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How Can I Stop Piezo Double-Triggering?
Old 3 days ago
  #1
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ryevick's Avatar
 

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How Can I Stop Piezo Double-Triggering?

I am attempting something a bit off the wall... I have a piezo disc trigger attached to the bottom of my foot that I want to use to trigger a kick drum. About 80-90% of the time I'm getting double-triggers. I've seen other people talk about the problem but not in a way that would help my situation. I will be doing this for a mobile recording situation through a KAT Multipad (I've reduced the KAT trigger sensitivity to the lowest setting), into Studio One 3 Pro and finally inside Steven Slate SSD4 Platinum.

Does anyone have any type of suggestions on how I can resolve this either through some type of tweak to the actual piezo disc or through some type of double-trigger reduction application? It would help me if I could even just find out what is causing it to do this. I may be able to work out a solution but not until I know the cause of the problem.

Thanks!

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Last edited by ryevick; 3 days ago at 05:16 AM..
Old 3 days ago
  #2
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I know a bit about what you speak of.

If you are triggering a sample with a very light sound - like a foot tapping on a piece of wood or something low-impact - you need a fair amount of sensitivity. Unfortunately, that amount of sensitivity means it will be likely to double trigger when you release your foot. Things like foam rubber can make noise when you depress them and when you release them.

Have a look at the hardware you are using to see where the sounds are coming from - but i've found the answer is to make sure that your wanted trigger noise is a good sharp shock, that is significantly louder than any unwanted noise or rebound.

I use Roland KT10 kick trigger pedals. But other kick pedals use a similar principle - a good heavy weight, with a good lever action, hiting a rubber pad with a decent fast crack.

If you are trying to trigger with a foot on a piece of wood or some - even if you wear heavy boots and put tacks in them, a soft, low velocity impact isn't very loud, and the rebound will probably be nearly as loud. Or any squishy materials will make sound as they uncompress.

Hope that helps.
Old 3 days ago
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
I know a bit about what you speak of.

If you are triggering a sample with a very light sound - like a foot tapping on a piece of wood or something low-impact - you need a fair amount of sensitivity. Unfortunately, that amount of sensitivity means it will be likely to double trigger when you release your foot. Things like foam rubber can make noise when you depress them and when you release them.

Have a look at the hardware you are using to see where the sounds are coming from - but i've found the answer is to make sure that your wanted trigger noise is a good sharp shock, that is significantly louder than any unwanted noise or rebound.

I use Roland KT10 kick trigger pedals. But other kick pedals use a similar principle - a good heavy weight, with a good lever action, hiting a rubber pad with a decent fast crack.

If you are trying to trigger with a foot on a piece of wood or some - even if you wear heavy boots and put tacks in them, a soft, low velocity impact isn't very loud, and the rebound will probably be nearly as loud. Or any squishy materials will make sound as they uncompress.

Hope that helps.

Hmmm... interesting. That makes sense. I really want to keep the method I'm using having the trigger either on the floor or strapped to the bottom of my foot. I need to give that some thought. I didn't notice if it was happening when I released or maybe also when I struck the trigger but I'm sure your right. Have figure a way to modify the method of impact.
Old 3 days ago
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
There are ways around this but it maybe something you have to either built yourself of find commercially. The circuit I am thinking about is called a one shot. You trigger it once and after a built in time delay it lets you trigger it again thereby stopping the double triggering. The delay can be set with a simple RC network. I will dig around some and see if I can find some circuits that will work. Maybe Richard has some ideas and will chime in.
Old 2 days ago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I will dig around some and see if I can find some circuits that will work. Maybe Richard has some ideas and will chime in.
I would appreciate that! Thank you
Old 2 days ago
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
The circuit I am thinking about is called a one shot. You trigger it once and after a built in time delay it lets you trigger it again thereby stopping the double triggering. The delay can be set with a simple RC network.
Years ago I made this exact thing as a project in school. Mine was a piezo pickup stuck on a drum practice pad, and the output was a bpm display of the practice speed. I think i used the good old 555 timer for the one shot to "debounce" the signal before the micro. The only thing is that since the one shot drives the output to the rail, you would lose any amplitude infomation that might be used for volume variations. You just get a square pulse out whose duration is set with the rc time constant. This may or may not work well with the input you are sending it to.
Old 2 days ago
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Here you go https://www.google.com/search?q=sche...HcvkCTYQsAQIHQ

Any one who has played around with a 555 IC can probably help you figure out what is the best setup. What you are trying to do is only have one shot from the trigger instead of two and that is what a one shot is all about. Best of luck! (You are probably going to have to do some experimenting to get it to be exactly what you are looking for including changing the time constants of the RC circuit components. I would suggest using a "breadboard" to try out new combinations)
Old 2 days ago
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Well I really would rather find something commercially. You would think there would already be software to address this. Similar to a noise gate or filter. Something that would allow the first trigger instance to pass and not allow another instance to pass until 1/3 or maybe 1/2 of a second passed or whatever you choose per an adjustable setting. The double-triggers happen very quickly, faster than a person plays (a kick). Maybe even some type of quantized setting could work.

Does anyone know of something like this?

Last edited by ryevick; 2 days ago at 09:36 PM..
Old 2 days ago
  #9
Gear Nut
 

I can't think of anything that is time based like that.

If the second trigger is lower in amplitude than the first you might have better luck if you decrease the sensitivity. You would have to get used to tapping hard enough to trigger, but maybe the decreased sensitivity will block the second trigger.
Old 1 day ago
  #10
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The commercial drum brains all have debounce built in - it's essential. I'm usually triggering a Roland or Alesis drum brain, and they allow you to adjust a lot of parameters including the length of this debounce time.

If you can increase the intensity of your attack transient, then you can adjust the sensitivity so that unwanted bounces and noise are filtered out. If you aren't using a drum brain I would suggest that you at least use a noise gate. The TC Sentry is very fast and flexible. But with the amount of money and faffing about that might be required, I would suggest you just buy a cheap drum brain such as a Roland TM2. It can play your own samples from an SD card. You can have four seperate triggers and sounds.

And if you want to trigger more than on sound, the need for the special filtering in a drum brain is even greater. Because, apart from noise and bounces, when you have more than one trigger, the same sound triggers them all. That's where you can assign them to a group in a drum brain, and when it gets basically the same sound from all triggers, it works out which one is loudest and just triggers that.

I think this is one area where it's probably best not to try to re-invent the wheel ... the drum brain designers have been doing this for a while and got it sorted.
Old 1 day ago
  #11
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If you want to trigger analog-sounding drums ... have a look at a Nord Drum 2 ...
Old 19 hours ago
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
I think this is one area where it's probably best not to try to re-invent the wheel ... the drum brain designers have been doing this for a while and got it sorted.
I understand your viewpoint but with all due respect, I couldn't disagree with this statement more. Innovation must push boundries in order for progress to take place. I'm sure Roland would agree.
Old 10 hours ago
  #13
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
I had a friend a couple of years ago that I helped work out some bugs in some stomp boxes he was designing for himself. He was a novice in electronics but a very quick learner. After a few false starts he got the hang of what he was doing and is now making custom stomp boxes for some real money.

To the OP. There is so much to learn and if you want to do this there are probably a lot of others who are having the same problem so if you can come up with an innovative idea you may be able to help others or sell them a product that will do what they want. Never be afraid to experiment and challenge yourself.

FWIW
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