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Genelec 8351 best way to connect Audio Interfaces
Old 8th May 2018
  #1
Gear Nut
 

Genelec 8351 best way to connect

Hi all,

I’m considering purchasing the Genelec 8351’s.

I’m currently coming out my dangerous source analog XLR to my speakers. I use an Apollo twin for inputs.

I’m slightly confused which method would be best if I bring the genelecs into the equation. The dangerous sounds better XLR out than the Apollo.

The genelecs have their own DAC apparently but I don’t really understand if going from the Apollo digitally, Dangerous analog or Dangerous ‘digital through’ which I don’t quite understand the purpose for.

Thanks
Old 8th May 2018
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangefridge View Post
Hi all,

I’m considering purchasing the Genelec 8351’s.

I’m currently coming out my dangerous source analog XLR to my speakers. I use an Apollo twin for inputs.

I’m slightly confused which method would be best if I bring the genelecs into the equation. The dangerous sounds better XLR out than the Apollo.

The genelecs have their own DAC apparently but I don’t really understand if going from the Apollo digitally, Dangerous analog or Dangerous ‘digital through’ which I don’t quite understand the purpose for.

Thanks
Go directly digital out of any box you have. AES Out of Apollo (if you have one with AES) or out of Dangerous (if it has AES out). Avoid any additional DA-AD conversion and you'll get the purest possible sound out of your Genelecs.
Old 8th May 2018
  #3
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Go directly digital out of any box you have. AES Out of Apollo (if you have one with AES) or out of Dangerous (if it has AES out). Avoid any additional DA-AD conversion and you'll get the purest possible sound out of your Genelecs.
Thanks Jantex.

The source has AES/Spdif through. I like using it as my monitor controller and headphone amp for my HD800's. I'm slightly confused by it's XLR connection.

I'm guessing the Source wont give me what I need (direct AES to the genelecs). That's a bit of a bummer. It sounds amazing though so I'm wondering if the DAC and XLR out of the dangerous is better than the Genelec DAC.

What interface do you use?

Thanks
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Genelec 8351 best way to connect-screen-shot-2018-05-08-10.17.36.jpg  
Old 8th May 2018
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangefridge View Post
Thanks Jantex.

The source has AES/Spdif through. I like using it as my monitor controller and headphone amp for my HD800's. I'm slightly confused by it's XLR connection.

I'm guessing the Source wont give me what I need (direct AES to the genelecs). That's a bit of a bummer. It sounds amazing though so I'm wondering if the DAC and XLR out of the dangerous is better than the Genelec DAC.

What interface do you use?

Thanks
Even if you enter Genelecs with analog signal converted by your Dangerous DAC, it will again be converted via Genelec AD for the DSP purposes. So going digital into Genelecs is the only thing that makes sense, to avoid additional DA and AD stage.

Genelecs AD/DA converters are superb, one cannot test them, but you can be rest assured that Genelecs engineers didn't compromise it in any way. It is transparent as hell, and if you feed your Genelecs with a healthy signal, you will get a really pure sound.

I am using Apollo 8P and RME ADI-2 Pro. Both have great conversion, latter actually has stellar conversion, but it is still beter going into Genelecs digitally via AES (I did actually try it).
Old 8th May 2018
  #5
Gear Nut
 

Thanks!
Old 4 days ago
  #6
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Even if you enter Genelecs with analog signal converted by your Dangerous DAC, it will again be converted via Genelec AD for the DSP purposes. So going digital into Genelecs is the only thing that makes sense, to avoid additional DA and AD stage.

Genelecs AD/DA converters are superb, one cannot test them, but you can be rest assured that Genelecs engineers didn't compromise it in any way. It is transparent as hell, and if you feed your Genelecs with a healthy signal, you will get a really pure sound.

I am using Apollo 8P and RME ADI-2 Pro. Both have great conversion, latter actually has stellar conversion, but it is still beter going into Genelecs digitally via AES (I did actually try it).

Hey Jantex,

I did a google search about a question to my actual setup and your post popped up.

May I ask you some questions? You seem to run a very similar setup that I have / have in mind.

At the moment I use an Apollo 16 mk2 as my only interface/converter in the studio.

I have my Genelec 8351 connected via AES Out of the Apollo 16 and I am using the Genelec Volume knob for volume control of the Genelecs.
According the Genelec the cleanest way to change the volume. (Griffin Knob would also be ok)

If I only use the Genelecs I can bypass the monitor output gain in the Apollo console and get a clean digital signal out of the Apollo 16.

But as soon as I want to hook up also my mixcubes or ns 10´s the whole thing becomes somehow not so cool.

I have to engage the monitoring volume control in the Apollo again if i want to control the volume of the second pair of monitors (NS 10 or cubes) with the Apollo´s monitor volume knob.

But at the same time I can only mirror the digital out (AES) in the console of the Apollo to the main monitor signal. I found no other solution to get both pairs of speakers (one digital, one analog) out of this Apollo 16 without engaging the Apollo internal monitor volume.
If one runs only analog speakers this can be ok, but I hear some change in sound by engaging the Apollo monitor volume in the digital AES signal.

Right know I use my NS 10´s as an Alt 1 Monitor Out hooked up to line out 1 and 2. This gives me the opportunity to set the internal Apollo monitor volume control at 0 db and leave it there and then I use the trim of the alt 1 monitor channel to control the volume of the ns 10´s. But the volume knob at the Apollo stays unusable this way, I have to do it with the mouse in the console app…

This is the best compromise I found.

I found no way to mirror the main monitoring signal to the aes out of the Apollo but leave the volume of the digital signal untouched if I want to use the monitoring knob of the Apollo for another pair of speakers.

And just engaging the monitoring section of the Apollo changes the sound of the digital AES out signal…

I want the clean AES signal for the Genelecs, it sounds that better even my wife hears the difference….

It is kind of annoying that i can not simply mirror the monitoring signal to the AES out but leave it untouched from the monitoring section.

Few ideas came to mind till now:

1. bypass the monitoring section of the Apollo and use the power amp or extra monitor controller for the second pair of "analog monitors" (Ns10, Cubes)

2. Use a virtual channel in the console as main out and try to route it somehow to get it working like I want. But I am not sure if the virtual channel alone will change the digital signal again…


3. Say Good Bye to the Apollo cause it seems not to do what I want go an RME or similar route.



I see you have the ADI 2 Pro integrated in your setup - but I assume you also can not make use of the Apollo´s Monitor section?

Thanks and greetings
Mat
Old 4 days ago
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85mat View Post
Hey Jantex,

I did a google search about a question to my actual setup and your post popped up.

May I ask you some questions? You seem to run a very similar setup that I have / have in mind.

At the moment I use an Apollo 16 mk2 as my only interface/converter in the studio.

I have my Genelec 8351 connected via AES Out of the Apollo 16 and I am using the Genelec Volume knob for volume control of the Genelecs.
According the Genelec the cleanest way to change the volume. (Griffin Knob would also be ok)

If I only use the Genelecs I can bypass the monitor output gain in the Apollo console and get a clean digital signal out of the Apollo 16.

But as soon as I want to hook up also my mixcubes or ns 10´s the whole thing becomes somehow not so cool.

I have to engage the monitoring volume control in the Apollo again if i want to control the volume of the second pair of monitors (NS 10 or cubes) with the Apollo´s monitor volume knob.

But at the same time I can only mirror the digital out (AES) in the console of the Apollo to the main monitor signal. I found no other solution to get both pairs of speakers (one digital, one analog) out of this Apollo 16 without engaging the Apollo internal monitor volume.
If one runs only analog speakers this can be ok, but I hear some change in sound by engaging the Apollo monitor volume in the digital AES signal.

Right know I use my NS 10´s as an Alt 1 Monitor Out hooked up to line out 1 and 2. This gives me the opportunity to set the internal Apollo monitor volume control at 0 db and leave it there and then I use the trim of the alt 1 monitor channel to control the volume of the ns 10´s. But the volume knob at the Apollo stays unusable this way, I have to do it with the mouse in the console app…

This is the best compromise I found.

I found no way to mirror the main monitoring signal to the aes out of the Apollo but leave the volume of the digital signal untouched if I want to use the monitoring knob of the Apollo for another pair of speakers.

And just engaging the monitoring section of the Apollo changes the sound of the digital AES out signal…

I want the clean AES signal for the Genelecs, it sounds that better even my wife hears the difference….

It is kind of annoying that i can not simply mirror the monitoring signal to the AES out but leave it untouched from the monitoring section.

Few ideas came to mind till now:

1. bypass the monitoring section of the Apollo and use the power amp or extra monitor controller for the second pair of "analog monitors" (Ns10, Cubes)

2. Use a virtual channel in the console as main out and try to route it somehow to get it working like I want. But I am not sure if the virtual channel alone will change the digital signal again…


3. Say Good Bye to the Apollo cause it seems not to do what I want go an RME or similar route.



I see you have the ADI 2 Pro integrated in your setup - but I assume you also can not make use of the Apollo´s Monitor section?

Thanks and greetings
Mat
Hi Mat,

I absolutely understand your frustration with secondary monitor pair when using Genelec's GLM control instead of Apollos (which I also noticed changes something the passing AES signal). To tell you the truth, I am using exactly the same method for alternative pair - that is utilizing alternative trim with the mouse. I am sligtly less offended by this, since I rarely (if ever) in the last two years used alternative monitors (NS10s). Simply don't need them anymore to be honest, am 100% happy with Genelecs.

I am using ADI-2 Pro as a reclocking device and external clock as it makes Apollo sound much much better. RME upsamples upcoming SPDIF to 192kHz and distributes this via AES to Genelecs. I found I get much improved focused with greatly improved clarity in the mids and tighter bass compared to Apollo. I also use it as a headpohone DAC and preamp, since these days also use headphones regularly...they are my modern day NS10s, since people consume music more often on headphones than on speakers.

So yes, RME is much better solution for the control of multiple monitor pairs, but your current problem only remains valid if you are still much dependable on alternative speakers.
Old 4 days ago
  #8
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Hi Mat,

I absolutely understand your frustration with secondary monitor pair when using Genelec's GLM control instead of Apollos (which I also noticed changes something the passing AES signal). To tell you the truth, I am using exactly the same method for alternative pair - that is utilizing alternative trim with the mouse. I am sligtly less offended by this, since I rarely (if ever) in the last two years used alternative monitors (NS10s). Simply don't need them anymore to be honest, am 100% happy with Genelecs.

I am using ADI-2 Pro as a reclocking device and external clock as it makes Apollo sound much much better. RME upsamples upcoming SPDIF to 192kHz and distributes this via AES to Genelecs. I found I get much improved focused with greatly improved clarity in the mids and tighter bass compared to Apollo. I also use it as a headpohone DAC and preamp, since these days also use headphones regularly...they are my modern day NS10s, since people consume music more often on headphones than on speakers.

So yes, RME is much better solution for the control of multiple monitor pairs, but your current problem only remains valid if you are still much dependable on alternative speakers.
Hey Jantex,

Thanks for your feedback.

Yes, somehow I assumed this result. I played already with various possible scenarios in my head... and as you say, as long as there is only one pair of speakers involved all is good.

The thing is I also rarely use the ns10 anymore, but these little avantone cubes, i really love switching to them.
Agree with the headphone argument and todays people listening behavior.
And of course you are right with the clocking. Nearly every interface in the range of the apollos will improve with a good clock. Also less jitter in digital signals.

I had an 8p before the 16. I bought the 16 for a good price and guess would be able to sell it for much the same again.
Initially I thought about adding some summing box to my setup, and bought the apollo 16 for that. But somehow this never happened, and the more time goes down the road, the more I feel comfortable with only hardware 2 bus eq and compressor. No need for summing at the moment.

Maybe i kick out the apollo. If I really run out of dsp i can add a satellite or card.
Have you ever compared the apollo to stuff from rme? I remember working with rme converters few years ago. Sounded very clinical compared to ua. But these were the old adi 8 and the cards. No ufx 2 or adi 2 pro. Maybe there has been some change in the meantime.

Did your get your hands on stuff from both? UA and RME? Is the difference drastic or can one be happy with either one?

Would be interested in your opinion.

Thanks
Greetings
Mat
Old 3 days ago
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85mat View Post
Hey Jantex,

Thanks for your feedback.

Yes, somehow I assumed this result. I played already with various possible scenarios in my head... and as you say, as long as there is only one pair of speakers involved all is good.

The thing is I also rarely use the ns10 anymore, but these little avantone cubes, i really love switching to them.
Agree with the headphone argument and todays people listening behavior.
And of course you are right with the clocking. Nearly every interface in the range of the apollos will improve with a good clock. Also less jitter in digital signals.

I had an 8p before the 16. I bought the 16 for a good price and guess would be able to sell it for much the same again.
Initially I thought about adding some summing box to my setup, and bought the apollo 16 for that. But somehow this never happened, and the more time goes down the road, the more I feel comfortable with only hardware 2 bus eq and compressor. No need for summing at the moment.

Maybe i kick out the apollo. If I really run out of dsp i can add a satellite or card.
Have you ever compared the apollo to stuff from rme? I remember working with rme converters few years ago. Sounded very clinical compared to ua. But these were the old adi 8 and the cards. No ufx 2 or adi 2 pro. Maybe there has been some change in the meantime.

Did your get your hands on stuff from both? UA and RME? Is the difference drastic or can one be happy with either one?

Would be interested in your opinion.

Thanks
Greetings
Mat
Hi Mat, yes I have been using both brands quite often. The fact is they do sound different. Apollo is slightly softer and cloudier, while RME is more punchy and focused. Apollo has more emphasized but slightly slower lows, RME has more controlled and tighter lows. Here I am talking especially about Apollo 8p and RME ADI-2 Pro for example. And I am not even talking about conversion here, only about AES output (in case of Apollo I used Hosa SPDIF to AES converter before RME ADI-2 Pro).

I haven't heard new Apollo Xs which apparently should be significantly improved over blackface versions, but I am more than happy with my current configuration and see no need for a change.

I think one could be more than happy with any of the two brand. Both are rock solid performers and in terms of drivers and software always work flawlessly
Old 2 days ago
  #10
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Hi Mat, yes I have been using both brands quite often. The fact is they do sound different. Apollo is slightly softer and cloudier, while RME is more punchy and focused. Apollo has more emphasized but slightly slower lows, RME has more controlled and tighter lows. Here I am talking especially about Apollo 8p and RME ADI-2 Pro for example. And I am not even talking about conversion here, only about AES output (in case of Apollo I used Hosa SPDIF to AES converter before RME ADI-2 Pro).

I haven't heard new Apollo Xs which apparently should be significantly improved over blackface versions, but I am more than happy with my current configuration and see no need for a change.

I think one could be more than happy with any of the two brand. Both are rock solid performers and in terms of drivers and software always work flawlessly
Thanks for those insights.

Perhaps i kick the Apollo out of the studio.
Exchange for Adi 2 pro and a babyface pro. should do the trick. Do not need that much i/o at the moment. Can also later add a multichannel converter of my choice if needed.


Found a better solution for the meantime before i decide if i switch to RME or not. Want to hear the units myself first.

Can be interesting for you if you ever want to hook up again a second pair of speakers:


1. Set Digital Mirror to off and Monitor Gain to ON


2. Connect analog speakers to the dedicated speaker outputs


3. Connect Genelecs to AES (Apollo 16) or SPDIF (Apollo 8p with Converter or Adi in your case)

4. Open Cue Outputs

5. Set Cue Output 1 to MIX and choose in the Mirror to Output dropdown menu AES /SPDIF
(Make sure digital channel AES / SPDIF is not used elsewhere in console cause it would not be available in the dropdown menu then)

6. Digital Signal is passing out of the Apollo without any attenuation (not passing monitoring circuit)



Practical Use:


Griffin Powermate controls the Genelecs + digital signal

Volume Knob of the Apollo Controls Analog Speaker Volume

Switching between Monitors =


Analog (cubes, ns10)
Mute Genelec with Powermate + Unmute Analog Speaker with Volume Knob Apollo


Digital (Genelec GLM)
Mute Analog Speakers with Volume Knob Apollo - Unmute Genelec with Powermate.

One can also just click on the mute buttons in console and glm - but i like to push knobs.

Greetings
Old 1 day ago
  #11
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Hi Mat, yes I have been using both brands quite often. The fact is they do sound different. Apollo is slightly softer and cloudier, while RME is more punchy and focused. Apollo has more emphasized but slightly slower lows, RME has more controlled and tighter lows. Here I am talking especially about Apollo 8p and RME ADI-2 Pro for example. And I am not even talking about conversion here, only about AES output (in case of Apollo I used Hosa SPDIF to AES converter before RME ADI-2 Pro).

I haven't heard new Apollo Xs which apparently should be significantly improved over blackface versions, but I am more than happy with my current configuration and see no need for a change.

I think one could be more than happy with any of the two brand. Both are rock solid performers and in terms of drivers and software always work flawlessly

Hey again,

I read a little about the Adi 2 Pro. But at seems that there are a lot of limitations under the hood.
If I read the manual it looks like not all of the i/o digital and analog can be used at the same time. It is more that I can use either that or that but not both at the same time.

So my question would be - how is this in practice?

I understand that you use the Adi 2 Pro instead of the Hosa device and that the digital signal is improved while passing through the Adi 2 Pro because of upsampling and good clocking = less Jitter.

But how do you monitor an analog master chain in this configuration?


There is only one pair of analog line in. so you can send something out of the adi, use the DA, into the master chain, back into the adi, use its AD.


But then? You already had to send the mix to the Adi to pass it through the analog chain.

How do you get back to your DAW and then back to your monitoring (AES Genelec)

It seems that I would not be able to hear my final Mixbus in Pro Tools?

I hope that I am thinking wrong somewhere...

Thanks
Old 4 hours ago
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85mat View Post
Hey again,

I read a little about the Adi 2 Pro. But at seems that there are a lot of limitations under the hood.
If I read the manual it looks like not all of the i/o digital and analog can be used at the same time. It is more that I can use either that or that but not both at the same time.

So my question would be - how is this in practice?

I understand that you use the Adi 2 Pro instead of the Hosa device and that the digital signal is improved while passing through the Adi 2 Pro because of upsampling and good clocking = less Jitter.

But how do you monitor an analog master chain in this configuration?


There is only one pair of analog line in. so you can send something out of the adi, use the DA, into the master chain, back into the adi, use its AD.


But then? You already had to send the mix to the Adi to pass it through the analog chain.

How do you get back to your DAW and then back to your monitoring (AES Genelec)

It seems that I would not be able to hear my final Mixbus in Pro Tools?

I hope that I am thinking wrong somewhere...

Thanks
Yes, you are correct and are assuming the limitation correctly. I unfortunately cannot monitor analog master chain via ADI-2 converters this way. So I am basically only using it as a reclocking/upsampling device and as a superb headphone preamp and DA for headphones. I am actually not utilising its AD at all, since I cannot use it for anal chain this way.

It can only be used for analog chain when I am using it for mastering and am using it as an audio interdace. This way I can configue inputs and outputs for analog chain and seperate AES output for monitoring. But to be honest, I do this only rarely. I am actually happy with AD-DA converters of Apollo for my HW inserts therefore don't like to complicate my workflow this way.
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