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Corona Virus / SARS / nCoV2019
Old 16th February 2020
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papanate View Post
Still around here in NC I'm seeing people with Masks all the time. The RDU Airport is particularly silly with a certain percentage of travelers wearing masks.
From January to June every year, I get flown out on Thursday and back home on Friday night every week to play piano for dance classes in different states. Yesterday I got back from Dallas, the week before was Pittsburgh, before that New Orleans, before that Santa Clara, etc. I'm in airports two days a week for like 6 months straight. All I see are tons of people wearing masks. I started taking pictures of them when I see them in airports and making photo albums of it because I find it entertaining how fast the panic spreads.

It reminds me back when the media was pushing their bullsh!t about how NYC was gonna be hit with an anthrax attack and I used to see tons of people riding the train with the same masks.

I haven't paid attention to any media in ages. It's all bullsh!t to push an agenda anyway, or to cause mass panic for clicks. Media's dying a slow death and they'll do anything to get a click.
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Old 16th February 2020
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
I haven't paid attention to any media in ages. It's all bullsh!t to push an agenda anyway, or to cause mass panic for clicks. Media's dying a slow death and they'll do anything to get a click.
I agree that "media" is pushing agendas all the time. Where I live, one of the agendas at the moment is "it's just the flu" and "we are well prepared" and "the risk is neglegible" and "you dont need a mask" (there arent any anyway)

But I wonder what your explanation is why the Chinese government is ruining their economy like that. Or why companies have stopped production in China. Or why you can't have parcel delivered to China anymore. Or why you can't fly to most parts of China. Why they've locked in or restricted movement of 400 million people. Or why Vietnam has started to do the same to 10,000 people.
Why Japan and other countries have declared health emergency.
Etc. What's your explanation for all that?
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Old 16th February 2020
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
What's your source for thinking that the pangolin association is baseless....do you have a dislike of that particular animal, or are you dismissing animal genesis as a model in general ?

Accepting any news agency report as credible implies an assumption they have been diligent in fact-checking before publication...which may not be warranted, depending on the information source.

Today's news reports of an 80 year old dying from the disease as first European fatality suggest that spread and danger are not at a high level outside Hubei/Wuhan.

The WHO is concerned however, claiming not enough is yet known, and that China is considering it an internal matter and not sharing information freely enough to facilitate international planning and response.
There are several sources that I find credible saying the thing has genetic attributes you can only manufacture in a lab with pshuttle methods. That means it is man made. Not from animals. And apparently it also has 'gain of function' properties.

And now chinese doctors report it can reinfect and kill very quickly when it does by way of causing a cytokine storm. And that they are struggling with both false negatives and false positives as the thing almost behaves as mysteriously as lymes.

Feels like a pretty dark device. The only 'hope' for caucasians is it apparently works on a protein that chinese people have much more of, so could prove to not be as dangerous for caucasians. Unless that part is bollocks. Who knows.
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Old 16th February 2020
  #154
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Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Yes, and hence the sudden interest in harvesting and analyzing the blood of those who have had the virus and survived...since they will likely be a source of antibodies which have successfully fought it off, and allowed the host to live ! "That which does not kill me makes me stronger"
Seems in this case it's more like "round one sets your system up in a way that when it reinfects you the second time it just nudges you and you're done"......
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Old 16th February 2020
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Feels like a pretty dark device. The only 'hope' for caucasians is it apparently works on a protein that chinese people have much more of, so could prove to not be as dangerous for caucasians. Unless that part is bollocks. Who knows.
It sounds that you're suggesting it's a Chinese germ/bio warfare type of experiment that has escaped by accident into the local population ? I guess anything is possible, especially given the dearth of data that WHO and western authorities have to work with. It might also explain the greater mortality of Chinese national citizens vs Caucasians ....still too early to know, but if/ when greater spread occurs outside of China the picture could be expected to focus with more clarity ? It also sounds like classic conspiracy theory fodder to me....
Old 16th February 2020
  #156
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I am in no way suggesting that. I am talking about the genome the chinese government presented and it showing signs of being built in a lab, not by nature. The rest I mentioned is reports of its behaviour by wuhan doctors. That's all. What it all means I don't know. But I reckon if we are told this is something unfortunate from animals we are being lied to.
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Old 16th February 2020
  #157
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You can catch the virus from Neumann 47,67 mics due to multiple people singing. I’m happy to dispose of them safely if u want to send them on to me.
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Old 16th February 2020
  #158
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Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
It sounds that you're suggesting it's a Chinese germ/bio warfare type of experiment that has escaped by accident into the local population ?
His reliable source seems to be InfoWars and has been debunked:

https://healthfeedback.org/claimrevi...s-is-man-made/

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/ba...bioengineered/

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/jam...iracy-vaccine/


Alistair
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Old 16th February 2020
  #159
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Ahaha nice one Alistair. No, I don't pay attention to Infowars bull****. Trust you to think that. And trust you to also buy into 'debunking sites' as full of truth. lol jeez.
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Old 16th February 2020
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Ahaha nice one Alistair. No, I don't pay attention to Infowars bull****. Trust you to think that. And trust you to also buy into 'debunking sites' as full of truth. lol jeez.
If you have a credible source, share it.

Alistair
Old 16th February 2020
  #161
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Fairly pointless, talking to a guy who thinks debunking sites are credible. Make your own mind up about what you think is credible.
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Old 16th February 2020
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I am in no way suggesting that. I am talking about the genome the chinese government presented and it showing signs of being built in a lab, not by nature. The rest I mentioned is reports of its behaviour by wuhan doctors. That's all. What it all means I don't know. But I reckon if we are told this is something unfortunate from animals we are being lied to.
I think you're drawing a pretty long bow there...there's a rich and verified history of animal hosts being the generous transmission vector to humans...from which point the herd behaviour of humans takes over in its typical way, and the animal link drops away

This is a repeated pattern year after year, and I'm sure there are also many more less intensely virulent strains which fail to take hold as SARS, avian flu, Ebola, Corona etc have done. We only get to hear of the severe and rapid-transmission ones....
Old 16th February 2020
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I think you're drawing a pretty long bow there...there's a rich and verified history of animal hosts being the generous transmission vector to humans...from which point the herd behaviour of humans takes over in its typical way, and the animal link drops away

This is a repeated pattern year after year, and I'm sure there are also many more less intensely virulent strains which fail to take hold as SARS, avian flu, Ebola, Corona etc have done. We only get to hear of the severe and rapid-transmission ones....
Maybe you are not hearing what I am saying. I am not saying things can't and haven't jumped from animals before. I am saying this thing seems to have a genome that can't exist without having been meddled with by humans.
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Old 16th February 2020
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Maybe you are not hearing what I am saying. I am not saying things can't and haven't jumped from animals before. I am saying this thing seems to have a genome that can't exist without having been meddled with by humans.
I say the jury's out, and more to the point there are cases now detected in several countries (Australia alone is about to bring home 24 cases from the cruise ship off Japan) so the forensic analysis can be carried out severally by medical research teams across the globe... completely independent of Beijing.

When the global findings are collated, we'll have verification (or otherwise) of your assertion...and with any luck some progress towards an antiviral treatment too ?
Old 16th February 2020
  #165
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
His reliable source seems to be InfoWars and has been debunked:
....

Alistair
What exactly are you arguining about? With what purpose?

Here's what I think is the truth: I don't know where it came from. And neither do you.
I'm not going to draw a conclusion, I find that premature.

Let's go briefly over the topic of where this came from:
There are three possibillities:
1. a random mutation of a zoonotic virus
2. an accidental release from a "gain of function" experiment from the BLS-4 in Wuhan
3. an attack with a biological weapon. yes. that is a serious possibility.

Let's take one of the "debunking" sources:
So.. that "healthfeedback.org" website is purposely giving one impression of the (ongoing) scientific discussion.
The "factcheck.org" I'm not going to even bother with, since that is just one smeared out strawman construction.
I'm more interested in reality.
Quote:

Aaron Irving, a virologist and senior research fellow at Duke-NUS Medical School, pointed out that the similarity between INS1378 and pShuttle-SN is actually low, with only a 67% match between the DNA sequences. Lyons-Weiler acknowledged this finding in his article, but InfoWars and other outlets did not.
I'm not buying this. 67% that is not "low". That is only 1.7% removed from a match with the SARS it's supposedly very different from. Sure, Lyons-Weiler has put in some caveats in his research. But that's not proof of one or the other.
Back to Healthfeedback.org:
Here's something that doesn't make sense:
Quote:
"Steven Salzburg, a computational biologist and professor at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine, highlighted that “the two aligned sequences are distantly related, but this would argue against [Lyons-Weiler’s] claim. If the insert came from a commercial vector, it would be near-identical.”
No, it doesn't have to be near-identical, unless you only regard this PShuttle technique. What they should be looking for is characteristics in the virus that make it different from the (harmless) bat SARS-like virus. If there's a piece of code that is different from the bat SARS-like virus, then it would be prudent to look at a genomic irregularity closely, instead of dismissing it. It doesn't seem to be the PShuttle sequence. Maybe it's something else, something modern? At least that's my take on it.

In fact a 30% change in genetic structure seems quite a lot (compared to the bat SARS-like virus it presumably originated from). a mutation which supposedly was random and made the virus "jump" species. Yes, it's possible, but the chance roughly 30% of it's genomic structure was changed in some random mutation, giving this virus many very different characteristics, that chance doesn't seem very high. The animal resevoir of the 2019-nCoV has not been found. Does it even exist? Maybe it does or did and the chinese destroyed it by accident? We just don't know.

Contrary to what seems to be suggested, these pathogens do not often "jump species". It is irregular. Therefore proving that this 2019-nCoV is a random mutation is needed, before drawing this conclusion.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2546865/
---
I would argue that it's not unimportant to look at the possibillity of this being some engineered virus. And it's not some "harmful rumor" or "conspiracy theory" to point at the existence of the biowarfare industry. It would finally raise some public attention to the large, government and private (contractor) bio-warfare programs, many of those in the United States, and the question if we, human beings, want our governments to experiment with these weapons, and engineer "gain-of-function" pathogens at all !!
https://www.nature.com/news/engineer...search-1.18787

Secondly, and this is just me, having some hope of a sudden breakthrough; it could maybe provide scientists a handle on how to come up with some solution to this. I hope the secrecy can end, and scientists will then work together to solve this. Maybe I am naive. There are currently no american, australian, european scientists allowed in Wuhan! Obviously the chinese do not trust the american, australian, european medical community with this.
---

But, much more important, than chasing shadows, is to focus on what this is:
COVID-19 is different from SARS in many aspects. That is where the chinese made a crucial mistake at the start! One is the asymptomic infection possibility (up to 24 days incubation period). Another is that this seems to be a retro-virus:
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3876197

Last edited by Reptil; 16th February 2020 at 07:31 PM..
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Old 16th February 2020
  #166
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Old 16th February 2020
  #167
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Apparently we all have different strategies to cope.


According to the New York Times there are now over 760 million in lockdowns of some sort.

That means more than half of the country. One in ten persons on the planet.
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Old 16th February 2020
  #168
Update: The virus may not be very dangerous for children. (finally some good news)
They do contract the disease.

Good channel btw for timely updates about the medical issues of this epidemic/pandemic
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Old 18th February 2020
  #169
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New data, for some reason published on github
https://github.com/cmrivers/ncov/blo...r/COVID-19.pdf

This data was also refered to by the WHO I think.
Bold / emphasis by me

Quote:
A total of 72,314 patient records—44,672
(61.8%) confirmed cases, 16,186 (22.4%) suspected
cases, 10,567 (14.6%) clinically diagnosed cases
(Hubei Province only), and 889 asymptomatic cases
(1.2%)—contributed data for the analysis.

Among confirmed cases, most were aged 30–79 years (86.6%),
diagnosed in Hubei (74.7%), and considered mild
(80.9%)
. A total of 1,023 deaths occurred among
confirmed cases for an overall case fatality rate of 2.3%.
...
[Critical cases were 4.7%]

Quote:
...
Mild included non-pneumonia and mild pneumonia cases. Severe was
characterized by dyspnea, respiratory frequency ≥
30/minute, blood oxygen saturation ≤93%, PaO2/FiO2
ratio <300, and/or lung infiltrates >50% within 24–48
hours. Critical cases were those that exhibited
respiratory failure, septic shock, and/or multiple organ
dysfunction/failure.

...
Case fatality rate was also very
high for cases categorized as critical at 49.0

EDIT: I am kind of sceptical regarding this data, but it's the data we have
Old 18th February 2020
  #170
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Old 18th February 2020
  #171
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to translate that to you, it means
roughly one in 8 are severe cases which require oxigen,
about 1 in 21 are critical cases of which half of them die.

Note also the authors call this "a very low case fatality rate" [sic].

And these bad figures only hold as long as there is hi-tech intensive care including extra corporal membrane oxigenation is available,
which will hardly be possible if the expected 50-60% of the population is affected.
Old 18th February 2020
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuldLangSine View Post
What almost everyone misses is that the mortality rate in China is higher than elsewhere because the hospitals are so overwhelmed that most sick people are not given treatment, so they die. People are assuming that sick people are in most cases getting treated. That is not true at all.
Nor would it be here, if it kicks off on that scale.....
Old 18th February 2020
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reptil View Post
What exactly are you arguining about?
Nonsensical conspiracy theories.

Quote:
Here's what I think is the truth: I don't know where it came from. And neither do you.
I'm not going to draw a conclusion, I find that premature.
I am concluding that Karfloff's theories (in as far as I can tell because he doesn't state exactly what he believes or provide any links to sources) are based on poor quality information sources.

Quote:
I'm not buying this. 67% that is not "low". That is only 1.7% removed from a match with the SARS it's supposedly very different from.
You are clearly not understanding what you read. Let me summarise:

James Lyons-Weiler claimed that the gene sequence that encodes the spike surface glycoprotein in 2019-nCoV (the protein that allows the virus to enter a human cell) is identical to a commercially available pShuttle-SN gene sequence. Note that he is not comparing the entire genome, just a small genetic sequence.

If indeed this small genetic sequence was used to genetically modify an existing virus, we would expect that sequence to be near identical in the engineered virus but it isn't. It is only 67% similar. Much LESS similar than the equivalent sequences in other Corona viruses. (See the database extract that you quoted).

Quote:
Sure, Lyons-Weiler has put in some caveats in his research.
He hasn't put caveats. He has retracted his conclusions entirely. Quoted from his site: (Sorry for the caps. This is how it is written on the site):

Quote:
Originally Posted by https://jameslyonsweiler.com/2020/01/30/on-the-origins-of-the-2019-ncov-virus-wuhan-china/
IPAK HAS CONDUCTED FURTHER, IN-DEPTH STUDIES OF THE GENOMIC AN PROTEIN SEQUENCES OF THE 2019-nCoV CORONAVIRUSES AND THEIR RELATIVES AND HAVE COMPELLING RESULTS OF A KEY SIGNATURE USEFUL FOR IDENTIFYING A PARTICULARLY PATHOGENIC CORONAVIRUSES LINEAGE. GIVEN THAT WE HAVE FOUND THIS SIGNATURE, A FUNCTIONAL MOTIF FINGERPRINT, PRESENT IN THE HK-3 CoV FROM 2005, WE BELIEVE THIS EXONERATES RECOMBINATION IN THE LAB AS A SOURCE OF THE VIRUS.
Quote:
But that's not proof of one or the other.
It proves that even he thinks his theories were bunk.

Currently, the general consensus in the scientific community is that the virus evolved naturally. There are many many sources confirming that view. Here is an article that isn't too technical: https://www.ft.com/content/a6392ee6-...0-43d18ec715f5

Quote:
Back to Healthfeedback.org:
Here's something that doesn't make sense:

No, it doesn't have to be near-identical, unless you only regard this PShuttle technique.
That is exactly what James Lyons-Weiler was looking at. A small genetic sequence that is part of the full genetic sequence of the virus. He was not looking at the entire genome. And yes that sequence would be near identical.

Quote:
What they should be looking for is characteristics in the virus that make it different from the (harmless) bat SARS-like virus. If there's a piece of code that is different from the bat SARS-like virus, then it would be prudent to look at a genomic irregularity closely, instead of dismissing it. It doesn't seem to be the PShuttle sequence. Maybe it's something else, something modern? At least that's my take on it.
Why think it is anything but natural? As I wrote above, the equivalent sequence is MORE similar in other Corona viruses, the SARS virus, the SARS-like bat CoV virus and the MERS virus. There is no reason to believe currently that the virus is human made. There is no evidence at all indicating that. On the contrary, all the evidence we have is that the mutations in the virus are completely consistent with natural evolution

Quote:
In fact a 30% change in genetic structure seems quite a lot (compared to the bat SARS-like virus it presumably originated from). a mutation which supposedly was random and made the virus "jump" species. Yes, it's possible, but the chance roughly 30% of it's genomic structure was changed in some random mutation, giving this virus many very different characteristics, that chance doesn't seem very high. The animal resevoir of the 2019-nCoV has not been found. Does it even exist? Maybe it does or did and the chinese destroyed it by accident? We just don't know.
First, the 2019-nCoV is 80% similar to the human SARS virus.

https://www.sciencealert.com/genetic...imilar-to-sars
https://thehill.com/changing-america...-is-80-percent

The 70% similarity in part on the genetic sequence to the commercial pShuttle-SN sequence is just plain nonsense. (It would be near identical). Note that James Lyons-Weiler is not an expert in this field at all and the experts have debunked his theories and, James Lyons-Weiler himself actually agrees on the analysis by others and posted a retraction! But ignorant fools all over the place will believe the original paper forever and it will be quoted (and misquoted) to eternity...

Quote:
Contrary to what seems to be suggested, these pathogens do not often "jump species". It is irregular. Therefore proving that this 2019-nCoV is a random mutation is needed, before drawing this conclusion.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2546865/
"Not often" means nothing when there are zillions of interactions every day between humans and other species globally. "Not often" is why the last outbreak was a decade ago. Considering all the interactions, once every decade is indeed "not often" but it is often enough.

However you cut it, "jumping species" is still the most likely scientific explanation at this point in time.

Quote:
I would argue that it's not unimportant to look at the possibillity of this being some engineered virus. And it's not some "harmful rumor" or "conspiracy theory" to point at the existence of the biowarfare industry.
So far there is zero evidence that it is man made even though we have the full genetic sequence of the virus available to any researcher that wants to look at it. And I completely disagree that such rumours and conspiracy bunk is harmless. Fear (and everything that results from that) is a dangerous thing. It causes panic and racism and detracts from real problems and solutions.

Quote:
Secondly, and this is just me, having some hope of a sudden breakthrough; it could maybe provide scientists a handle on how to come up with some solution to this.
Bunk science won't help anyone. It is nothing but a distraction. It literally takes scientists away from doing proper research because they need to address the nonsense first. It is bad thing plain and simple.

Quote:
I hope the secrecy can end, and scientists will then work together to solve this.
What secrecy? The Chinese Centre for Disease Control published the full genetic sequence as soon as they could! And there is plenty of international collaboration going on. There could of course be more but that is always the case.

Quote:
Maybe I am naive. There are currently no american, australian, european scientists allowed in Wuhan! Obviously the chinese do not trust the american, australian, european medical community with this.
Access to the region would of course be good but I don't really think it would help finding a cure (or vaccine). Scientists around the world are already working on that. No need to go to the region for that.

Quote:
But, much more important, than chasing shadows, is to focus on what this is:
COVID-19 is different from SARS in many aspects. That is where the chinese made a crucial mistake at the start! One is the asymptomic infection possibility (up to 24 days incubation period).
Why do you say the Chinese made a crucial mistake? No one knew what the virus was and, the WHO (and others) actually advised against travel bans. If anything, the Chinese government were more pro-active than the WHO (and others). (Maybe less so the regional authorities but that is hard to judge from outside China).

Quote:
Another is that this seems to be a retro-virus:
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3876197
Yes it is a retro-virus. Not sure why you post the above link though, it doesn't even mention that it is a retro-virus.

Alistair
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Old 18th February 2020
  #174
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thx for the much-needed demystification! - i fear it won't convince those who like to believe in conspiracy theory though...
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Old 18th February 2020
  #175
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I kissed a bat
I liked it ....
Old 18th February 2020
  #176
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Lots of normalcy bias in this thread. That's not unexpected though, and no insult intended by this statement.

I find it psychologically interesting how different people go about this and how there seem to be clusters of beliefs.

Like the belief that Ockhams Razor also applies to human crimes, human accidents and "black swan" single events seems to coincide with other beliefs about the virus and the situation, for instance an underestimate about the potential risks.

It's interesting to me cause these beliefs seem to be both unrelated and unfounded at first glance and based on ideologies and hopes rather than what is known.

For instance, to insist that the virus has to originate in natural (convergent) evolution seems somewhat futile to me, similar to the mostly futile try to prove that something doesn't exist.
All you can do is show that a path of natural evolution is possible, or, in case you find unlikely sequences of unlikely lengths, that it is less likely. Neither finding is a full proof for anything, however, although a really unlikely sequence of long length is a much stronger hint towards an artificial origin than a very likely sequence could ever be for a natural origin.
That's the nature of such things, whether we like that or not.

To give a picture to illustrate this: I don't belive in alien UFOs at all, but a crashed alien UFO would be a much stronger proof for aliens than the absence of alien artifacts is for their non-existence. This absence is not a proof for anything.

To me, it's this and wording and framing like "conspiracy theorie", "debunking" etc, that indicate that underlying are ideological belief clusters rather than cold rational thinking.
That is not to say that the conclusions, in the end, are wrong. Even a fallacy can result in the right conclusion.

In this thread, and in this time, however, I hope that we rather share insights and information than battle preexisting fixed belief systems. They will not gain us anything here.

And I think the most important information is the severity of the situation, and that it will and already does affect all of us.
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Old 18th February 2020
  #177
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be assured that if there would have been just the faintest suspicion that this flew came out of a lab, the political response from ALL countries and especially those with expertise in biological (and to some extent also chemical) warfare would have been VASTLY different!

besides the rather benign work i do in several fields of pro audio, i work as an inspector for the osce as i happen to know a bit about more martial endeavours of states (and therefore get to witness many high-level meetings/summits in the old world for ca. 20 years now).

i just go back from munich and although sars-cov-2 was a topic to some degree, western intelligence would have put it much higher on the agenda IF there would have been any indication about an accident, bio-terrorism or attemps to produce a new weapon of mass destruction!

we as individuals may not kow much about china but western society and its intelligence ain't completely blind about activities in other areas of the world.
Old 19th February 2020
  #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
the political response from ALL countries and especially those with expertise in biological (and to some extent also chemical) warfare would have been VASTLY different!
different to what? and how? examples?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i just go back from munich and although sars-cov-2 was a topic to some degree, western intelligence would have put it much higher on the agenda if there would have been any indication about an accident, bio-terrorism or attemps to produce a new weapon of mass destruction!
From the outside, I've never seen a topic that was put up on the agenda there, high or low, that was based on insights of the intellgence services -
If that was the case the world would be a totally different place altogether
What's on the agenda is: agendas. Not insights.

On the contrary - often these agendas contradict known facts.
Especially in the field of chemical warefare, terrorism, and such.

May I ask what your job is in this context?
Old 19th February 2020
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by memristor View Post
different to what? and how? examples?
remember iraq's alleged possession of weapons of mass destructions? - feed selected media with appetizers, let the spin doctors tell the saga, let high level security officials 'confirm' things but blur the image, smoke and mirrors, put up some diplomatic pressure on friend and foe to form a coalition, put the topic on the map of the un etc. - none of that happened!

Quote:
From the outside, I've never seen a topic that was put up on the agenda there, high or low, that was based on insights of the intellgence services
of course you didn't! it's the nature of your status (being an outsider)...

i don't mean this to be arrogant but most of what's happening in davos, munich or then at g7/(g8/)g20 etc. is not intended to be discussed in public - neither the sources of information nor the course of discussions and in some cases not even the outcome get communicated: official 'verifications' (is that the term for 'verlautbarungen?') get spread in very specific ways, orchestrated, amplified, after lengthy evaluations and negotiations between all involved parties - only carefully chosen statements make it out into the world.

Quote:
What's on the agenda is: agendas. Not insights.
i didn't mean 'agenda' as a political agenda but simply as a schedule/to put something on the radar/into wider focus.

Quote:
May I ask what your job is in this context?
of course not! (well... - in munich, i was an observer for the osce)
Old 19th February 2020
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
- none of that happened!
No sh1t Sherlock - because it was a completely different situation that has nothing in common at all.
Not even if you'd believe the same actor was the driving force in both cases, which I find a peculiar thought.

What I find also peculiar is that you seem to believe that any intelligence community, or you for that matter,
would have more in depth and in advance knowledge than the scientific community at large in this case and at this time.
The phylogenetic origin of SARS COV 2 and its properties are still ongoing research topics.

Lastly, my point had been that it can't be known for sure either way. I have the impression this and it's implications didn't sink in.

EDIT but it's quite interesting to see along which lines someone who serves as an observer for the OSCE is thinking.
Interesting, but also frightening in a way tbh.

EDIT2 a strong indication or proof for natural origin would be if it could be detected in wildlife samples sampled prior to the outbreak

EDIT3 what the Irak story tells us though is what lengths powers go to falsify evidence
also, remember the German role in this, the evidence chain?

Last edited by memristor; 19th February 2020 at 08:09 AM..
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