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What % of released edm tracks are using sample packs for drum loop! groove , etc ?
Old 18th December 2014
  #1
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roc's Avatar
 

What % of released edm tracks are using sample packs for drum loop! groove , etc ?

Forgive me if I seem a little slow, but my brain is super analytical and I learn from concepts and ideas the best . The things I say may sound like child's play to you but trust me it helps me very much .

I have been working on making dance tracks for a while now ( deep soulful house , techno ,dub, minimal house ) . I do know how to play chord progression and bass-lines but my drums suck .

I was recently listing to a mix cd from a friend and all the tracks had slamming ass drums .I mean drums that sound a groove so good you could fart on it I'll it would be a great record . I'm starting to thing making tracks is all about drums . I have new and vintage drum machines but my drums don't come anywhere close to the sound or the groove on those tracks .

So I started thinking that maybe their using these sample loop packs for drums .

I have been in the mind set that , if I use samples , then the track is not really made by me .
But is this the wrong way to think about it . I mean while I'm busting myass to make slamming dums that groove someone else can just use a sample pack for drums and start creating from there .

So my question is , what percentage of pro released tracks are using sample packs ?
Because everyday there seems to be new ones coming out so someone must be buying them right. Or is this a secret or just common knowledge ?

Why do I say secret I'll give you an example , every time you read or hear an interview with producer this or that and they get to talking about there workflow they always say ,
O yea I make all my sounds from scratch , I sample this or that chop it up eq compress it and boom magic . Is this complete bull**** ? Are many of these guys just buying sample packs . Because you never hear in a interview a guy saying , O yea for drums we just use sample packs .

If samples is where it's at what hardware do you recommend to use them Octotrak , MPC or other . I can get a really great deal on a MPC 5000 but not sure if it's worth it .

Thanks for your help
Peace
Old 18th December 2014
  #2
Gear Head
 

im relatively certain that drum processing is a talent that can only be granted to someone if they are in good favour with the gods

but honestly yeah its possible some people use drum loops but a lot of it is just really good processing and mixing work. also using quality samples
Old 18th December 2014
  #3
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djstyleee's Avatar
 

Yeah I think a lot of dance music producers use sample packs like Vengeance Sound, which are excellent! These samples are generally layered/stacked and processed to taste.
Old 18th December 2014
  #4
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A measurable percentage of extremely well-known electronic dance music artists use sample packs for their drums. Some of them manipulate the samples & loops a bit, while others use completely unaltered samples/kits/presets. Vengeance is one of the companies, who's sample packs I continuously hear in people's productions.

Perhsps try experimenting with some different processing on your drum machines. Have you tried tacking your drums to tape? Even using plugin emulation (not quite as good, but cheaper & more convenient) can really help a lot, if applied appropriately. I've had great success processing my TR-909, using UAD plugins (DBX-VCA comp, Studer Tape, Fairchild, Fatso Sr., etc), along with my trusty Sony Oxford bundle.
Have fun & best of luck to you!





- T
Old 18th December 2014
  #5
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Miiko's Avatar
 

100%
Old 18th December 2014
  #6
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Der Laborant's Avatar
 

A lot.

Not sure about loops, but definitly one shots.

You can layer them, process them in many different ways, and then layer them again e.g.

A good groove can be achieved without loops or certain machines, you just need the feel/knowledge

I love working on drums, because that's what I can do quite good I'd say, I have a hard time with melodie and progressions, but groove and stuff is natural

Velocity, Syncopation etc., dunno... when I have a bar and split it up in 16th I just know where to place my drums/percussions most of the time, a feel.
Old 18th December 2014
  #7
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depulse's Avatar
Judging from how similar all EDM tracks sounds, I estimate it to 100%.
Old 18th December 2014
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by depulse View Post
Judging from how similar all EDM tracks sounds, I estimate it to 100%.
Yeah because nobody ever used a real TR-909 to make EDM.
Old 18th December 2014
  #9
AvS
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The official number is 92,568%....

Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
I have been in the mind set that , if I use samples , then the track is not really made by me .
And you haven't made all your synths and other instruments yourself, so your synth based tracks are not made by you either. I think it's the wrong way of thinking. A sample pack is very far form a full track and what's makes a track personal is very much the process of selecting the sounds for a track. I personally think that this process of selecting the "right" sounds is one of the hardest things to do. It's also one thing that not really spoken about very much, maybe because it's very hard to define with words, how you choose your sounds. It's just what feel right in the end.
Old 18th December 2014
  #10
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Bath Knight's Avatar
 

People have been using sample cd's for 30 years nearly.

the end.
Old 18th December 2014
  #11
Lots of the studio video show them using loops for one thing or another.
Old 18th December 2014
  #12
Wildfunk
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
So I started thinking that maybe their using these sample loop packs for drums ... I have been in the mind set that , if I use samples , then the track is not really made by me.
And what did you use? Samples. For sure.
Old 19th December 2014
  #13
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Eigenwert's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Laborant View Post
I love working on drums, because that's what I can do quite good I'd say, I have a hard time with melodie and progressions, but groove and stuff is natural

Velocity, Syncopation etc., dunno... when I have a bar and split it up in 16th I just know where to place my drums/percussions most of the time, a feel.
Just asking... Are these tracks available online? Or are you talking about the tracks found in the footer below your posts?

Just to show an example of a slammin' groove from a 11 years and 10 months old release where I initially was thinking "thats a nice groove, did that guy involve some pre made drum loop" when listening to it for the first time was e.g some of the drum stuff that starts at 0:45 @ satt va Echo Of Silence Way Out West Remix:



That "snare & hi hat loop" effect isn't achieved by putting the drum hits to the right position in the sequence alone. It rather has to do with the processing. I hear good loops on pre made drum loop releases that are not easy to create on your own. I guess that's what this topic is about. Do you have home-made examples of grooves that make us hold our breath, just like that example I posted did 11+ years ago? That would be very interesting.
Old 19th December 2014
  #14
If we're talking "EDM" as in all that poppy, Big Room, pseudo-progressive type stuff, then I'd say nearly all use samples for drums.

I do listen to a fair amount of "dance" music which I would not consider "EDM" that definitely use analog drum machines and synthesized drum sounds. I prefer this type of sound myself but based on personal experience, its not that easy to get them to sound as explosive or present as the samples I have which likely were EQ'd, compressed and/or limited with hardware.

I bought a Tempest not long ago, and also make drum shots with other synths I have. It requires some pretty heavy EQ and processing to get them sounding how I like. Perhaps it is just my lack of experience, and I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.

Perhaps read up on drum processing. I personally don't compress individual one shots because they already have been, but I do pretty complicated parallel drum buss processing to get things sounding unified and punchy.

I agree with your statement about it being all about the drums. Its not everything, but if the drum line is weak, I don't care what else everything sounds like, it falls flat. You can hear it instantly during the intro if the person who put the track together has talent or not. It is obvious to my ears as well.

Just keep on working at it, trying things out. I think mixing skill really has a lot to do with it. These guys that pinch kicks from high profile tracks and then drop it in their own quickly realize that.
Old 19th December 2014
  #15
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Der Laborant's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
Just asking... Are these tracks available online? Or are you talking about the tracks found in the footer below your posts?

Just to show an example of a slammin' groove from a 11 years and 10 months old release where I initially was thinking "thats a nice groove, did that guy involve some pre made drum loop" when listening to it for the first time was e.g some of the drum stuff that starts at 0:45 @ satt va Echo Of Silence Way Out West Remix:



That "snare & hi hat loop" effect isn't achieved by putting the drum hits to the right position in the sequence alone. It rather has to do with the processing. I hear good loops on pre made drum loop releases that are not easy to create on your own. I guess that's what this topic is about. Do you have home-made examples of grooves that make us hold our breath, just like that example I posted did 11+ years ago? That would be very interesting.
Ye, the ones below are some of the stuff I made. So yeah, there are examples online.


You should be more precise with the processing stuff when it comes to loops, a good groove doesn't rely on how it sounds, it's more about timing(and I mean envelopes and not some mpc magic timing) and placement I'd say, of course sounds that interact nicely together are better for the groove and enhance it even more, that plays a special role I admit, but it's not everything

Dunno if my drum loops hold your breath(this indvidual taste thing comes to my mind, whatever) but your example doesn't hold mine, I'm in the office, but it sounds standart with a nice shaker line, which involves velocity and layering perhaps, but common placement

I'm more to unusual combinations of samples, not placing the snare or clap on the second and 4th of every bar, that's what is interesting, my music is not made for dancing but you could easily imply techiques into EDM (not the poppy stuff), think about triplets in house, delicious, maybe the thread starter should research triplet programming as he makes soulful house aswell
Old 19th December 2014
  #16
Gear Head
 

I am pretty firmly entrenched in the more underground House world and I would guess that most producers are using drum loops from sample packs. I have been shocked over the last couple of years to discover how high
the percentage is who simply mix and match pre-made loops. I'm not commenting on the 'validity' of this method, simply pointing it out. I'd go so far as to say it is extremely rare these days to find producers who are making their own, but the ones who do definitely stand out with their own sound.
Old 19th December 2014
  #17
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roc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by halfmachine View Post
I am pretty firmly entrenched in the more underground House world and I would guess that most producers are using drum loops from sample packs. I have been shocked over the last couple of years to discover how high
the percentage is who simply mix and match pre-made loops. I'm not commenting on the 'validity' of this method, simply pointing it out. I'd go so far as to say it is extremely rare these days to find producers who are making their own, but the ones who do definitely stand out with their own sound.
Thanks for all the reply guys , great stuff .

Yes this is my concern , I am also into some of the deeper stuff (techno , house ) also and some of the drums are amazing so much that I said sure it's possible some are doing it from scratch but know way all of them are .

Mind you , I'm not talking about the I made a track on my lunch break type track (witch is cool ) I mean the pro level dope type tracks .

The problem here is why are we buying all of these expensive drum machines
and the guy who's actually getting paid for releases is just using perfectly made dope drum loops or whatever .

Don't get me wrong of course you can program your own dope drum loops but how long will that take , some of these loop libraries are so good you will never be able to compete unless your an expert percussionist or drummer .

As producers theses days we wear a lot of hats , especially when trying to be original and now I'm starting to think the one place you can get help and still be original is drum loops .

Some of these libraries are so good that I'm starting to think it's a deep dark secret that most successful producers are
using sample libraries for drum loops because the dance floor is depended on drums , matter of fact I'm starting to think the whole deep dance industry is depended on drums and all this time I've been focusing on chord progressions , I mean for years all I did was work on chord progressions and basslines and whould have sub par drums and wonder why I start to hate it .

Most of you may already know this but it's news to me because i've been spending all my time for years up late night trying to make some deep dope tracks with sub par drums .

I'm also starting to think , I don't care how good your music is , if the drums are not slamming your track comes of weak .

I mean how many producers really play live percussions in there track ?

Think about how many sample libraries (loops) come out everyday something up .

I'm starting to think that many dance producers have no clothes on , it's ok but wow .

That may explain why most EDM or whatever sounds the same today because they never had to focus on harmony they know a secret about drums , thats is if you have dope slamming drums people will dance no matter what.
Or i'm way off as usual .
Old 19th December 2014
  #18
Gear Nut
 

As soon as I hear drums like this stuff mentioned above, I lose interest. Most of it sounds like where it came from.

For me using one hit drum samples that someone else processed is fine. Sampling other work thats in a different genre is ok for me too (thats the history of sampling). Even sampling some of your favourite drum hits is ok.

Using commercially made loops and even pre arranged drum kits is not ok for me. It means your creative choice has been chosen by someone else and that actually affects your process and affects your overall sound.

Having said that if you can do something creative with all that, then its fine, you have reinvented it (even then its getting blurry for me). But simply grabbing all your favourite loops that someone else made, and lining them up in the way you heard other tracks do it - thats BS.

Start building up your own kits of all your favourite drum hits and samples. Start getting creative with loops. Start creating your own loops with drums, synths, samples, anything. The more creative you are, the more people will hear it. The world doesn't need more soulless BS 'EDM' music.

It really depends on what you are listening too though. No one can help you if you are into the really commercial formulaic side of electronic music. If you want to sound like that, then you want to sound like that, and you should start using the drums/loops they use . You can all nod together when your tracks play loops from the latest vengeance pack.

I also think you need to start looking at your favourite producers and see what gear they are using. Many (if not most?) top producers of various genres rarely use commercial loops if at all etc. Thats also one of the reasons why their stuff sounds fresh. So many producers have access to either drum machines or good outboard gear, and thats part of their setup or part of their process (ie mastering stage).

Hearing what one good analogue compressor can do to some drum samples is amazing! Let alone the rest of the stuff you can use.

Finally there is a whole lot of crap music that floods the channels these days and it might look like everyone is using purchased loops, but are the really good producers using just sample packs/loops and arranging them? In the genres I like, the producers tend to prefer a creative process - wow isn't that amazing! haha.

For certain genres, it seems more popular to use sample pack/loops and you can get away with it and the audience is less discerning.
Old 19th December 2014
  #19
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Der Laborant's Avatar
 

The L.I.E.S. stuff isn't that underground anymore but that particular sound is what I percieve as underground electronics these days. clone.nl and stuff, (still) niche music more or less.

I took a closer look at the LIES catalouge the last days and they definitly got some sweet pearls released on that label, but also stuff I'dont get along with

I guess they don't use loops but drum machines and samplers with one shots from real hardware instruments

housy tracks without pre made drum loops I hope:









But I know what you mean, I was surprised when I saw, that Huxley uses 90's style house loops in the background, but that wasn't that uncommon in the mid or late 90's I guess, lots of sample CDs with loops on it

I say take high quality samples, play the envelopes and learn to process like the "big ones"

Ai, this will help ya much OP
Beat Dissected - Attack Magazine

Thank me later
Old 19th December 2014
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
I'm also starting to think , I don't care how good your music is , if the drums are not slamming your track comes of weak .
That is absolutely crucial. I don't think that's a secret in any way. Even Robert Babicz (Rob Acid) said in an interview that TR-909 (not to mention all the wimpy analogue drum machines) are just not enough today. That's why he uses Maschine and samples.
Old 19th December 2014
  #21
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yep they all use sample loops......which is why it all sounds rubbish.To my very old experienced ears(years.) true story but no facts!!!!!!ahem
Old 19th December 2014
  #22
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garbage in garbage out as they say....or maybe you like shopping in supermarkets and gm food.
Old 19th December 2014
  #23
Gear Head
 

I second having a look at the LIES stuff, it's a good example of stuff that doesn't use the commercially available pre-made sample pack drum loops.
I have noticed a number of Huxley tracks using same pack loops. I think his stuff is great in general, not taking anything away from him, but he is one of the many producers I was surprised to learn uses them.
I'm mainly saying I understand what the original poster is saying. I here these tracks by very young producers with outrageously well produced drum tracks, and I was always blown away by it...until I leanred about the world of sample packs. but remember, SOMEONE is programming those loops in the sample packs. It is attainable, but it will probably take a long period of persistent effort to be able to reach that level.
Old 19th December 2014
  #24
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I almost always record/make my own samples.
I find it hard to listen to my tracks afterwards, if i didn't make almost every single bit myself.
Old 19th December 2014
  #25
Wildfunk
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
Don't get me wrong of course you can program your own dope drum loops but how long will that take , some of these loop libraries are so good you will never be able to compete unless your an expert percussionist or drummer.
What "complex" drumloops are you talking about? I thought you just produce Techno/House?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
As producers theses days we wear a lot of hats , especially when trying to be original and now I'm starting to think the one place you can get help and still be original is drum loops.
You focus too much on the drums. If you want to be original create an unique lead sound and/or use your own voice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
That may explain why most EDM or whatever sounds the same today because they never had to focus on harmony they know a secret about drums , thats is if you have dope slamming drums people will dance no matter what.
That's because the majority of the "producers" can't create harmonies. So they focus on the drums only. It's a pure technical part, so it's easy to learn for non-musicians.
Old 19th December 2014
  #26
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roc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fewture View Post
Using commercially made loops and even pre arranged drum kits is not ok for me. It means your creative choice has been chosen by someone else and that actually affects your process and affects your overall sound.

Having said that if you can do something creative with all that, then its fine, you have reinvented it (even then its getting blurry for me). But simply grabbing all your favourite loops that someone else made, and lining them up in the way you heard other tracks do it - thats BS.
And what make you the authority on whats acceptable and whats not and how can you tell that they didn't use sample loops or whatever . Nobody is on the dance floor criticizing a track because they think the song uses samples if so then thats whack because most party people will be to busy sweating to the music .

I hear what your saying but how do you know that your favorite producer or some of your favorite tracks are all hand crafted from scratch ?
You don't unless your in the studio from begging to end . How do you know they didn't just use sample loops for drums and put music on top . I'm not talking about commercial cheesy drums i'm talking about dope underground **** my friend .

I used to think the same way that my favorite producers made all of their **** by hand because it was so dam funky but it's not true . I had to do some investigating many producers higher session players and percussionist to do all the music and drums then the big DJ just slaps his name on it as if it was all his work . In many instances they don't even give credit to the session player in the credits and i can name some big big DJ/producers who do this right now .


I felt the same way as you for years and I'm telling you I feel many of these guys are using sample pack for loops and hits or whatever and I'm not talking commercial pop **** .

Some of the sample libraries coming out are not cheesy at all and this is coming from a guy who never buys them .

Of course if you do everything by hand thats great but you better also be great at sampling eqing compressing efxing etc... if you want your tracks to compete with the big boys or you could just use sample libraries for drums and save a lot of time energy and money .

Trust me the producers who are getting paid don't care what you me or anybody think because while your building drum kits from starch , eqin them to perfection , compressing them to the heavens and efxing them to picaso standars , the other guy is already off and running releasing **** .
Old 19th December 2014
  #27
Gear Head
 

Old 19th December 2014
  #28
Gear Head
 

I don't think @ fewture was saying it's not ok for anyone to ever use loops. I read it as pointing out that if you use loops then most production decisions have been made for you and it leaves you with little room to navigate.
Originally I tbought your post was about how to reach the level of programming/production/engineering that you hear in commercially available sample pack loops. If you want to open a can of worms about the validity of using them...it's a pointless argument and will just turn into heated nonsense.
I would argue, however, that the producers who really stand out and tend to be remembered over time are not using genre specific sample pack loops. Check out Omar-S, Levon Vincent, Radio Slave, Moodymann, Mr G, etc
Old 19th December 2014
  #29
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roc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildfunk View Post
What "complex" drumloops are you talking about? I thought you just produce Techno/House?
Yes but I like everything to also be soulful and sometimes that means african and latin rhythms with polyrhythms and syncopation etc..... for drum grooves



Quote:
You focus too much on the drums. If you want to be original create an unique lead sound and/or use your own voice.
Your right and thats what I've been doing I travelled a long hard road of music theory and chord progression but drums are still so important to make people dance as you know .


Quote:
That's because the majority of the "producers" can't create harmonies. So they focus on the drums only. It's a pure technical part, so it's easy to learn for non-musicians.
Yes and could this be why the dance seen is dominated mostly by drums (specially techno) and not harmony melody because mostly non musicians are running the show these days except for some soulful house music that tends to be full of harmony ?
This is interesting because now that i think about it , obviously techno and house music is not new it's been around for a long time now but IMHO the tracks that have been coming out in the past5 -10 years don't have that same long lasting appeal like the classics in that music . I guess time will tell but thats another topic isn't it .
Old 19th December 2014
  #30
Wildfunk
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
IMHO the tracks that have been coming out in the past5 -10 years don't have that same long lasting appeal like the classics in that music.
No surprise! Their tracks have no "content" (only drums, risers, effects).

But again: Don't focus on the drums! Focus on a strong melody instead!

Just an early house example from 1986:
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