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Restauration of Studer 169console ....in detail
Old 31st July 2010
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindtree View Post
I have re-capped some modules and they are re-born!. This is very exciting. I have re-capped one dead Master channel, and it makes sounds, and that's beautifully. Only by re-capping can make this happen.
ANd I also re-capped 2 dead monitor unit, and they work again. Thank you guys for this great thread and informations.
I will re-cap other modules when I have time.

BTW, I have come to have a few questions.

1. Some switches make big popping noises when it is switched. For example limiter on/off switch. I'm wodering why is that? If I replace this with good one, can I solve this problem? Or is this issue is related with other part? I have some master modules, and there are some modules especially this sympton.

2. Some master modules fader volume is too loud even though the fader is in the low position, and even though I put it upward gragually, there's no big difference in volume. Is this because of the wrong fader or other wrong parts?

3. After I re-cap monitor module, I could see all VU meter's reaction stable when I turn the power on/off. But one thing is that the small VU meter above on the right channel master VU, it reacts strange. When I turn it on, it goes to the far right, and then go down to the left side, but, it comes back too slowly. The left channel comes back in 2-3 seconds, but this one comes back in 10-20 seconds.
I have used 220uF/25v, and 100uF/25v on monitor module like roginator did. But origial value seems to be 200uF/6v...etc. I'm wondering this is the cause or is there other reason for this?
I have tested with other re-capped monitor module and it was same, and I also have tested with other VU meter brides, and it was same. So I think it's definitely because of the module.

Thank you in advance. I think I might have more questions soon..
good!


for Q1, look at the studer ftp for the "service instruction" pdf
if my memory are good, you can find a mod for limiter on/off pop.
For the other , clean it ,if it don't fix the clip/pop change it...

Q2 clean the fader and check the conductive track

Q3 you talk about the aux meter ? (rev and foldback)
did you check the aux/talkback module too? you have the aux output line amp here... and the small Vu meter show this output... the signal just pass trough the monitor module (mother board --> sub25)for the small Vu
Old 31st July 2010
  #62
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Thanks. I didn't recap aux module yet. Some Axial type cap didn't arrive yet. I had to order from 4 different places to get all the caps needed for this 269...

In the meanwhile I have re-capped one more master module, and it also makes sound. But, I found that this module and the other module sound too different. One is very thin and the other is thick. What makes each module sound so different?

BTW, I really like this mixer's sound.
Old 31st July 2010
  #63
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some clicks and pops i had in 169 came couse of dead tantalum caps in modules!!!!

also mesaure faders!!!! good way to start .. they are not all same ..I know that best :(
Old 12th August 2010
  #64
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More questions

Hi, all
I've brought a lot of questions while I'm working on 169 strips. really appreciate for your replies in advance.

Q1: From Master channels, it seems that some kind of Hiss Noise comes out.
I tried different master modules too, but they are almost same. The level of the noise is different from channel to channel.
I'm wondering if I change all of the elect caps, then can I solve this issue? The reason why i ask this question is that it still have hiss noise even though I've re-capped some strips.

Q2: How can I clean the toggle switches? Some switches sometimes don't work. I'm wodering if it is OK to put some kind of liquid into the switch.

Q3: roginator wrote: some clicks and pops i had in 169 came couse of dead tantalum caps in modules!!!!

Which caps were they? It seems that most of my master module's limiter on/off switch make a big popping,, like it's going to tear the speakers. Very big popping noise when engaged.

Q4: And also it seems limiter does not work. I have tried a few more master channels, but they are same. There's no difference even I turn it on. Why is that?

Q5: roginator: you wrote:
I use destilated warm water and maybe in it 3-4% of alcohol... just a few drops ....
and something that my wife call magic cleaner ... kinda of textil... and with wet magic cleaner i clean fader resistor slale and after that I clean all with just destilated warm water .... THATs it..IT works perfect!!!!

Can you please describe more specific? Do you do it fader carbon attached to the fader? or do you pull the carbons out, and put it into the water?
Many of my strips make a big popping noise when I put them to the lower end.(off position). Some of them even make hum noises when turned off. I'm wondering if I can solve the problem by cleaning carbons.

I really hope to watch how to clean the fader carbons. Can someone shoot a instructional video for this? or can explain how to clean the fader carbons in more specific way?

Thanks again.
Thank zamproject for the kind replies all the time.
Old 12th August 2010
  #65
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A0 ... you have bad 169 ..send it to me for.. ill pay shipping heh

just kidding man!! hahaha

A1: REPLACE ALL TANTALUM CAPACITORS!!!! they are bigger problem than electrolytic ones.. still frako was a big problem

A2: I use oszcilin T6 teslanol spray or replace switch !!!!!!

A3: check A1

A4: Check A1, check FET transistor, LM 301 also !!!!! and switch ..they know to go bad!!

A5: pop noise ... check A1 heh
Cleaning is easy ..JUST take fader out or module, use some fine textil and destilated water + alcohol formula .. and clean!!!!! dry with a soft paper !!!

hope this helps!!!
Old 26th October 2010
  #66
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169 Edge Card Connectors Parts Source

[QUOTE=roginator;5356332]OK UPDATE .. some new pictures..EXTENDER are FINALLY in function!!!



Where did you source the edge card connectors? I need to make a set of four like you have made. Mouser, Farnell, Digikey or other part numbers would suffice for the card and connectors.

Thanks,
Old 3rd November 2010
  #67
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For those wanting to rack these modules, im racking one right now, and i designed a PCB to add a transformer balanced output on the modules which i might be posting soon. The problem racking these modules is that the LM301AN are not the best with heavy loads, add that to the fact that the "default" direct output is the insert patchpoint which if i recall correctly is pre-eq although i think studer mentions something about placing the insert after the eq, i cant remember really.

Anyway, so the solution was creating a PCB with an NE5534 to drive an output transformer (or without a transformer), i just designed and built the PCB, and after some tests im confident to say that this thing works like a charm. I still have to patch it to the module and see how the module works, but so far everythig is good.

Another solution, which Brian Roth suggested is skipping the NE5534 stage and use a 1:2 ratio transformer to bump the level of this things and keep it balanced, the only "gotcha" as Brian says, would be something like an LA2A which has a 600ohm input impedance, in which case you are screwed, but most of the equipment out there have a high input impedance so it shouldnt be a problem if you dont want to get your hands dirty with the PCB build.

I had a bunch of 1:1 transformers laying around so i decided to do the NE5534 thing.

Yeah i know i know, Jim Williams is probably going to say that the NE5534 is an old opamp, that its just adding more circuitry to the signal path or that it needs to be replaced with whatever extra super hi-speed opamp, and i always respect Jim's opinion, and he has offered great advice to me in the past, but the truth is that the 5534s are still even to this day, great opamps!

Anyway ill keep you guys posted....
Old 4th November 2010
  #68
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Hello Dualflip,

The 169 manual (available from studer.ch) describes various options for pre/post fader and EQ -- it is pretty flexible -- so you can tap a direct from a number of points.

The post pre-amp booster uses the LM301 in an unusual way that not the normal negative feedback op amp connection. It is buffered by a transistor and the -/+ of the op amp are connected to the supply rails. Without any analysis on the circuit I would guess the designers might be leveraging the transistors in the op amp. I'd be keen to hear some thoughts on this. You could tap after this point but then the DO becomes dependent on the fader position.

However, I replaced all the EQ 301s with OPA604s and OPA134 and it really helped to clean up the overall sound. (watch the current draw on these since it is higher than the 301s and several will take the unit over the PS amperage)

The 5534 is still a great op amp. I would recommend NOT using a transformer to boost the DO. I find that the board has a lot of personality with the input and output transformers and too many in the signal path additively start to smear the sound. I have been entertaining the BB DRV134 as a true floating balance out with a buffer bring the gain up. Again, too many op amps? In any case, it is a matter of application and personal taste.

I am interested to hear how you progress with this project. I have several spare modules that I have been thinking about racking up.
Old 7th November 2010
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulghur View Post
Hello Dualflip,

The 169 manual (available from studer.ch) describes various options for pre/post fader and EQ -- it is pretty flexible -- so you can tap a direct from a number of points.

The post pre-amp booster uses the LM301 in an unusual way that not the normal negative feedback op amp connection. It is buffered by a transistor and the -/+ of the op amp are connected to the supply rails. Without any analysis on the circuit I would guess the designers might be leveraging the transistors in the op amp. I'd be keen to hear some thoughts on this. You could tap after this point but then the DO becomes dependent on the fader position.

However, I replaced all the EQ 301s with OPA604s and OPA134 and it really helped to clean up the overall sound. (watch the current draw on these since it is higher than the 301s and several will take the unit over the PS amperage)

The 5534 is still a great op amp. I would recommend NOT using a transformer to boost the DO. I find that the board has a lot of personality with the input and output transformers and too many in the signal path additively start to smear the sound. I have been entertaining the BB DRV134 as a true floating balance out with a buffer bring the gain up. Again, too many op amps? In any case, it is a matter of application and personal taste.

I am interested to hear how you progress with this project. I have several spare modules that I have been thinking about racking up.
Hi there, thanks a lot for your comments, the racking procedure is something i discussed a lot with some friends before actually doing it, and an extra circuit with NE5534 as output buffer driving a 1:1 transformer seemed like the way to go, that doesnt mean its the best way, but its cheap, easy and it just works.

I almost finish racking this thing, i placed the fader after the EQ, and the EQ before the insert, and i did a simple mod were you can select if you want the output of the module to be from the insert (bypassing the fader) or after the fader.

So far, the PCB i built works like a charm!, im not really interested on replacing the LM301s on the EQ, maybe the one on the fader but not the EQ, as for the output buffer i installed, maybe in the future ill use a discrete opamp instead of the NE5534, this way, i would have the possibility of having a fully discrete preamp (with the Eq off), if i select the output to be from the insert, but to be honest i dont think thats even necessary.

I also bypassed the entire fet stages that are after the fader, this includes pan-pots, solo switches, etc... in fact im considering just desoldering the damn things to lower the power consumption. Its really easy to move the circuitry order in these modules, its just a matter of repatching some cables, i really love the elegant and simple design of the 169 module.
Old 7th November 2010
  #70
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One 169 console arrived for restauration....

nice looking one but 4 generations of modules in there and 4 types of capacitors.... ALSO some not too expirienced tech messed around it .. some traces in some modules look like broken

WORK WORK WORK!!!

will bring life into it!!!!
Old 7th November 2010
  #71
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hey Jose ...

check studer 069 documentation for replacing LM301.. that small console use TDA 1034 (NE 5534) it will interesting since 069 is actually 169 without complex eq EQ!!
Old 7th November 2010
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roginator View Post
hey Jose ...

check studer 069 documentation for replacing LM301.. that small console use TDA 1034 (NE 5534) it will interesting since 069 is actually 169 without complex eq EQ!!
Im ahead of you with that, i already know how to replace the LM301s on the EQ with NE5534, it was discussed in a thread i made more than a year ago at prodigy-pro, its just that im not sure if ill do it or not... because i may want to keep that thing eq untouched... as i said, changing the fader buffer would be nice, but its tricky because as someone else pointed out, the input stage is bypassed and replaced with a discrete transistor, so... its not as straight forward as with the EQ

However!, if you are looking on how to replace the LM301s in the EQ, heres the answer : OPAMP upgrade for LM301AN?
Old 12th November 2010
  #73
Hey Roginator,

Thanks for the very useful thread !

Quick question : would your recapping change the sound of the board ? (you seem to have changed quite a few things in there) ...

I am the happy owner of a 169 and a 269 that I would like to use together.

I am not sure I got this direct out thing, will look into it for sure.

Cheers,
Old 13th November 2010
  #74
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sound ....

o yes ..changed ................to far better !!!

imagine 300+ of all most dead frako capacitors ..90% were dry !
30 years old tantalum capacitors, and non demagnetized audio transformers..
non-calibrated channels,limiters and master modules ... and DRY PSU!

that is today mostly sound of studer 169 consoles!!!!!!

and still they sound very good!!!!

now imagine that with new soul!!!!
I love sound of my studer 169 after restauration !!! changed to better a lot!!!
some purist will say its not 100% studer sound .. no frako caps any more .. but i dont care... to my ears it sound PERFECT!!!!

Its up to you... BUT check that frako caps in console.. they are almost dead... its visual on first picture with frako in channel in this thread.
Old 13th November 2010
  #75
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it only waits for new wood panels .... JUST PERFECT ONE!!!

Old 13th November 2010
  #76
Gorgeous !


Quote:
Originally Posted by roginator View Post
it only waits for new wood panels .... JUST PERFECT ONE!!!

Old 13th November 2010
  #77
(pseudo-) direct outs

Hi again,

I am about to start building "direct outs" for my 169+269 and your post-fader solution sounds the best to me.

I just have a very basic question : what are you using as a direct out connector ? Insert stereo jack ? Banana connector ? Something custom ? etc.

Thanks for you help !
Old 14th November 2010
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noize_organizer View Post
Hi again,

I am about to start building "direct outs" for my 169+269 and your post-fader solution sounds the best to me.

I just have a very basic question : what are you using as a direct out connector ? Insert stereo jack ? Banana connector ? Something custom ? etc.

Thanks for you help !
banana jacks for unbalanced out!!
Old 18th November 2010
  #79
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I've been seriously considering replacing the 47uf/3v tantal decoupling cap for an electrolytic, it may be part of the sound, but im very tempted to do it.....
Old 18th November 2010
  #80
Quote:
Originally Posted by roginator View Post
banana jacks for unbalanced out!!
OK - wow, that would be the first time I do this.
You then have to create a custom multicore banana -> patch (or XLR) ?

How about the sound ? I know banana connectors were not intended to carry an audio signal, could that affect the sound in a negative way ?

Thanks for your help, I'd like to go for the best solution !
Old 18th November 2010
  #81
Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip View Post
I've been seriously considering replacing the 47uf/3v tantal decoupling cap for an electrolytic, it may be part of the sound, but im very tempted to do it.....
I am not that of a tech-head but I was advised to keep the channels as original as possible to retain the gentle color of the mixer.
Old 18th November 2010
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip View Post
I've been seriously considering replacing the 47uf/3v tantal decoupling cap for an electrolytic, it may be part of the sound, but im very tempted to do it.....
you think one in preamp stage ???? .. I replaced it with same tanatlum 5%

Old 19th November 2010
  #83
Banana multicore for direct outs : anyone ?
Old 19th November 2010
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noize_organizer View Post
Banana multicore for direct outs : anyone ?
never see, you have to do it yourself...
buy some 8 channel TR snake cut one end and put the banana...
TS/TS snake 20€ + 16 banana 5€
just have to stay in short length (under 3m/9fts) because of unbalanced signal...

but ? why not just using the insert jack for direct out? you can patch it everywhere in the audio path!
Old 21st November 2010
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noize_organizer View Post
I am not that of a tech-head but I was advised to keep the channels as original as possible to retain the gentle color of the mixer.
To be honest i dont think a tantalum cap will get rid of the color of the mixer, the frequency response makes them unsuitable for audio since they have very high ESR and they are non-linear.

Other things like the design and a passive pre-amp, the transistors and the opamps used, and the transformers are the ones really giving the Studer that color, the tantalum im talking about is just there to stop DC from entering the preamp, it just happens to be in the first stages of the audio path, and i think that if replaced with a high quality electrolytic, it will let the studer shine more.

Although fair is fair, that capacitor may change the color of the mixer, but that color may be even better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roginator View Post
you think one in preamp stage ???? .. I replaced it with same tanatlum 5%

thats the one!, still a 5% tantalum is a tantalum....
Old 22nd November 2010
  #86
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yeah Jose... I agree

BUT I keeped TANTALUMS in Studer.. JUST love sound ALL THE WAY!!!
Old 22nd November 2010
  #87
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Hey Roginator,

Great info. Thanx! I'm just planning on recapping my Studer 169. I noticed you use slightly different values(higher voltages) than the original frako caps. Why is that? Availability?
Old 22nd November 2010
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruleno.1 View Post
Hey Roginator,

Great info. Thanx! I'm just planning on recapping my Studer 169. I noticed you use slightly different values(higher voltages) than the original frako caps. Why is that? Availability?
Hi voltage values dont change sound but higher or lower capacity do!!!( also type of cap is changing sound )

Old frako are worst capacitors i have ever seen (btw when you change em cut them in half and try a smell heh ) .. after so many years they work and smell like ****!!

so higher values of voltage on Panasonic, Elna, Rifa and nichicon wont do change on sound

D
Old 23rd November 2010
  #89
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fourth 169 on work bench!! tomorrow calibration!!

AGAIN >>>> I HATE FRAKO CAPACITORS!!
Old 23rd November 2010
  #90
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Hey, i just finished racking this baby, my gooooooood it sounds great!!!!!, and with the output buffer, plus transformer, the noise level of the unit is practically non-existant, really its just ridiculous how quiet it is.

I recalibrated the fader to unity gain, and when the fader is set at "0" or no attenuation, i get a +4dbu output after the output transformer the fader bypass switch mod i made works great too!, you loose 10db if you skip the fader because you are not using those extra 10db's from the fader buffer, but its ok, the eq is patched before the insert, so can use the eq regardless of the switch position.



I was fooling around with it yesterday, and i couldnt believe how great it sounds, specially how quiet it is, the MCI output trannie & the Studer input trannies working together combine perfectly! although i would like to try it with something more transparent like Jensen just to hear how it sounds, those Studer input trannies have a lot of color. I demagnetized the thing, and i cant say if i hear a difference or not, since i didnt use it before that.

Pics soon
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