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What % of released edm tracks are using sample packs for drum loop! groove , etc ?
Old 19th December 2014
  #31
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roc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by halfmachine View Post
I don't think @ fewture was saying it's not ok for anyone to ever use loops. I read it as pointing out that if you use loops then most production decisions have been made for you and it leaves you with little room to navigate.
Ok I read it diffrent but I stand corrected .

Quote:
Originally I tbought your post was about how to reach the level of programming/production/engineering that you hear in commercially available sample pack loops.
Ok lets say it is can you please explain the process ?


Quote:
I would argue, however, that the producers who really stand out and tend to be remembered over time are not using genre specific sample pack loops. Check out Omar-S, Levon Vincent, Radio Slave, Moodymann, Mr G, etc
Yea I know most of those guys and yea there pretty good .
Didn't Moodyman make a whole career off of sampling maybe not genre specific but samples non the less and I believe he goes a step further than me using libraries for only drums to he actually samples the musical elements I believe , correct me if I'm wrong ? So on that premise according to what fewture says above (that your defending) wouldn't moodyman be considered BS ?
Old 19th December 2014
  #32
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Dynamikemusic's Avatar
Many years ago a drum machine could deliver all the drums and percussion just as clean as they are. Nowadays there's a whole processing chain and tweaking involved (besides virtual instruments btw). Most producers don't take the time anymore to create everything from scrach. And it's also no longer necessary with all the presets, soundbanks and samplepacks out there. You can still give it your own touch with layering and fx. Be creative.

Some examples (there's more of course):
Snap + fx > several claps and snares with a small delay so it hits just before the kick, preceded by a reversed reverb or some white noise (if I'm right Timbaland started with this trick)
Gated snare impact > already an 80's trick from Phil Collins but Eric Prydz did something similar and SHM made it famous, a big snare hit with a big gated reverb
White noise 'crash' > seems real crashes are a bit outdated
Tonal percussion > clicks, plops, stuff inspired by toms, cowbells, woodblocks etc.
Snare roll edits > going up, going down, fx tweaks etc.

Vengeance is popular yes but there are better ones (and 24 bit HQ). Check Loopmasters.com for example. At the end, the drums won't 'make' your track. Maybe a particular kick but that's it. Synths and vox are more important (like someone mentioned before). So I totally understand why people don't pay the same attention to drums anymore.
Old 19th December 2014
  #33
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
So on that premise according to what fewture says above (that your defending) wouldn't moodyman be considered BS ?
I think there is a big difference between Moodymann's sampling techniques and producers who are making tracks by just stacking a few loops from a 'Deep House' sample pack. That is my opinion anyway. When you listen to Moodymann you might think 'I'll just sample some old disco/soul/funk records and throw some 909 samples on top and itll be brilliant.' Its deceptively difficult. Producers like Moodymann or Levon Vincent, who are the subjects of much online production discussion, spent YEARS working at their sound.
Old 19th December 2014
  #34
Wildfunk
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfmachine View Post
Producers like Moodymann or Levon Vincent, who are the subjects of much online production discussion, spent YEARS working at their sound.
They work on their own sound while others jump from genre to genre and from trend to trend. In the end producers like Moodyman are masters someday and the others maybe have produced "everything" but still have no own signature sound.
Old 19th December 2014
  #35
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Most all are using samples, any live drum sound you hear has to be a sample. All breaks are samples. Very few make drum sounds from scratch on a synth, that's more for those who love drum sound design. Drum machines are just boxes of samples, there's nothing more noble about using a drum machine than a sample pack, same thing.

Loops? Some use loops, others prefer to find their own grooves. Though there's creativity to be found in cutting up and layering loops too. Again, that's what breakbeats are all about.

You can get really creative laying samples for a sound of your own. I wouldn't take the mentality that you need to design drums from scratch based on some kind of self-imposed principal. You don't need to make your own basketball to play basketball. .

I personally take a "the end is all that matters" approach and will use any and every tool at my disposal to reach the desired end goal.
Old 19th December 2014
  #36
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roc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by halfmachine View Post
I think there is a big difference between Moodymann's sampling techniques and producers who are making tracks by just stacking a few loops from a 'Deep House' sample pack. That is my opinion anyway.
Cool I see your point but isn't that exactly what he's doing tho , stacking loops on top of each other in his own original way but still sampled loops non the less or am I missing something .
Old 19th December 2014
  #37
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roc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newguy1 View Post
Most all are using samples, any live drum sound you hear has to be a sample. All breaks are samples. Very few make drum sounds from scratch on a synth, that's more for those who love drum sound design. Drum machines are just boxes of samples, there's nothing more noble about using a drum machine than a sample pack, same thing.

Loops? Some use loops, others prefer to find their own grooves. Though there's creativity to be found in cutting up and layering loops too. Again, that's what breakbeats are all about.

You can get really creative laying samples for a sound of your own. I wouldn't take the mentality that you need to design drums from scratch based on some kind of self-imposed principal. You don't need to make your own basketball to play basketball. .

I personally take a "the end is all that matters" approach and will use any and every tool at my disposal to reach the desired end goal.
This
thank you
Old 19th December 2014
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
Cool I see your point but isn't that exactly what he's doing tho , stacking loops on top of each other in his own original way but still sampled loops non the less or am I missing something .
Yes and no. He might use sampled loops but not from a deep house sample pack. He did it the hard way by finding the loop on a record and making it into something new. his process is different, which is why his drums sound different to that of average club fodder.
Old 19th December 2014
  #39
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wagtunes's Avatar
Fascinating subject! Me? I'm terrible with drum grooves. My forte is melody and harmony. Crafting a groove for me is slow torture. I hear some of these drum tracks and I'm floored. Nice to hear that maybe these people aren't designing these from scratch and instead are just slapping loops together?

So where do you get these killer loops? What kind of money are we talking about? They have to help my dance tracks sound a little better.
Old 19th December 2014
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildfunk View Post
They work on their own sound while others jump from genre to genre and from trend to trend. In the end producers like Moodyman are masters someday and the others maybe have produced "everything" but still have no own signature sound.
common issue that is getting worse... you nailed it on the mouth!
Old 19th December 2014
  #41
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Have a look at all these EDM artists who have made sample packs.

Loopmasters Artist Series, Artist Sample CDs, Producer Loops, Artist Sound LIbraries

Do you think they just got some loops from other loopmasters sample pack or do you think they actually had something to do with the sound design?

A Guy Called Gerald is on there. Do you think he used drum loops on a sample CD to make Voodoo Ray?
Old 19th December 2014
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Reynolds View Post
Have a look at all these EDM artists who have made sample packs.

Loopmasters Artist Series, Artist Sample CDs, Producer Loops, Artist Sound LIbraries

Do you think they just got some loops from other loopmasters sample pack or do you think they actually had something to do with the sound design?

A Guy Called Gerald is on there. Do you think he used drum loops on a sample CD to make Voodoo Ray?
both of course... I think they repack others loops and prob create their own... Some of them are hard to make, but most are not... little delay, reverb, and off time hits...
Old 20th December 2014
  #43
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roc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ Reynolds View Post
Have a look at all these EDM artists who have made sample packs.

Loopmasters Artist Series, Artist Sample CDs, Producer Loops, Artist Sound LIbraries
Dude your proving my point .

Quote:
Do you think they just got some loops from other loopmasters sample pack or do you think they actually had something to do with the sound design?
Let me ask you a question , how the hell would you know if they did or didn't ? Think about it . I'm sure many people who have browsed multiply sample library have come across a few that where the same loops .

Quote:
A Guy Called Gerald is on there. Do you think he used drum loops on a sample CD to make Voodoo Ray?
Ok no but your missing the point .

A Guy Called Gerald is already a legend in the game but still feels the need to put his name on a sample pack why ? Because there selling thats why , so my point is this must be a lucrative market meaning somebody is buying all of these sample pack so my message is to the producer at home struggling to get tracks out because theirs don't have that pro quality punch you need to be successful to think about using some sample packs for drums to help you get in the game because your neighbor just sold his 5th track of the year while your building your own custom sample libraries .
Old 20th December 2014
  #44
Gear Head
 

It all depends what you are trying to accomplish. If you're goal is simply to 'get in the game," then probably sample packs are the way to go for you.
If however you have other ambitions that don't have anything to do with commercial success - crafting a sound, expressing something artistically, pushing boundaries, etc - then I would say don't worry about what anyone thinks or trends or whatver, just follow your passion and work hard.
That said, I personaly got successful by not giving a **** what was going on around me and doing my thing.
Old 20th December 2014
  #45
The confusion comes from folks thinking today's music is professional, lol


It's awesome when you can quit clearly tell when the ghost has stopped ghosting. Anyone heard armin new tune hystereo? That proves my point.

Lots of things will need to change and one thing is all these horrible sample packs.
Old 20th December 2014
  #46
Wildfunk
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
Let me ask you a question , how the hell would you know if they did or didn't ? Think about it . I'm sure many people who have browsed multiply sample library have come across a few that where the same loops .
I've bought many "artist packs" in the past and all of them were crap. Looks like they've just put only their unused (bad) loops and sounds in the packs, not the really good ones which they are famous for.

Also very generic drum stuff in the packs, nothing you could not do yourself by using the free packs from ...KB6.de... Samples, Drumsamples (Drum Samples) Vintage for free download...

I'm collecting samples and loops since the early 90's and guess how many loops are in my "loops"-folder? Only 90! 30 of them are from sample cds/packs and the other 60 loops are ripped from classic funk vinyls (60's - 70's). I've never used any of them, they are just there for inspiration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
...using some sample packs for drums to help you get in the game because your neighbor just sold his 5th track of the year while your building your own custom sample libraries .
But your "busy" neighbour did not get his label deals just because of the drums
Old 20th December 2014
  #47
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
Let me ask you a question , how the hell would you know if they did or didn't ? Think about it . I'm sure many people who have browsed multiply sample library have come across a few that where the same loops .
Have a read of sample packs terms of service. They say you can't use the samples to make commercial sample packs. You would think they wouldn't recycle other sample packs to avoid prosecution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
A Guy Called Gerald is already a legend in the game but still feels the need to put his name on a sample pack why ? Because there selling thats why , so my point is this must be a lucrative market meaning somebody is buying all of these sample pack so my message is to the producer at home struggling to get tracks out because theirs don't have that pro quality punch you need to be successful to think about using some sample packs for drums to help you get in the game because your neighbor just sold his 5th track of the year while your building your own custom sample libraries .
Its not all about getting tracks out. The main reason you should make your own beats is it's fun! I've never met someone who makes dance music that doesn't like make beats. Most people I know casually refer to producing as "making beats". Don't be fooled into think most dance music is made with drum loops. Some is but most people use loops to fill things out a bit. It's not even that hard making your own beats, although it took me 10 years to go from using samples with the odd loop to making 90% of my drums with my modular.
Old 20th December 2014
  #48
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It's either fine, or it isn't , to appropriate other peoples work in yours. It's either fine to source and use the same sounds as others, or it isn't. You can't start grading it.

So its fine to go crate digging and use whole chunks of other peoples records, but not use some bought drums. It's fine to take bits of some of the best drum recordings ever, from Jazz and Funk, cut 'em up, stitch them back together and pass off the inherent quality as yours. 'Cos he used an MPC or whatever. Bull - 90% of the sound is the original recording and playing.
Thousands of records using the same 'Amen' - cool. Kids using 'EDM' loops - not cool.

People pleading, begging crying for Roland to make a machine that sounds identical in every microscopical way to the overused original - cool apparently because who wants to sound in any way different to the gods?
Kids downloading that midrangey explosive snare - not cool - you should build you own sounds from scratch using oscillators, additive synthesis and fourier analysis.
Thats what they did in the old days - if next doors studio had a Linn, they went - right - break out the modular - better start again - I don't want us sounding like that guy.
Old 20th December 2014
  #49
Gear Addict
 
Der Laborant's Avatar
 

roc(OP?), did you check this one I posted?

Beat Dissected - Attack Magazine

Take a look at it, try yourself and do what Wildfunk says, focus more on the melody and progressions, I mean as I see it myself techno is about rhytm and even house with that nice triplet grooves go right to the ear, but it gets boring pretty quick if you don't have original melodies and progressions or fx on top of it

Soulful Deep House - Attack Magazine
Old 20th December 2014
  #50
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wagtunes's Avatar
Okay, I had no idea what these "sample packs" were so I went and checked them out.

OMG, really? People actually use these in their own songs? They're almost complete songs in themselves some of these loops, complete with drums, percussion, bass, and even a melodic riff in some cases. The only thing left to do in some cases is just slap your own topline over it.

How does anybody use these things and even come close to sounding original?

Is THIS what our "art" has come down to?

Old 20th December 2014
  #51
Gear Nut
 
bluefunk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
i'm talking about dope underground **** my friend
LOLZ
Old 20th December 2014
  #52
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Bath Knight's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildfunk View Post
I've bought many "artist packs" in the past and all of them were crap. Looks like they've just put only their unused (bad) loops and sounds in the packs, not the really good ones which they are famous for.
Yep.

Anyway,

Cough, hip, cough, hop.

It's down to you what you want to do, if you're comfortable with it, your comfortable with it, others want a higher degree of self expression, some peoples favourite colour is blue some peoples is not. As long as you keep it real and acknowledge to yourself whats your work and whats not, I see no problem.

I synthesise everything, not primarly because I feel I should, but more because it gives me full control and because i'm working on my own direction. For instance, I want my hats to sound as far as possible from 909 hats but still serve the rhythmic function, etc.

I think the chemical brothers answered this question best..


Old 20th December 2014
  #53
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xanax's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
Cool I see your point but isn't that exactly what he's doing tho , stacking loops on top of each other in his own original way but still sampled loops non the less or am I missing something .



..it takes skill and hard work to do what he does.. he's digging through +30 years of music history to freak that loop.. plus he's using keys, drum machines & live bass/guitar. it's pretty much the complete opposite work ethic of using a bunch of cookie cutter loops from a "contruction kit" and calling it a day..
Old 20th December 2014
  #54
Gear Addict
 
Bath Knight's Avatar
 

Some of you just wont less this go...

Session musicians,
Orchestras playing others music,
Studio engineers,
Song writers,
sound designers,

Think about these.
Old 20th December 2014
  #55
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roc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xanax View Post


..it takes skill and hard work to do what he does.. he's digging through +30 years of music history to freak that loop.. plus he's using keys, drum machines & live bass/guitar. it's pretty much the complete opposite work ethic of using a bunch of cookie cutter loops from a "contruction kit" and calling it a day..
He is so OVERRATED yes I said it and that video is a disgrace and this is coming from a cat who is underground in the true essence of what it was suppose to mean.

I know you don't know me but still the fact remains you guys put him up on a pedestal but you can dress it up however you want but he is sampling every fukin thing . I got over 10,000 vinyl records of dope **** from the blues all the way up to now across Genres , very few cats can fuk with my vinyl collection . I have whole catalogs of vinyl from labels many lust after thats why I can't give in to the BS that some of these well known dj/producers try to sell .

Trust me my friend if any of Moodyman stuff just so happens to blow up in a major way he would be sued before the morning 10 time over , he's just been able to fly under the radar , thats why he doesn't want to sell to many records think about it ,he said it him self in the video . He is an originator at what he does so I'll give him that but him and many other dj/producers that many seem to rave over are so overrated .

Some of you don't make sense , so let me get this right , so it's ok for moodyman to sample every fukin thing because he's up on his mpc all night but it's not ok to use a sample pack ? Get for real it's the same fukin thing just used differently . I could play you a track and you would say O it's alright it's preaty cool but soon as I say hey moodyman made that you'll say O wow it's fukin epic but if I say hey that kid in the basement next door to you made it you would say yea its ok but he's just sampling stuff , haha get for real .
Old 20th December 2014
  #56
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tsutek's Avatar
 

What are you actually trying to say then? You looking for validation on using ready made samples from someone? Just go ahead already, the labels are waiting. If you just want to aim for success in the music business, you do it by using whatever means necessary, right?

I am having a hard time understanding your point. Everyone knows that using sample packs is the fastest way to "sound professional", so many cats who just want success use em.. Are you calling every alternative to this process "being in denial"???
Old 20th December 2014
  #57
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roc's Avatar
 

Remember when house used to sound like this ?
I don't care if the drums are sample hits, loops , or a real 909 it's just dope thats all that matters .



We got a whole bunh of so called DJs who make a bunch of BS productions flying around the world spreading that corny $hit ,why because they can't play a chord to save there life so they make a bunch of drums with bleeps and blops GTFOOH .
Now I suppose to think your on the level wit Kerry Chandler a real producer .

You see Europe got all these DJ,producers thinking there special but secretly behind close doors they know the truth . The truth is production skill have falling way down especially in the US . Now Germany has most of the dope **** now and places like that . The same thing happened with Jazz think about the Jazz legends in the US it was so many off them I mean huge real legends but the generations did not pick up on it so it's almost over for jazz in the US but places like Japan Russia , Germany they picked up on it and running with it , aging I'm talking about dope $hit .

So to me if a producer want to use a sample pack for drums go right a head why not just make it your own . A octatrack can fuk up a sample loop so bad in a good way know body would ever know it's a sample .

Now if your content on making beats in your basement until the end of time then thats fine but it's nothing wrong with trying to be successful doing something you love umm it's called a dream .

O yea and I'm tired of all the cliche you hear about producing around hear , like just do it for the love
don't do it for money
don't try to be famous etc..
this is all BS

What wrong with being famous getting paid for doing what you love ever hear of the NBA , NFL , NHL , MLB etc...

Now if your content on making beats in your basement until the end of time then thats fine but it's nothing wrong with trying to be successful doing something you love umm it's called a dream .

So don't you dare show me somebody like moodyman as an example to follow .
Wow The Matrix movie was real .
Old 20th December 2014
  #58
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xanax's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by roc View Post
He is so OVERRATED yes I said it and that video is a disgrace and this is coming from a cat who is underground in the true essence of what it was suppose to mean.

I know you don't know me but still the fact remains you guys put him up on a pedestal but you can dress it up however you want but he is sampling every fukin thing . I got over 10,000 vinyl records of dope **** from the blues all the way up to now across Genres , very few cats can fuk with my vinyl collection . I have whole catalogs of vinyl from labels many lust after thats why I can't give in to the BS that some of these well known dj/producers try to sell .

so wait you're a true essence underground artist with over 10,000 vinyl records yet you use sample packs?!
..dude you just discredited the entire hip-hop & house production history as they are pretty much built on sampling records... what you must realise however is that there is an art form to it with it's own set of rules.. the first one being don't sample any obvious material.. second being flip that sample up... go listen to Shadow's Endtroducing, whole album uses record samples.. yet it's an original masterpiece... using a sample pack is just lazy & uncreative. not to mention 99% of those pre-made loops is hot garbage. sampling records in a creative way and making them fit is actually a lot harder then it may seem. having a deep record collection is just the base. doesn't mean at all you've got the chops (no pun intended) to make a moodymann, theo parrish, madlib or rjd2 type record..
Old 20th December 2014
  #59
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roc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsutek View Post
What are you actually trying to say then? You looking for validation on using ready made samples from someone? Just go ahead already, the labels are waiting. If you just want to aim for success in the music business, you do it by using whatever means necessary, right?

I am having a hard time understanding your point. Everyone knows that using sample packs is the fastest way to "sound professional", so many cats who just want success use em.. Are you calling every alternative to this process "being in denial"???
No this is really just a message to producers in the basement attic wherever who don't understand why there tracks don't slam and hit the way they need to , to be successful and compete , just to let them know that many pro producers also use sample packs and don't feel bad for using them , you may already understand this but many do not .
Old 20th December 2014
  #60
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xanax's Avatar
^ BS.. how about learning about mixing & engineering? most pros & many amateurs rely on that to get their sonics up.. not sample packs.
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