The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Grimm Audio TPR cable. Dual-Channel Preamps
Old 7th October 2017
  #31
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimotei View Post
Sorry, I know its and old thread but.. I guess you only use the TPR between the converter and the Amphion amp, and not as speaker cable from the amp to the speakers? Just curious..
I use the TPR as an AES digital cable to feed my DAC as TPR is 110 ohms. I also use it from the DAC to Amp 100 in a traditional analog use.

For speaker cables from Amp100 to One15, I use the Amphion speaker cables: Speaker cable | Amphion
Old 16th February 2018
  #32
Here for the gear
 
cymruroots's Avatar
 

Fwiw: I use Grimm TPR in a 1/4 in phone plug to XLR balanced config from my Prism dac to power amp. I have had all sorts of audiophile priced cables over the past few decades and this one is just wonderful. Clean, clear, open, detailed without being tipped or edgy with great extension on the low end and very quiet revealing spatial cues well.
Old 6th May 2018
  #33
Gear Addict
 

I had been using the safe bet, Mogami Gold. I decided to try the Grimm TPR cables that have been praised here and elsewhere. I ordered several sets of cables so that I could replace all of them at once in my very small setup. My reasoning was that I wanted to hear the maximum difference, if any existed. I also did not want to mix cable "signatures" (if that exists) which would muddy the results of the test.

My setup has three sets of cables before hitting the amplifier.
- D/A to preamp.
- Preamp to Jensen XLR isolation transformer.
- Isolation transformer to Amp500.

I have no charts, no graphs, no oscilloscope pictures. The difference is not subtle, not something you have to switch back and forth to be sure it is there.

Try the test for yourself. Proaudiola made up my custom order for a reasonable price. I have no connection with them, and this was my first order with them.

Audio Cables & Studio Solutions | DB25, XLR, 1/4", Snakes, Patchbays, Equipment | Pro Audio LA

In short, the Grimm TPR cables are now the only ones I will use. This is not a matter of faith, not a confirmation bias. A friend came over for movie night and I made no mention of the cable change. We were two minutes into the movie and he said "The sound quality is really something." He had never commented on the sound quality before. It was a movie we had both seen before, about a year ago. ("Lucy")

Just my opinion.

Last edited by DigitalGrease; 6th May 2018 at 06:38 AM.. Reason: Fixed link:
Old 6th May 2018
  #34
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalGrease View Post
In short, the Grimm TPR cables are now the only ones I will use. This is not a matter of faith, not a confirmation bias. A friend came over for movie night and I made no mention of the cable change. We were two minutes into the movie and he said "The sound quality is really something." He had never commented on the sound quality before. It was a movie we had both seen before, about a year ago. ("Lucy")

Just my opinion.
That's the thing with high-quality cables, you need to try them out yourself - in your own setup - before really knowing if they make a difference or not.

Short story, a good friend has a decent HiFi-system - Dali bookshelf speakers and a Denon recevicer (approx $2000 in total).

I set him up with a Supra LoRad power strip with built-in passive power filtering, two Supra LoRad SPC shielded power cables (one for the power strip and one for the receiver) and a pair of Supra XL Annorum speaker cables. About $600 in total.

First I changed the power strip and the power cables which made a pretty audible difference for the better. I had already converted my friend into a "cable guy" showing the difference in sound-quality in my studio and in my HiFi system. But I didn't want to influence his opinion so I didn't say anything. We just listened to some tracks that we had chosen before starting to exchange the cables.

"There's already a difference. I can't believe that there really is an audible difference by just changing the power cables." was his first reaction. And I agreed.

Then we changed to speaker cables - from decent generic "it doesn't make a difference anyway" speaker cables to the Supras.

The difference in sound quality was not subtle. My friend was jumping in joy.

But now the funny part.

Fastforward a couple of weeks and a friend of him is visiting. This guy is a HiFi guy owning expensive B&W speakers and pretty decent amps (approx $15 000 in total).

So he's sitting and listening to my friend's speakers - like he's done many times before - without knowing about the upgrade, looking kind of perplexed, and suddenly asks:

"Have you changed the speakers?"

"No, I have changed the cables."

"Nooo...really?"


The difference in sound-quality was obviously so noticeable that he had instantly heard it.


IMHO, there's nothing magic with cables, but they can really make a difference depending on what you buy and how they interact with the rest of you gear. You have to see the cables as part of a system setup where everything affects everything (to some degree), because in Nature nothing is perfectly linear. Then it's more easy to accept that there really can be a pretty audible difference in sound-quality.

DigitalGrease, welcome to the tribe! :-)


Cheers
Fred
Old 6th May 2018
  #35
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenzy View Post
That's the thing with high-quality cables, you need to try them out yourself - in your own setup - before really knowing if they make a difference or not.

Short story, a good friend has a decent HiFi-system - Dali bookshelf speakers and a Denon recevicer (approx $2000 in total).

I set him up with a Supra LoRad power strip with built-in passive power filtering, two Supra LoRad SPC shielded power cables (one for the power strip and one for the receiver) and a pair of Supra XL Annorum speaker cables. About $600 in total.

First I changed the power strip and the power cables which made a pretty audible difference for the better. I had already converted my friend into a "cable guy" showing the difference in sound-quality in my studio and in my HiFi system. But I didn't want to influence his opinion so I didn't say anything. We just listened to some tracks that we had chosen before starting to exchange the cables.

"There's already a difference. I can't believe that there really is an audible difference by just changing the power cables." was his first reaction. And I agreed.

Then we changed to speaker cables - from decent generic "it doesn't make a difference anyway" speaker cables to the Supras.

The difference in sound quality was not subtle. My friend was jumping in joy.

But now the funny part.

Fastforward a couple of weeks and a friend of him is visiting. This guy is a HiFi guy owning expensive B&W speakers and pretty decent amps (approx $15 000 in total).

So he's sitting and listening to my friend's speakers - like he's done many times before - without knowing about the upgrade, looking kind of perplexed, and suddenly asks:

"Have you changed the speakers?"

"No, I have changed the cables."

"Nooo...really?"


The difference in sound-quality was obviously so noticeable that he had instantly heard it.


IMHO, there's nothing magic with cables, but they can really make a difference depending on what you buy and how they interact with the rest of you gear. You have to see the cables as part of a system setup where everything affects everything (to some degree), because in Nature nothing is perfectly linear. Then it's more easy to accept that there really can be a pretty audible difference in sound-quality.

DigitalGrease, welcome to the tribe! :-)


Cheers
Fred
Thanks for welcoming me to the Grimm tribe. I was halfway there with the CC2 already. Do we have a secret hand shake or something?
Old 6th May 2018
  #36
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalGrease View Post
Thanks for welcoming me to the Grimm tribe. I was halfway there with the CC2 already. Do we have a secret hand shake or something?
I was meaning the tribe of cable believers.

But I might just order a Grimm CC2. Debating with myself. ;-)


Cheers
Fred
Old 6th May 2018
  #37
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenzy View Post
I was meaning the tribe of cable believers.

But I might just order a Grimm CC2. Debating with myself. ;-)


Cheers
Fred
I understand now. The reason I did not go there was because, in my experience, it is not a matter of belief, simply a matter of blind testing on systems of sufficient resolution. Back in the Jurassic period when I ran with a Golden Ears crowd, it was all about tuning a system to work at its best for your taste. As you mentioned above, there is a complex synergy of different equipment, electrical power quality, speakers, room and ears. The gold standard for one person was a dog's breakfast for another.

Fast forward to today, now that I am playing in this Pro Audio sand box, all of those factors still apply, but I am working toward an idealized "Studio Standard" of sorts. There is still room for personal variation, however, if you stray too far off the path, lots of people will let you know.

That is why I stuck with the bog standard safe bet of Mogami, and to be fair, it has enough resolution to get the job done. It does not fail in any major way, and you can still make critical decisions on equipment and mixes. The Grimm cables just let you see more clearly.

If you can borrow a Grimm CC2 or CC1, I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised, both in D/A and A/D. The Cranesong Hedd Quantum should play in the same sub-picosecond ball park.
Old 6th May 2018
  #38
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
What wire number specifically is used in the 'Mogami Gold' that you are using? Is it 2549 or Quad?
Old 6th May 2018
  #39
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoom25 View Post
What wire number specifically is used in the 'Mogami Gold' that you are using? Is it 2549 or Quad?
I was using 2534 Neglex quad. My understanding is that some prefer the 2549.
Old 6th May 2018
  #40
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
I don't have a problem with 2549 or the TPR for analog. I just know the 3173 sticks out in long listening. Initially sounding good and giving an appearance of extended frequency response, but after awhile it gets a bit fatiguing. That's a SCIN issue with the 3173 though and other AES cables that have their drain wire running under the shield. With TPR as a reference, I'm interested in two other cables: TPM and Vovox unshielded. Not necessarily to find the best sounding cable, but rather the most linear one with the highest signal integrity.

The TPM improves upon the shielding and other features of the TPR. On the other hand the Voxox is unshielded. Some people find the Vovox sounds better or that the shielding does more harm than good, especially if the shielding is not needed. Some may argue that the coloration and RF pickup is what people are liking on the unshielded.

If somebody had access to a shielded room or could run the cables in a shielded conduit from connection to connection, that would be interesting to compare how these cables sound when used in the real world vs. in isolation.
Old 1 week ago
  #41
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

So I got in on the TPR thing for a little tester and bought 10 metres to replace the VanDamme between my mixer and amp and for a couple of mic leads. I just finished soldering them up and first impressions of the amp interconnects are interesting but not ideal.

It seems on the positive, there is some sort of extra 3D thing blowing space and definition in between the sounds. This I love. But there is also the fact the ess area seems suddenly rather aggressive indeed, and the bass end feels contained/smaller. In fact, it feels like my one15's just turned the clock back to being completely new. This sounds like when they came, bitey up top and a bit stuck/smaller in the bottom.

So, swiftly on to the ridiculous topic area.......does this stuff break in? I mean, I know the hifi'ers reckon yes, but.......to me speakers most definitely do, but cables??

In any case I bloody hope so, as if I get to keep the 3D thingemibob that seems to be happening, but the top gets softer again and the bottom back to size then I'll be very happy......otherwise I might have to pull these out again based on the sharp esses if nothing else. A cable giving me sharp esses?? I mean, fookin hell, I can't believe I am typing this....

Someone say something soothing, please.
Old 1 week ago
  #42
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
So I got in on the TPR thing for a little tester and bought 10 metres to replace the VanDamme between my mixer and amp and for a couple of mic leads. I just finished soldering them up and first impressions of the amp interconnects are interesting but not ideal.

It seems on the positive, there is some sort of extra 3D thing blowing space and definition in between the sounds. This I love. But there is also the fact the ess area seems suddenly rather aggressive indeed, and the bass end feels contained/smaller. In fact, it feels like my one15's just turned the clock back to being completely new. This sounds like when they came, bitey up top and a bit stuck/smaller in the bottom.

So, swiftly on to the ridiculous topic area.......does this stuff break in? I mean, I know the hifi'ers reckon yes, but.......to me speakers most definitely do, but cables??

In any case I bloody hope so, as if I get to keep the 3D thingemibob that seems to be happening, but the top gets softer again and the bottom back to size then I'll be very happy......otherwise I might have to pull these out again based on the sharp esses if nothing else. A cable giving me sharp esses?? I mean, fookin hell, I can't believe I am typing this....

Someone say something soothing, please.

First, I would try going directly from your interface to the amp if you have a variable output available. Just as a sanity check to see what the mixer is doing to things. I found the TPR to be very revealing.

I had an additional revelation when one channel of my AMP500 died. On a whim I had purchased a NuForce STA200 (recommended by The Absolute Sound) for $499 US. I had listened to it before with the Mogami Neglex and while I was impressed, I was not blown away. Swapping in the NuForce with the TPR was, well, a revelation.

I have been comparing A/D converters recently and I still have the comparison files. They were recorded with TPR connecting everything, but listening through the NuForce, suddenly it was much easier to hear the differences between the A/D converters. The best sounded better, the worst sounded worse.

By the way, Audio Advisor has them in stock now at $499 (originally $1299).
NuForce STA 200 Power Amplifier-Audio Advisor

These are a bargain. They are DC coupled inputs, so they are sensitive to ground loop or DC offset issues.

As far as break-in is concerned, I have not been listening for it, but my sense is that there is some. I do not know if it will be enough to address your issues, which is why I suggest bypassing everything and going direct to see what you see.

PS
No sibilance issues, no harsh esses at my end.

Last edited by DigitalGrease; 1 week ago at 06:31 PM.. Reason: Added thoughts
Old 1 week ago
  #43
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
Hi Karloff, I don't think the sound of the TPR changed for me. Although, there may have been some initial mental break-in. I did notice something similar when I first got TPR. The extra space and 3Dness and the flavour of the transients was a bit different (perhaps more revealing?) and took some time getting adjusted to. I don't notice anything harsh or hard over here with the TPR and One15 and Amp100. That may have been with the Mogami 3173 perhaps.

What is your current chain, gear and cable wise? I find having Mogami 2549 as another reference to be useful in gauging. Both TPR and 2549 sound neutral tonality wise. Nothing really sticks out or bothers me or makes me feel uneasy. Put it in and forget kind of thing.
Old 1 week ago
  #44
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Thanks for your thoughts!

At the moment I am running from SPL Madison through patchbay into own prototype summing box/controller and from there into Adcom/Williams, from there with cheap QED classic79 cables to the one15's. Previously the summing to amp was Van Damme standard mic cable. All sounded great.

Now things sound too aggressive in the top and too tight in the bottom. BUT things also sound more revealing! The differences between records have become bigger. Just hardy ANY records' vocals sound pleasant and hihats too just hurt.

I will go try straight from the Madison to the amp with the TPR now and see what happens then. Another thought that came to me earlier is that maybe the TPR has pulled the covers off the cheap QED classic79 speaker cable. But then surely I wouldn't be losing bass heft, and I definitely am.

Off to try the DA to amp.
Old 1 week ago
  #45
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Ok, DA straight to amp with the TPR sounds a tiniest bit different, but doesn't solve the issues at all. No better in that respect.

The thing is I didn't expect this to happen at all....lol, I mean cables going too essy? So when I soldered the TPR up I actually scavenged the connectors of the previous Van Damme, so now there is no quick way to compare either...

Can't be asked now but might just have to put them back on the VanDamme in the morning if I still hear what I am hearing now. Curious now what they will be like for mic cables. Might be awesome actually, especially for acoustic guitar me thinks. Regardless whether they stay in my monitoring. Try that tomorrow too.
Old 1 week ago
  #46
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Ok, DA straight to amp with the TPR sounds a tiniest bit different, but doesn't solve the issues at all. No better in that respect.

The thing is I didn't expect this to happen at all....lol, I mean cables going too essy? So when I soldered the TPR up I actually scavenged the connectors of the previous Van Damme, so now there is no quick way to compare either...

Can't be asked now but might just have to put them back on the VanDamme in the morning if I still hear what I am hearing now. Curious now what they will be like for mic cables. Might be awesome actually, especially for acoustic guitar me thinks. Regardless whether they stay in my monitoring. Try that tomorrow too.
Please forgive the silly question, but you did verify all the XLR connections, polarity etc. ? I am just looking for reasons why you have such odd results. Nothing shorted etc?
Old 1 week ago
  #47
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalGrease View Post
Please forgive the silly question, but you did verify all the XLR connections, polarity etc. ? I am just looking for reasons why you have such odd results. Nothing shorted etc?


You think I'm pulling a 180? Nope, definitely not.
Old 1 week ago
  #48
Lives for gear
 

Thread Starter
Hi Karloff,

I'd advise just listening without doing hard A/B comparisons for the time being and getting accustomed to the sound. When you go back to comparing, also give some solo vocal or speech a shot. I find that to be very useful.

With the TPR and the whole Amphion monitors, amps, and speaker cable setup, I find that the rig has become very revealing of changes upstream (both digital and analog). I find the TPR to be stable within the neutral and uncoloured range. However, with this rig it is certainly possible for example to make the sound more hard, bright and more upfront vs. having the soundstage more back and smooth sounding without any harshness or digital sounding...all as a result of changing the source/transport that feeds my DAC (iMac vs. Bryston BDP-1). Yes, the upstream gear should be more immune to these changes, but nonetheless, the differences exist and the Amphions present them very clearly.

I don't know what might be the particular case in your environment, but I wouldn't rule out the TPR outright. It 'may' actually be revealing problems/sonic character of upstream gear better than before. I think I have mines setup similar to yours with minimal toe-in.
Old 1 week ago
  #49
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

That is what I am doing. I'll roll with it for a minute and see what happens tomorrow. Do some test recording with the TRP mic cables, just to throw some more data into the brew.

There is no doubt at all that regardless of these tangy issues and lightness in the bottom, there is new, extra information about stuff upstream. Most definitely. And more info in listening to mixes. What there also is, is seemingly more black. Lower background hash. More black, like someone finally revelled to you that you had been working through a very quiet bit of white noise and it got taken away.
Old 1 week ago
  #50
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Not had time to do any mic cable stuff, but when firing up this morning it still immediately felt hard/harsh as fcuk. And light round the bottom. But still with that ultra definition thing going on. So been playing it all day while doing other stuff. Can't believe I am hoping for cable breakin. But I want to keep the new good bits......I'll run with it.

It's almost like it turned my one15s into ultra NS10's, aggressive and light. lol BUT full of info. More info than before. Just more 'adapt to the speaker' headstate. let's see how this goes after a week or so. I can afford to run with it for a few days just now.
Old 1 week ago
  #51
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Not had time to do any mic cable stuff, but when firing up this morning it still immediately felt hard/harsh as fcuk. And light round the bottom. But still with that ultra definition thing going on. So been playing it all day while doing other stuff. Can't believe I am hoping for cable breakin. But I want to keep the new good bits......I'll run with it.

It's almost like it turned my one15s into ultra NS10's, aggressive and light. lol BUT full of info. More info than before. Just more 'adapt to the speaker' headstate. let's see how this goes after a week or so. I can afford to run with it for a few days just now.
I really sympathize with your dilemma. Suddenly everything is open to questioning.

I know you spent a long time finding the optimum position for your One15s, but perhaps....?
Old 1 week ago
  #52
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalGrease View Post
I really sympathize with your dilemma. Suddenly everything is open to questioning.

I know you spent a long time finding the optimum position for your One15s, but perhaps....?
Hmm. Not sure how juggling placement would make a massive difference in the essyness though....
Old 1 week ago
  #53
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Hmm. Not sure how juggling placement would make a massive difference in the essyness though....
The angle of the speakers might help. Placement might help with bass, if the previous cables were "bass heavy" then you might have compensated with placement.

Just trying suggestions that do not involve test-driving new D/A converters (which in my experience are often the source of harshness).
Old 1 week ago
  #54
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalGrease View Post
The angle of the speakers might help. Placement might help with bass, if the previous cables were "bass heavy" then you might have compensated with placement.

Just trying suggestions that do not involve test-driving new D/A converters (which in my experience are often the source of harshness).
Thanks for trying. But the idea that the Madison is naturally THIS harsh and the VanDamme cable somehow kept this from me is too weird. I am talking about harshness that makes you think M-Audio ten years ago.
Old 1 week ago
  #55
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Thanks for trying. But the idea that the Madison is naturally THIS harsh and the VanDamme cable somehow kept this from me is too weird. I am talking about harshness that makes you think M-Audio ten years ago.
Wow. That is extreme. I have no idea what could be the cause of that result. Did someone slip you a pair of Hosa cables by any chance? Aside from the extra info delivered by these new cables, your description sounds like my Hosa cables.

Those are so awful that I won't give them away because of the bad Karma that would befall me.
Old 1 week ago
  #56
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalGrease View Post
Wow. That is extreme. I have no idea what could be the cause of that result. Did someone slip you a pair of Hosa cables by any chance? Aside from the extra info delivered by these new cables, your description sounds like my Hosa cables.

Those are so awful that I won't give them away because of the bad Karma that would befall me.
Nope, is definitely the real thing.
Old 1 week ago
  #57
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Nope, is definitely the real thing.
All I can say is that I am getting clean clear sweetness, tight punchy bass.

Just as I had a surprise recently when swapping in a different amplifier, I would recommend some experiments.
Old 1 week ago
  #58
Gear Addict
 

Karloff, what brand of connectors are you using, I would suggest replacing with Neutrik with silver pins if you're not using them.
Old 6 days ago
  #59
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sd270 View Post
Karloff, what brand of connectors are you using, I would suggest replacing with Neutrik with silver pins if you're not using them.
They are gold VanDamme on the TRS side. On the other side gold phonos, as this is a special lead from balanced TRS, dropping one leg, to phono into the unbalanced Adcom input. Hence, no pins......
Old 6 days ago
  #60
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Ok, so this is now getting weird......today, firing the rig up it feels definitely different. Like the bass is loosening up and the top softening just a tad. Yesterday when I fired it up the first impression was 'fcuk, that's harsh' and today (I let it play a fair bit yesterday while doing other stuff) the first impression was more like "Oooohh!". Sill bright up top and tight in the bottom. But not as painfully bright and not as lifelessly stuck/tight in the bottom.

Fukkin hell, are the hifi tribers ( for any unexplained future science reason) right, or what??

I am definitely sticking with it now! Getting plretty excited here as the sound now is sort of like liquid metal. With BLACK backdrop. I LOVE the black backdrop. Insane how a cable change can do that. And Van Damme isn't exactly crap, so I didn't come from Hosa.....lol

What a weird experience, not something I had thought I signed up for when buying this stuff, but this is getting really good now....unexplained and weird. But good. I'm ok with unexplainable good, as long as it goes good. More science fiction reports as I experience them....lol
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump