

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
ha!

Good suggestion, but the bind I find myself in is the setup time for a session often isnt inough time for a new drummer to master it well enough to use on a recording... not all acts through here get pre production...

to address this specific issue, (without taking a position on the controversial subject of whether rim shots are Bad or Good ) I think you could speed up the learning curve with this trick. Works with matched grip anyway. with a righty drummer:

Have the drummer hold his stick in his hand and have him punch his left fist onto his left leg leg just above the knee and hold it there. Now position the snare drum so the stick catches the rim and head with the fist in this position. then the drummer just has to hit his leg with his hand and the stick should make the rimshot angle with greater consistency.
Old 10th May 2005
  #46
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blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq
Have the drummer hold his stick in his hand and have him punch his left fist onto his left leg leg just above the knee and hold it there.
Funny, haven't thought about this in years! But back when I played (5 or 6 nights a week), I had a perpetual bruise on my left thigh, from beating the **** out of myself this way for 4 hours a night! I will also never have hair on either of my shins, ever again (bass drum beater hair-removal system)... Ah, the 'good' ole days.

Old 10th May 2005
  #47
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi
Funny, haven't thought about this in years! But back when I played (5 or 6 nights a week), I had a perpetual bruise on my left thigh, from beating the **** out of myself this way for 4 hours a night! I will also never have hair on either of my shins, ever again (bass drum beater hair-removal system)... Ah, the 'good' ole days.


many (most? all?) drummers are masochists. When you hit the drums hard, they kind of hit you back
Old 11th May 2005
  #48
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brendondp's Avatar
 

Ah, just what I love... a whole lot of non-drummers assuming we're all a bunch of dumfuks and really don't know what we're doing when we sit down to play.

You guys are hilarious! It wouldn't suprise me if some of you are the same guys who reckon we should stuff our bass drums full of pillows in order to make it easier for you get that "tight punchy contemporary" sound...

Maybe, just maybe, couldn't it be possible that some of us really care about our art, and put ****loads of time, money and energy investing into it? And maybe, just maybe, couldn't it be possible that we've developed techniques that allow us to achieve consistent, yet highly musical results playing gig after gig and doing session after session?

Yeah, you're right - of course not!

Musicians are lazy, tone-deaf, ignorant wannabe's that are simply commodities used in order to keep recording studios in business. And engineers with opinions.

By the way, here's what my sticks look like. But then, I'm one of those "overkill drummers, that play too loud" and is influenced by "loop-based music (that) has caused (me) embrace it" and use the "lousy habit" all the time. What a dumfuk I is!

Cheers to anyone and everyone,

bdp
Attached Thumbnails
Why dont all drummers know how to do that snare "rim hit" trick?-dscf1246.jpg  
Old 11th May 2005
  #49
Lives for gear
 
blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brendondp
By the way, here's what my sticks look like.
Yep. That's it!
Old 11th May 2005
  #50
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by brendondp
= It wouldn't suprise me if some of you are the same guys who reckon we should stuff our bass drums full of pillows in order to make it easier for you get that "tight punchy contemporary" sound...

i play the drums [albiet poorly] and i NEVER suggest adding a pillow to the BD.... in fact i try to talk drummers into taking it OUT of their BD's and tuning them properly.
Old 11th May 2005
  #51
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

i love a drummer who can truly use a rim shot, a drummer who can play his instrument, but then again, i like it when the drummer shows up with his bass drum, snare and a hi hat!
show me you can use those three, then, you can bring more toys to the show.
i feel a drummer must be able to lay-back, and establish a groove without dominating the band.
Old 18th May 2005
  #52
Jai guru deva om
 
warhead's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
i play the drums [albiet poorly] and i NEVER suggest adding a pillow to the BD.... in fact i try to talk drummers into taking it OUT of their BD's and tuning them properly.
I use no padding whatsoever in my kick, tune it low and play it right is better advice for sure.

War
Old 18th May 2005
  #53
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brendondp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pan60
i love a drummer who can truly use a rim shot, a drummer who can play his instrument, but then again, i like it when the drummer shows up with his bass drum, snare and a hi hat!
show me you can use those three, then, you can bring more toys to the show.
i feel a drummer must be able to lay-back, and establish a groove without dominating the band.
The band I'm playing with at the moment is exactly that - kick, snare, hi-hat, and that's it.

The music doesn't demand anything else, though it is quite dynamic, so it all has to come out in the playing. So like War does, no muffling on either head for the kick, nothing inside and tune tune tune. A wide open kick drum like that allows a greater degree of dynamic contrast in comparison with a kick stuffed to the gills to get one sound and one sound only.

For our last gig I used one mic for the kit, placed under the snare facing the kick batter head about 4" away. Captured the snare snap as well as the initial attack of the kick and a suprising amount of low end. Sounded great.

Okay, off the soap box for now...

Cheers,

bdp
Old 19th May 2005
  #54
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audioez's Avatar
 

any drummer(s) who listened to Stuart Copland should have that(rim shot) built in, if not, there just some guy who plays drums and lifts weights.
Old 19th May 2005
  #55
Moderator emeritus
 

You know, I've come up with a new approach to drums and drummers recently - I won't play on a stage with a drummer who's wearing earplugs. if his own playing annoys him, then it's REALLY gonna annoy me.

Some drummers forget that there's more to dynamics than simply playing as hard as they can.
Old 19th May 2005
  #56
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brendondp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Martin
You know, I've come up with a new approach to drums and drummers recently - I won't play on a stage with a drummer who's wearing earplugs. if his own playing annoys him, then it's REALLY gonna annoy me.

Some drummers forget that there's more to dynamics than simply playing as hard as they can.
Really? Wow...

I've used hearing protection for the last ten years, as I've developed a little bit of tinnitus (though no hearing loss according to the last test I had done).

Snares and hi-hats are just killers to a drummer's hearing, and Marshall stacks are just as bad.

Dave, I appreciate your dislike of playing with guys who can't play dynamically, but I wouldn't ever punish someone by not playing with then because they value their hearing.

For me, I've found that foam plugs suck from both a sonic and performance point of view, so I got some custom ones that attenuate all frequencies evenly and use them whenever I play and pretty much whenever I hear live music - classical excepted.

So, y'know, there's two sides to the coin there...

Cheers,

bdp
Old 19th May 2005
  #57
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

i dont think dave plays that kind of music with marshall stacks.
Old 19th May 2005
  #58
Lives for gear
 
brendondp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
i dont think dave plays that kind of music with marshall stacks.
What?!

Are there other type's of music that don't require Marshall stacks...?? Intersting, may have to look into that...

(I jest, I jest)

Actually, the guitar player and bass player I'm playing with now both play through antique (and I mean that in every sense of the word) Holden heads (it's a NZ thing, don't worry) loaded with KT88's - a most un-Marshall sound, but heiniously loud nonetheless...

The band I played in last year had an 80's AC30 - and damn, that was loud too...

Anyhoo, back to the topic at hand I guess

Which is to say that a player who plays rimshots all night doesn't need to be smacking the living **** out of their snare, rimshots are effective if played quietly, and as previously posted, if off-centre can give a multitude of snare sounds. For loud stuff I tend to hit pretty much close to the centre and for more dynamic stuff, anywhere from about 2" in from the rim up toward the centre. Just depends. Ghost notes are usually played off centre and (of course) without playing the rim. Kinda like when I play guitar, I hit (oops, I mean, play)the strings anywhere from quite close to the bridge, to up onto the fretboard, depending on the (dynamic - and tonal) needs of the song.

But I'm sure now there'll be a whole lot of "professional" telling me that guitarists should always play directly over the pickups, with .63 picks, and light gauge strings and...blahblahblah

Cheers,

bdp

Last edited by brendondp; 19th May 2005 at 03:23 AM.. Reason: Clarity of argument
Old 19th May 2005
  #59
Moderator emeritus
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
i dont think dave plays that kind of music with marshall stacks.
Actually, I do play with guitarists with Marshall stacks from time to time, though he usually uses his AC30's....
Old 19th May 2005
  #60
Moderator emeritus
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by brendondp
Really? Wow...

Dave, I appreciate your dislike of playing with guys who can't play dynamically, but I wouldn't ever punish someone by not playing with then because they value their hearing.
It's not THEIR hearing I'm worried about - it's mine...

Seriously, I've owned (and played through) most of the contenders in the 'rock bass amp' category, from Sunn Colosseums to Acoustic 360's and SVT's. I LIKE playing loud. What disturbs me, though, is the practice that I'm seeing more and more of drummers who put in earplugs and then beat the crap out of their drums because they can't hear them. And then they want their monitors screamingly loud because they can't hear anything else, either. (I've seen this in the studio, too - they put in plugs and then crank the phones to the breaking point...)

Those kinds of guys are why I've pretty much decided that if the drummer's wearing plugs, I don't need to be standing beside him.
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