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2nd drum kit for the studio, your thoughts please.
Old 14th April 2019
  #31
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Poopypants's Avatar
 

I figured the guy who suggested the kit was the guy (or one of the guys) I heard playing it, but either way, you're getting excellent advice and getting great results.
Old 14th April 2019
  #32
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henryrobinett's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopypants View Post
I figured the guy who suggested the kit was the guy (or one of the guys) I heard playing it, but either way, you're getting excellent advice and getting great results.
The guy who was playing it is my drummer. He hung out after a rehearsal and helped me test the tom mics. Different person. And thank you.
Old 15th April 2019
  #33
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MickeyMassacre's Avatar
Whatever you choose to do, I feel bearing edges make more of a difference than having two similar kits with different sizes unless you plan on doing a massive kit with both sets sometime.

Go with like gretsch with a vintage round bearing edge.
Old 24th April 2019
  #34
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A big thank you to everyone that has contributed to this thread so far, some great suggestions here and plenty for me to think about.
Old 5th June 2020
  #35
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Black beauty is a Supraphonic. Black beauty is the slang name for the drum that has become "official."

Wood tip sticks are wonderful.

Toms are wonderful.

Almost no one own tape machines, but tape plugins IMO are wonderful.

It doesn't matter what kick pedal you use.

Tuning is a big deal.

Last edited by monkeyxx; 6th June 2020 at 12:22 AM..
Old 6th June 2020
  #36
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_littlejeans View Post
Boring response
thanks, you too
Old 23rd June 2020
  #37
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Poopypants's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
Black beauty is a Supraphonic. Black beauty is the slang name for the drum that has become "official."

Wood tip sticks are wonderful.

Toms are wonderful.

Almost no one own tape machines, but tape plugins IMO are wonderful.

It doesn't matter what kick pedal you use.

Tuning is a big deal.
Black Beauty is not a Supraphonic. The original Supers may have been brass, and I own a brass Super Sensitive, but the main distinction is that MOST (not all) Supraphonics are aluminum, while ALL Black Beauties are brass. Supraphonics are all chrome plated, no matter what's underneath. Black Beauties are all black. I have no idea what gives them that color. Black Beauties also have the fancy engraving, but the microphones can't hear it...
Old 23rd June 2020
  #38
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopypants View Post
Black Beauty is not a Supraphonic. The original Supers may have been brass, and I own a brass Super Sensitive, but the main distinction is that MOST (not all) Supraphonics are aluminum, while ALL Black Beauties are brass. Supraphonics are all chrome plated, no matter what's underneath. Black Beauties are all black. I have no idea what gives them that color. Black Beauties also have the fancy engraving, but the microphones can't hear it...
The original drums were called Super Phonic I think?

Later they changed the name to Supraphonic.

They also introduced aluminum to save on material cost.

The P85 strainer is the "Supraphonic" strainer found on all of these drums other than the Super Sensetive.

I've seen pictures of black beauties labeled "Black Beauty Supraphonic."

One of my close friends is a true drum expert, drum guru, and he's the one that told me that Supraphonic was the name of the whole metal drum lineup from Ludwig. This is the kind of guy that takes pride in pointing out the brass tacks, didn't like when I called my black sparkle acrolite a "blackrolite" LOL!!

We can debate this but I think there's evidence to support the Black Beauty being the slang name for the drum and Super Phonic and Supraphonic being the official company model names.

Modern colloquial parlance would say that most people assume Supraphonic refers to the chrome over aluminum drum, I get that. But if you look back the story is a little different in the past.

I love all of these drums, by the way, my favorite snares. I have a 5x14 chrome over aluminum LM400 and a 6.5x14 Black Beauty with imperial lugs. It's hard to take them off the stand for any reason other than to put up the other one. They record SO well.
Old 23rd June 2020
  #39
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Poopypants's Avatar
 

They are very similar and share a common origin, but they are not the same. The Black Beauties predate the Supraphonics by decades. The precursor to the Supraphonic was called the Super. Sonically, the big difference comes from the brass shell, so if you have a brass Supra (semi rare) then sonically, it's going to be the same as a Black Beauty. But the Supra will be chrome plated, while the Black Beauty will, in fact, be black, hence the name "Black Beauty."

The names are distinct and the names come from Ludwig.

"Blackrolite" is not a Ludwig name, but it is common parlance for the Black Galaxy Acrolites.

I just did a bunch of screen grabs. I have no idea how to add a comment to each one specifically, so:

The super shiny chrome one is a 60's Supraphonic.
The dullish one is a nickle over brass Super Ludwig from 1928
The other chrome one is a brass Supraphonic from 1958. I was under the impression that they didn't actually call them Supraphonics until 60 or 61. I do know a lot about these, but apparently not everything... but this drum will sound the same as a similar Black Beauty from this time.
The other three are Black Beauties. One is from the 1920's (tube lugs, stick chopper hoops.) The other two are 70's. I was trying to see how far back you can go to get a Black Beauty without engraving. That's the earliest I found, but I don't know for sure when they first became available without engraving.
Attached Thumbnails
2nd drum kit for the studio, your thoughts please.-screen-shot-2020-06-23-4.33.29-pm.png   2nd drum kit for the studio, your thoughts please.-screen-shot-2020-06-23-4.32.32-pm.png   2nd drum kit for the studio, your thoughts please.-screen-shot-2020-06-23-4.31.51-pm.png   2nd drum kit for the studio, your thoughts please.-screen-shot-2020-06-23-4.30.27-pm.png   2nd drum kit for the studio, your thoughts please.-screen-shot-2020-06-23-4.29.53-pm.png  

2nd drum kit for the studio, your thoughts please.-screen-shot-2020-06-23-4.29.21-pm.png  
Old 23rd June 2020
  #40
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monkeyxx's Avatar
This is interesting. There is some confusion due to the names changing as well as the drums over the years.

I guess in the 1920's the early "black beauties" would be called the Ludwig DeLuxe drums.

Check out this original 1959 advertisement for the Super Ludwig drums. If you read the fine print of the ad, they mention a solid brass shell.

It seems like some people are using Super Ludwig and Supraphonic interchangeably in all the pages I've looked up, which is mildly confusing, and probably doesn't really matter but it's fun to talk about.

I think perhaps the earliest "literal" letter for letter "Supraphonic" was the 5x14 chrome over aluminum drum. I love that drum, haha. So good. I guess the deeper ones would have come later, along with the bronze ones, the hammered ones, bare aluminum Acrolites, and so on. I'm not sure if they ever made a steel snare drum in the classic era.

But the "big point" I always remember was it was the introduction of the mass produced metal snare drum that really set Ludwig apart initially, vs. the mostly wooden drums of the time. I don't remember the years and decades of them all. I'm a hobbyist in drum history, far from an expert. But I am a Ludwig fan. Made right here in North Carolina.
Attached Thumbnails
2nd drum kit for the studio, your thoughts please.-1959_ludwig_snares1.jpg   2nd drum kit for the studio, your thoughts please.-bc-0815_07.png  
Old 23rd June 2020
  #41
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Here's another ad, the "Model 400" being made of brass, one of the earliest Super Ludwigs, I guess they changed it to aluminum in the following years, and changed the strainer. 1961 on this ad.
Attached Thumbnails
2nd drum kit for the studio, your thoughts please.-1961_ludwig_snares3.jpg  
Old 23rd June 2020
  #42
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Here is the 1988 catalog page for the Brass and Bronze Supraphonic and Super-Sensitive drums. I'll stop after this one.
Attached Thumbnails
2nd drum kit for the studio, your thoughts please.-1988_ludwig_snares5.jpg  
Old 23rd June 2020
  #43
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Poopypants's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
Here's another ad, the "Model 400" being made of brass, one of the earliest Super Ludwigs, I guess they changed it to aluminum in the following years, and changed the strainer. 1961 on this ad.
I actually have the 1960 Super Sensitive version of this drum. Shame. The Super Sensitive strainer sucks, at least for backbeat style playing. Maybe it works better in an orchestral setting.
Old 23rd June 2020
  #44
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Poopypants's Avatar
 

I've perused those catalogs before, but I don't remember every detail. I do know that the Supraphonic came near 1960, and that shortly thereafter, they were predominantly aluminum, which is actually my favorite also. And they were all chrome plated.
Old 23rd June 2020
  #45
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Poopypants's Avatar
 

I recall reading somewhere that there was a metal Sonor drum that inspired the Ludwig metal drums. Had a center bead like the Ludwigs, may have had a two piece shell like the early Ludwigs, but once again, I don't recall every detail.
Old 24th June 2020
  #46
The snare in the last pic is a real looker

Quote:
The super shiny chrome one is a 60's Supraphonic.
The dullish one is a nickle over brass Super Ludwig from 1928
The other chrome one is a brass Supraphonic from 1958. I was under the impression that they didn't actually call them Supraphonics until 60 or 61. I do know a lot about these, but apparently not everything... but this drum will sound the same as a similar Black Beauty from this time.
The other three are Black Beauties. One is from the 1920's (tube lugs, stick chopper hoops.) The other two are 70's. I was trying to see how far back you can go to get a Black Beauty without engraving. That's the earliest I found, but I don't know for sure when they first became available without engraving.
Old 24th June 2020
  #47
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Poopypants's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by themiracle View Post
The snare in the last pic is a real looker

That's the 1920's Black Beauty.
Old 25th June 2020
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopypants View Post
That's the 1920's Black Beauty.
I know what I’m asking for for christmas
.)
Old 25th June 2020
  #49
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Poopypants's Avatar
 

It's nice. It's pretty. It probably sounds great. You could probably get 20 great sounding snare drums for the price of one of these.
Old 25th June 2020
  #50
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopypants View Post
I recall reading somewhere that there was a metal Sonor drum that inspired the Ludwig metal drums. Had a center bead like the Ludwigs, may have had a two piece shell like the early Ludwigs, but once again, I don't recall every detail.
I consulted my "guru" and he told the same story. Mr. Ludwig apparently saw this Sonor metal drum that he loved, and located himself in the US and made his own.

I'll have to try to find the long version of that story somewhere. I guess that's where it all started, speaking of these drums.
Old 25th June 2020
  #51
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I just want to pop on and say there are a lot of cool kits that could be a secondary studio kit, or a live gig kit that seem really well priced.

INde have the wayfarer in interesting depths - 20/12/15 - The 15" floor tom is cool. 20x10, 12x6, 15x10
Natal have the cafe racer line in 3 or 4 size configurations
Ludwig have the neusonics
Gretsch have some limited catalina's made of walnut in bop or R&R sizes - (18/12/14/14x5sn) and (22/12/14/16/14x6.5sn)
DW - frequent flyer and other performance packages

Obviously, there are always Vintage kits and more expensive kits from Gretsch, Ludwig, DW, etc... But, those above seem interesting and well priced for a working studio looking to add different drums sounds and flavors at affordable prices.

YMMV
Old 25th June 2020
  #52
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monkeyxx's Avatar
I'm currently looking at the Pearl Crystal Beat drums as a second option. They look really good to me. Will definitely be different from a wooden drum.
Old 25th June 2020
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
I'm currently looking at the Pearl Crystal Beat drums as a second option. They look really good to me. Will definitely be different from a wooden drum.
Definitely a different sound from any wood drums.
Old 25th June 2020
  #54
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monkeyxx's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ox Han View Post
Definitely a different sound from any wood drums.
Do you have some experience with the acrylic drums?

I personally don't know a whole lot about them, other than seeing other people use them.

For example I heard Eric Valentine talk a lot about using his Vistalite 24" kick drum on a lot of sessions.

I have also been in the room with a really nice Sonor acrylic kit, that was kind of epic.
Old 26th June 2020
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyxx View Post
Do you have some experience with the acrylic drums?

I personally don't know a whole lot about them, other than seeing other people use them.

For example I heard Eric Valentine talk a lot about using his Vistalite 24" kick drum on a lot of sessions.

I have also been in the room with a really nice Sonor acrylic kit, that was kind of epic.
I’ve never played an acrylic kit. I don’t think I’ve heard one in person either. I have recorded a band whose drummer used a reissue vistalite snare. It was very dry. From what I can recall, I’d describe it a splatty, or spitty.

I remember not caring for it so much when the drummer was tuning it. Once it was in context if the kit it fit really well. And once the guitars and bass were tracked it really cut through effortlessly and was a really great snare sound. I’ve often thought of picking one up since those sessions.
Old 26th June 2020
  #56
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Drumsound's Avatar
I have a 7x13" Pork Pie acrylic snare that's pretty cool. The price was like $120 with a stand and case on CL.
Old 26th June 2020
  #57
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Poopypants's Avatar
 

I've never owned an acrylic kit and never recorded one, but I've played a few on gigs (kit sharing and rental kits) and just recently tuned an acrylic kit for someone else's session. I think I liked every single one of them. I think I expected them to be bright and y, but these were all fat. I pretty much only play vintage wooden drums, and I've liked all the acrylic kits I've played.
Old 4 days ago
  #58
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Hi all, original poster here with an update but first I Just want to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread so far. There's some real good content here which I have found real interesting and useful and hopefully it will continue to be of value to others.

Ok, late last year I acquired a '68 vintage Ludwig for the studio consisting of a 24" kick and 13" and 16" toms. The kit required a little bit of restoration but nothing too drastic and it was well worth it, sounds lovely and provides a nice contrast to my Yamaha Kit. Im currently having fun experimenting with different tunings and dampening methods of the kit, especially the 24" kick.

Also just recently, one of the modern Gretsch 'Catalina Club' kits came up on the pre owned market not far from me at a real low price in the 18" 12" and 14" bop-kit configuration which I couldn't resist and I'm pleasantly surprised at how good this kit sounds as they certainly don't break the bank even when buying them new.
Old 4 days ago
  #59
Gear Addict
find an old 70's or 80's gretsch with 24, 13, 16 with jasper shells and die cast hoops.

you will never be sorry.

i promise.
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