12Tone,

allow me to remind you that your repeated false statements about "ripping off" and "copying" etc. is called slander or defamation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation

While it is perfectly fine for you to criticize me and the company, I would at least expect that you respect the law on these matters.

In the past 20 years we haven't lost one single IP court case. If you like to learn more about the legal history, please find the link to an earlier post.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11954278-post158.html

Thank you.

Uli

FWIW I couldn't give a hoot about their practices or ethics. I've been genuinely excited about them making synths but had no interest in the DM12. With their resources they can accomplish a lot with forward thinking.

I'm not anti-Behringer I just think doing a Model D clone is probably the most regressive move they could make. A 3 osc mono with no borderline slanderous hype before it's even built? Of course I'd buy one if the sound was there and it offered something unique.

theyre all Freegans

Hey Uli, I respect you even tone. Thank you, it's a good reminder to do the same...I'm often remiss at times on that part.

Please believe me, sincerely, I have no personal beef with you as an individual.

As you've surmised, I do not agree with certain things I feel weren't cool with how your company has conducted itself in the past. It is not my intent for you to feel as though I'm at any way purposely malicious, or committing slander or defamation. Pretty much all of what I've said about Behringer has come within the flow, vicissitudes and happenstance of the discourse/responses within the threads.

But I will respect your how you feel. Is saying 'I'm not cool with it' OK? If so, in any future remarks, I will only say I'm not cool with this or that.

BTW, I think you have incredible sway, and a certain charisma that attracts throngs of people to your defense and cause. I really hope you could channel that to inspire originality and creativity, as I think that would be of great benefit to everyone, including all your detractors.

peace, and cheers...

"We haven't lost one single IP court case."

How many have you settled?

How many times has Moog Music, either the first one or the current one, been sued for IP infringement?

FYI - Settling law suits can mean anything. Often it means that both sides decided to just walk away because it's cheaper, easier and the right business decision.

Anyway, back to the clone, I personally would like to see some changes to the original design or additional features, for example an additional VCO or VCF. I don’t really need a keyboard version because I have too many already. I would never shell out 4 grand for a Moog and I hope that Beringer can release one below 500.

While I don't disagree with you. May I say there are a few that play synths with their left hands and tweak with the right. I would love to see a synth with the mod wheels on the right and not the left which appeals to the majority of righties out there!

Not in the Roland / Boss suit. Although the settlement details are confidential, Behringer did end up changing the look of their pedals to the satisfaction of Roland, so it's pretty easy to infer they figured they would be on the losing end of that battle.

As for the Peavey suit, I'd like to know how that came out.

After being sued by Peavey, Behringer counter-sued, stating that they themselves tested Peavey's products and they didn't comply w the FCC guidelines (i.e., they "ratted out" Peavey).

They alleged that Peavey was a menace because companies that "bypass regulatory testing don't only break the law, they create potential risks for consumers and create an unfair competitive advantage over manufacturers who spend on testing fees and expensive, compliance-relevant components."

Which is extremely funny, because 5 yrs earlier, Behringer was fined $1 million USD for "willfull violation" of the very same FCC guidelines.

https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders...C-06-13A1.html

What I find amusing about the whole Mini moog clone thing is not many people have one, an original or reissue, compared to how many of us would love one the number of actual owners would be minuscule. There's certainly a huge amount more without than with one. What's even weirder is that as most of us don't have a Mini Moog, why is there is even any hesitation to saying yes to a cheaper affordable one..? Do all these people who don't have one but want one live in some kind of twilight zone or what..? So do people who don't have one, but want one, but cannot afford one, not want one because of what...? help me out here..?

In defence of all opinions and/or facts expressed here, money is truly the problem here.
Buisines is, by its very nature, dirty, unethical and amoral. I mean, to hell with synths!
We need tu Buy Water for fvck sake! Is there anything more slimey than selling knowladge?
Well, the modern paradigm of social mechanics and Worth are so fvcked up, the thought of such outcry because of a hypothetical, launchpad idea for a synth is laughable as it is heartbreaking! To all the best.

Why do you want a Mini Moog?

For the sound? Get the Legend or the Monark for $99 USD, put a blindfold on, and you won't be able to tell the difference.

If you want a Mini Moog for more than the sounds, then you're likely a gear fetishist who wants the knobs, the wood, the look and feel of the real Moog, in which case, no hardware substitute will truly do the trick.

In this day and age, software models probably get as close if not closer to the classic sound than cheap hardware knockoffs, and that goes for Moog, LA2A's, 1073's, etc.

I'd love a cheaper Minimoog clone from a major manufacturing company, so go for it.

Settling a court case is not proof of anything. It only means that both parties decided on a monetary amount for whatever CIVIL conflict the 2 companies once believed they had. All businesses require income to exist and its employees are obligated to provide that. Roland agreed to their cut of whatever had once believed to have occurred that caused them to lose current or future sales. It's not like the designer who actually made that particular intellectual property would directly get any of that money, but down the line employees were in fact paid their salary with money Behringer had already made by selling actual products used by actual people.
Behringer posts here for the same reason Roland files a lawsuit against Behringer. It's practical publicity and marketing and has nothing to do with actual integrity. If Behringer does make something that I already know will bother you and I can afford it I will probably be more likely to get it actually...

In the spirit of transparency, allow me to answer. Apologies for the lengthy reply:

1.) Roland:
There is an often referenced dispute with Roland over their claim on stomp boxes. A little-known fact in that case is that I had personally met the founder of Roland, the esteemed Mr. Kakehashi, and visited his house in Hamamatsu. I shared with him the plans to build low-cost stomp boxes and he even gave me advice on how to introduce them into the market. Once we had our designs ready, I asked the head of our Japan sales office to visit him, share the drawings and ask for his opinion. I was told that Mr. Kakehashi raised no objections and hence we proceeded.
The Roland US office however had a different view and filed a suit over trade dress (appearance), but not over patents or technology which is often claimed. The slight change of the overall appearance resolved the dispute, however we clearly regret this misunderstanding.

2.) Peavey lawsuit: The outcome is here:
MUSIC Group Wins Major Patent Case against Peavey Electronics | Behringer News

3.) Peavey FCC. Our allegations in the lawsuit against Peavey were verified by the FCC and they were fined US$ 250.000.
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/...-14-196A1.html

4.) Behringer FCC. This is a matter where we clearly screwed up and in 2006 we got severely fined. Here is the background:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8805287-post92.html

However we are in good company:

New Sensor (Electro Harmonix) US$450,000
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/...-13-706A1.html

Peavey US$250,000
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/...-14-196A1.html

Rane US$61,500
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/...13-2047A1.html

PreSonus US$125,000
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/...-11-754A1.html

Loud (Mackie, EAW, Ampeg, etc.) US$ 85,000
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/...12-2009A1.html

American Music & Sound US$ 72,000
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/...-12-270A1.html

Sennheiser US$7,000
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/...09-1031A1.html

St. Louis Music (Crate) US$ 42,000
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/...A-05-42A1.html

Marshall Amplification US$ 7,000
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/...11-1468A1.html

Samson US$ 35,000
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/...C-04-39A1.html

Monster Cable US$ 12,500
http://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/...09-1050A1.html

Here is the full overview:
EB - Equipment Marketing Violations

We learned from this experience, and in turn invested many millions of dollars in our own EMC and Safety labs and implemented a massive series of process enhancements that ensure such an oversight can never happen again. All our products are now tested in our own emissions lab and certified by external labs to ensure compliance, and the certification procedure is baked into our product development process.
We also have an automated system whereby all product documentation is automatically updated based on the certification status. And this also goes for the UL Safety approval processes.

I hope this provides some clarity.

Uli

a few things
a.Where is the Behringer Odyssey?
b.Behringer will for sure put DCO's on their synths. They cant risk having thousands of phone calls from kids claiming their new synth is out of tune.
c.Moog, time to re calculate your model d reissue price?

It falls under the want but don't need category, so does the Two Voice Pro.

Sonics is only part of the Model D charm and like people have said the software is pretty close in that sense. Vermona gets pretty close sonically too.

Why do you so badly want one at a cut price? There are so many discontinued and never going to be reissued synths that could be reborn via Behringer. The whole concept is just to stir the pot and it's been done before...

This thread and idea is just a circle jerk. Reboot the 2600 if you really need to clone an obvious one. Come up with a synth that has a playing experience equal to the Model D while being it's own thing. It's not like there isn't room for improvement on a synth that is pretty limited in this day and age.

Let's get back on track. The issue here is a new synth. This site is called Gear..... not whiners. So we should all be happy. Take the protectionist political ideas elsewhere.

Thread unfolllowed.

Uli, I'll stay up to date from your website

Much rather see something made that is no longer made like the Oscar or 2600

<deleted by moderator>

I take it you haven't played Deepmind-12? I have and I think it's one of the most innovative synths of recent times. The interface, modulation possibilities and sound are all top notch. I can't imagine anyone who has played it wouldn't want to see more synths by them.

The Deepmind 12 is innovative and certainly not a copy. So that's a positive development IMO.

edit: oops seems like Randomized already said that

Actually, it's called libel. Slander would be if he spoke it.

the OSCar was quite unstable, fat sound but unreliable. I'm using the ImpOSCar software plugin, close enough without the headaches.
there is a 2600 DIY clone and another project to sell an assembled one, do a search, it's been discussed.

CS-80, Jupiter 8, ARP 2600 are big, complicated synths, not very well suited for mass production (if you want a 1:1 clone). you'll have to go with 'boutique' companies making a limited run I think. And those are around.

This is extremely bad form on your part, Tony. First you go through and upvote every post which is critical of Behringer, then you attack Behringer on Matrixsynth, and now these posts.

Are you not under the employ of DSI? What makes you think that it's OK to go on a forum and attack another manufacturer the way that you are doing here? Add to this your needling of the Relic 6 and it's enough to make me want to sell my Prophet 12 and swear off all DSI products going forward.

< moderator message - you've made your point now move on please >

And look guys... even if Behringer decides to produce a Minimoog clone which is completely HYPOTHETICAL at this point in time. It will be a different product than the Moog reissue.
I mean.. the moog is a real 1:1 clone, handsoldered thru-hole, with exactly the same circuit boards, in a case that is exactly like the old one. You pay for having a real Moog, not just the name. Just like people pay top dollar for a vintage synth. We can argue about sound until the cows come home but the hardware will be different.

@ uli please make something innovative? A modern synth, or maybe sequencer or sampler, not a clone, please. The Deepmind was a good start!

Even something different with a dual sequencer like the Oscar would be great.

Ok, seriously, what is wrong with these weekend justice crusaders?!?

Dude, if you - for WHATEVER REASON - don't like a company & their products, just don't buy anything from them. And move on.

I play Ibanez SR basses exclusively - because out of all the brands and models that I've tried, only SRs feel like a glove. Now should I feel ashamed that eons ago they got sued by Fender? Lol, who care, man

Play whatever you like and feels right - regardless of the brand name. And leave the legal battles to lawyers

Uli, I like that you are making Synthesizers now, I really do. Had quite some Behringer equipment over the years and I was always satisfied with it.

However....I find the concept of a Minimoog totally boring. Even the Model D re-issue of Moog itself.

For interesting and flexible Monosynth-concepts in a budget price-region, look also at cheap synths like the MFB Nanozwerg, the Doepfer Dark Energy II or the Arturia Microbrute or Minibrute.

What I want from a modern analogue Monosynth: Multimode-Filter, Patchpoints, full ADSR, an internal Sequencer which understands analogue clock and MIDI and has swing and all must be in a very small layout so that I can fit in my backpack to take with me or put it my drawer at home when I need my desk for other purposes. Also Patch-Saving with lightened Encoders like on a Slim Phatty would be nice.

What I don't need: a Keyboard and those Minimoog-Envelopes which miss the Release.

The sound itself of a Minimoog, well I can produce it sufficiently enough for my taste with plugins like Monark and DIVA. It's not a holy grail sound for my taste so I can live without a hardware Moog or Moog-Clone, if it doesn't have all the modern features.

now there's a good idea